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Respect Your Elders v2 - Galactic Boogaloo [Warhammer Lizardmen Quest]

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RaptorusMaximus said:
something something Parasites don't deserve to live something something we're sapient we can do what we want something something I think they're useless something something manifest destiny something something fuck the bugs.
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Why dont they deserve to live though? I mean, we feed animals to our carnosaurs, is there anything more moral about slaughtering animals en masse to feed our war machine versus what the Ayacmanik do?

Like, walk me through your thinking here. Its been sufficiently long that I kinda want to revisit the topic. Maybe my thinking has changed that I can see the rational behind your thinking.
 
Void Stalker said:
Oh and on building a new city it provides a few major benefits: 1st more city actions (2 at 2nd level), 2nd once we build enough we can increase our geomantic web to level 3 and 3rd it spawns more population for us to have available. So Plan Dispelling and Turtling is adding two actions to our pool for the next turn.
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Yeah, though it is important to note that at this moment in time and for the near future more city actions are much less needed than more Slann floating around. i.e we are somewhat having difficulty using our city actions because we are kinda running out of things to do that don't involve "Punch the Orks" and we're very sensibly waiting to do that because we need our Mind Fog gone first.

I at least experienced that in my plan set up. Plus, while there is merit to building a new city, getting it up to snuff with our other cities infrastructure wise is somewhat expensive when you consider that we would have to put in four actions to it at least to get it to level 3 and add a forging district, along with the expenditure of actions to put forging districts in our other cities and leaving two free for other stuff. Whereas right now we can improve Xlanhuapec to level three now, then when we unlock forging districts we can spend four actions doing that and have four actions free. Those four actions can build a new city, and we can spend hero actions to get it to level 2 and save an action because it will come with Forging Districts.

It is sort of hinging on the principles the Lizardmen have used for ages which is "Take what you have, maintain it, improve it, then strike", given their defensive specializations.
 
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BungieONI said:
Yeah, though it is important to note that at this moment in time and for the near future more city actions are much less needed than more Slann floating around. i.e we are somewhat having difficulty using our city actions because we are kinda running out of things to do that don't involve "Punch the Orks" and we're very sensibly waiting to do that because we need our Mind Fog gone first.

I at least experienced that in my plan set up. Plus, while there is merit to building a new city, getting it up to snuff with our other cities infrastructure wise is somewhat expensive when you consider that we would have to put in four actions to it at least to get it to level 3 and add a forging district, along with the expenditure of actions to put forging districts in our other cities and leaving two free for other stuff. Whereas right now we can improve Xlanhuapec to level three now, then when we unlock forging districts we can spend four actions doing that and have four actions free. Those four actions can build a new city, and we can spend hero actions to get it to level 2 and save an action because it will come with Forging Districts.

It is sort of hinging on the principles the Lizardmen have used for ages which is "Take what you have, maintain it, improve it, then strike", given their defensive specializations.
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It is 6 actions to build a new city at level 2, and we need a bunch to go to geo level 3. So that one level 2 city increases our pop growth more then bumping a city from level 2 to level 3 and it is providing 2 more actions with only one of those needed on forge district next turn. So we will have 5 city actions next turn that are not on forging district, enough to setup another level 2 with only one hero action added to it instead of two. Bumping cities up to level 3 is worth it once we do the level 3 geomantic alignment at this point, otherwise we start the action gain by building a new city. Also a city this turn puts us two city actions up each turn and get us to the point that we can build two cities a turn a turn sooner as well (putting us 4 up at that point).
 
Yeah, basically our growth is exponential, and it snowballs the sooner we start.

It's 6 out of 8 Actions to build a Level 2 City. 7 Actions if you want to purge around them.

Upgrading a City will not give us any more actions. Creating a New City will give us 2 Extra Actions, enough that if we wished to, we could build a Level 2 and a Level 1 City come turn 6 which could then be upgraded and allow us to expand even more.

Upgrading Xlanhuapec will give us a bonus 10K Saurus, 20K Skinks, and 2K Kroxigor.

Creating a New Level 2 City will give us a bonus 20K Saurus, 40K Skinks, and 4K Kroxigor.

We get more actions, more lizardmen, and more growth the earlier we expand.

We should start now and get the ball rolling. Not cower and hide while the bugs and orks are occupied with each other.
 
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Void Stalker said:
It is 6 actions to build a new city at level 2, and we need a bunch to go to geo level 3. So that one level 2 city increases our pop growth more then bumping a city from level 2 to level 3 and it is providing 2 more actions with only one of those needed on forge district next turn. So we will have 5 city actions next turn that are not on forging district, enough to setup another level 2 with only one hero action added to it instead of two. Bumping cities up to level 3 is worth it once we do the level 3 geomantic alignment at this point, otherwise we start the action gain by building a new city. Also a city this turn puts us two city actions up each turn and get us to the point that we can build two cities a turn a turn sooner as well (putting us 4 up at that point).
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But building cities exponentially, or at least rapidly, is not militarily secure for the Lizardmen. For two reasons:

The first is population. To populate those cities to the point that they are useful defensively will require pulling Lizardmen from our current cities, of which only two of our oldest Level 3s can really support that frequently. And they can only support it for about two new cities at best(~500,000 Saurus). To fix this we have to transfer population in large numbers, whether that is enough to require an action is kinda up to Xantalos though.

The second is that we will need multiple cities, and with the Ork problem, will be expanding into battlefields which makes our life difficult eventually.

If we successfully research forging districts in Turn 5 Results, and build a city in the Turn 5 results, then on turn six we will have to spend five actions on forging districts. But we'll have 2 level 2 cities, one of which will need time to get even to the level of Xlanhuapec unless we transfer population. And during this the Orks and Aya are pleasantly unbothered.

Basically, I object strenuously to the idea of a city every turn, if we are going to force them to level 2. Much better in my opinion to take it slower and have them at level three, such that when we get the last city required to have level 3 Web we just have full action count of three per city and we are taking the time to fully unpin the Mind Fog and keeping the Ork situation contained.
 
BungieONI said:
But building cities exponentially, or at least rapidly, is not militarily secure for the Lizardmen. For two reasons:

The first is population. To populate those cities to the point that they are useful defensively will require pulling Lizardmen from our current cities, of which only two of our oldest Level 3s can really support that frequently. And they can only support it for about two new cities at best(~500,000 Saurus). To fix this we have to transfer population in large numbers, whether that is enough to require an action is kinda up to Xantalos though.

The second is that we will need multiple cities, and with the Ork problem, will be expanding into battlefields which makes our life difficult eventually.

If we successfully research forging districts in Turn 5 Results, and build a city in the Turn 5 results, then on turn six we will have to spend five actions on forging districts. But we'll have 2 level 2 cities, one of which will need time to get even to the level of Xlanhuapec unless we transfer population. And during this the Orks and Aya are pleasantly unbothered.

Basically, I object strenuously to the idea of a city every turn, if we are going to force them to level 2. Much better in my opinion to take it slower and have them at level three, such that when we get the last city required to have level 3 Web we just have full action count of three per city and we are taking the time to fully unpin the Mind Fog and keeping the Ork situation contained.
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I'd say it is, defenses count for alot, actions count for more, and Slann free of the Mind Fog count for the most. The Bugs and Orks are killing each other. Right now is LITTERALLY the best time to expand that are we are ever going to get on this planet.

Also The orks and Bugs are fight to the East? of Xlanhuapec. So...just build West. It's that simple. We're on a massive continental ring 4000K Wide that goes around the entire planet. We're hardly pressed for space to expand.

Nope, just have Iwannabuildthat spend his action slot building them up in our original 4 cities, cause there's WOG that if we finished Forging District Research on Turn 5, then a Forging District WILL be built in a city created that very same turn.

The Orks will stay unbothered by the bugs keep the pressure on them, especially if we Geomantically wreck their landing zone on the other continent, cause we can simply build AWAY FROM THEM.

Basically, I think a new city every turn is the only way for us to actually reach Magnitude 3 before Turn 18 or 20, and the sooner we reach Magnitude 3, the sooner we can trivially crush any and all opposition on this planet thanks to Magnitude 4 Rituals being completely broken.
 
Professor Vesca said:
Why dont they deserve to live though? I mean, we feed animals to our carnosaurs, is there anything more moral about slaughtering animals en masse to feed our war machine versus what the Ayacmanik do?

Like, walk me through your thinking here. Its been sufficiently long that I kinda want to revisit the topic. Maybe my thinking has changed that I can see the rational behind your thinking.
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Um...that's not my opinion. That's my summarization of what I've taken from Nix's arguments. Which in essence boil down to 'I don't think we need them and I don't like them, so fuck the bugs'.

Where my argument/opinion boils down to 'I think the oversoul is cool, I don't like Genocide in general, I'd like to try and take the Lizardmen down a different, more understanding path than their past, and I'd like to at least see if we can communicate with and find use in the Aya before we exterminate them.'
 
RaptorusMaximus said:
Um...that's not my opinion. That's my summarization of what I've taken from Nix's arguments. Which in essence boil down to 'I don't think we need them and I don't like them, so fuck the bugs'.
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Along with a side of them becoming a massive snowballing threat if they managed to possess a not retarded one of our dudes and become actually intelligent as they hunger for more and more bodies.


RaptorusMaximus said:
Where my argument/opinion boils down to 'I think the oversoul is cool, I don't like Genocide in general, I'd like to try and take the Lizardmen down a different, more understanding path than their past, and I'd like to at least see if we can communicate with and find use in the Aya before we exterminate them.'
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Also. Whew boi, this is 40K, your not going to last long with that opinion on Genocide. Not to mention we will have plenty of chances to get vassal races in the future. The Lizardmen exterminating the bugs won't set them on some permanent path of killing all non Lizardmen they find.
 
Professor Vesca said:
Why do you think the prophecy applies to them, and why do you find them uninteresting?
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I'm unsure that the prophecy applies to them, but based on them being made by some apparently purposeful process I'm advocating caution and am assuming the worst until we take a deeper look. Also, better safe than sorry.

As for why they are uninteresting, it really is personal preference for me- I don't like hiveminds thematically. I prefer individuals.
 
RaptorusMaximus said:
Um...that's not my opinion. That's my summarization of what I've taken from Nix's arguments. Which in essence boil down to 'I don't think we need them and I don't like them, so fuck the bugs'.

Where my argument/opinion boils down to 'I think the oversoul is cool, I don't like Genocide in general, I'd like to try and take the Lizardmen down a different, more understanding path than their past, and I'd like to at least see if we can communicate with and find use in the Aya before we exterminate them.'
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Oh, my bad. I misunderstood.

SurpriseMe said:
I'm unsure that the prophecy applies to them, but based on them being made by some apparently purposeful process I'm advocating caution and am assuming the worst until we take a deeper look. Also, better safe than sorry.

As for why they are uninteresting, it really is personal preference for me- I don't like hiveminds thematically. I prefer individuals.
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Fair enough, I have a similar issue with Humans and Human-like races. Although I just dont play them as opposed to exterminating them, but thats a long time coming, we should have plenty of time to make a well informed decision on the matter.

Nix's Warden said:
Along with a side of them becoming a massive snowballing threat if they managed to possess a not retarded one of our dudes and become actually intelligent as they hunger for more and more bodies.



Also. Whew boi, this is 40K, your not going to last long with that opinion on Genocide. Not to mention we will have plenty of chances to get vassal races in the future. The Lizardmen exterminating the bugs won't set them on some permanent path of killing all non Lizardmen they find.
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Genocide.

Honestly, most of the galaxies problems come from mass murder, rather than be solved by it. In the War in Heaven, the Enslavers were drawn to the materium by the mass suffering of the galaxy being murdered and sacrificed. The Gods of Chaos are theorized to have been born out of that mass suffering. The Necrontyr lost their souls to the mass slaughter of their race to serve starving Gods. They turned to those same gods in a bid to stave off the mass suffering of their entire race to genetic deterioration. Many races that serve Chaos are driven into their arms by a rabid, uncaring Imperium, who chooses to kill them specifically because it is convenient and easy for them to do so. Its why the Great Crusades had such a policy when dealing with alien races, and its why the Imperium continues to carry out such a policy in the modern era. Now there is something to be said for blowing up a planet lost to Chaos or to the Warp, because the Warp IS inherently corrupting and evil.

Heck, Chaos itself moves to corrupt other races that could have an alternative to the dangerous and risky warp travel, wiping them out whole-sale and turning the survivors towards their own purpose.

And yet, the Imperiums policies when dealing with psykers create as many of their problems as they solve, because their methods are horrific and crude. Their policy of genocide turns potential allies into enemies that they then have to deal with. Mass murder can be a useful tool yes, but unlike the Imperium, we have the knowledge and tools to actually deal with our problems in an effective and efficient manner. Dealing with our problems in ways that do not involve showing up and shooting everyone involved in the face. It is an attitude that turned the other races of Mallus against us, where once we had potential allies, we turned them into enemies. Enemies who saw us as giant loot pinatas.

And because of that, we had to flee Mallus. It took the loss of the planet left in our stewardship by the old ones for us to realize that we were failing them.

It is kind of sad, really. The galaxy has no one to show them differently.
 
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Xantalos said:
it is technically possible for me to produce an update from this, even if it is very monofocused.
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Now I want to see that update.

Nix's Warden said:
Also, the sooner we hit Magnitude 3, the sooner we can cast a Magnitude 4 Ritual, which will basically allows us to kill every ork on the northern continent, or every bug on the central continent, at once!

Mag 4 rituals are crazy shit.
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I mean
Xantalos said:
Magnitude 3:
- Continental Alteration - Alter the shape of continents. Notable examples of use are Mazdamundi's ruination of the Karaz Ankor and (although not caused by the lizardmen) the Sundering of Ulthuan.
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I think we could do that now.

I'm unsure about hitting the Fog now.
Xantalos said:
the fog grew stronger the more slann were in its thrall
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There's a lot of Slann in the Fog right now. We're hitting it when it's strong. Wasn't that the thing everyone was cautioning against, going in half-cocked against this thing? I'd prefer to wait a turn, see if we get better rolls next decade.

Plan to the effect

[X] Plan Stay On Target, Stay On Target
-[X] Found New City/Improve City - 2 Itza Actions, 2 Xlanhuapec Actions, 2 Tlaxtlan Actions
-[X] Exploit the Jungle (Looking for that pseudo-dragon species we encountered, or any other useful flying unit.) - 2 Hexoatl Actions, Tiktaq'to, Chakax, Kroq-Gar
-[X] Expand Sotek's Cult - Teninhuan
-[X] Mind Fog: Alternate Solutions (Sotek, can't think of any other possible ideas) - Mazdamundi, 3 Third Gen Slann, 11 Fourth Gen Slann
-[X] Search Relic Vaults (Ranged Weapons) - 2 Third Generation Slann
-[X] Scry and Spy, Ork Edition (The Meks) - 6 Fourth Generation Slann
-[X] Scry and Spy, Ork Edition (The Warboss) - 1 Fourth Generation Slann
-[X] Slann Spawning Service (Chameleon Skinks) - 1 Fifth Generation Slann
-[X] Examine Tablets of the Old Ones (Forging Districts) - 23 Fifth Generation Slann, Awanabil'tat

This is more or less a prep turn, in this plan. Expanding Sotek's Cult to empower him and studying having him attack the Mind Fog to prep for the Mind Fog, while the Slann spawning Chameleon Skinks and the Slann scrying the Warboss are prepping for Behead the Beast, because I suspect we'll want to hit that up soon. Not purging the Ayacmanik, because I want them focused entirely on the Orks. Instead we're gathering new warbeasts, founding/improving a new city, searching the relic vaults for weapons, figuring out what the Meks are making and if we need to sink the fuckers, and getting Forging Districts up and running.
 
RaptorusMaximus said:
[X] Plan Stay On Target, Stay On Target

I like this one even more.
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Considering it does NOTHING to remove the Mind Fog this turn I fucking hate it. All those Slann could be spent giving dispelling and ensuring even more Slann for future turns but nope. Nothing but extremely short term gains at the expense of more then quadruple the Slann Numbers a few turns down the road.
 
Nix's Warden said:
Considering it does NOTHING to remove the Mind Fog this turn I fucking hate it. All those Slann could be spent giving dispelling and ensuring even more Slann for future turns but nope. Nothing but extremely short term gains at the expense of more then quadruple the Slann Numbers a few turns down the road.
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I know, but like I said, we aren't armed for it right now. It gets stronger the more Slann it has in its clutches, this is known. We are 484 Slann, this is known. There are 436 Slann still asleep right now, which is well below what even an average roll would give us. Thus, I feel like a Dispel action wouldn't gain all that much ground, while we have more productive things those Slann could be doing.
 
Fezzes said:
I know, but like I said, we aren't armed for it right now. It gets stronger the more Slann it has in its clutches, this is known. We are 484 Slann, this is known. There are 436 Slann still asleep right now, which is well below what even an average roll would give us. Thus, I feel like a Dispel action wouldn't gain all that much ground, while we have more productive things those Slann could be doing.
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Phone posting before bed but that's bullshit. What are we supposed to just let the fog keep infecting us until we get lucky and roll 100+ 5th Gens again? Fuck that. We have enough power to attempt a dispel,it doesn't matter that it will be tough, it HAS to be done, and the more Slann we free the faster it will go.

You think five 3rd Gens and a bunch of other Slann won't do much? I think it will do plenty and your just unwilling to actually put in the time and effort to get the job done.
 
I'm honestly on the fence with the parasites. The fact they are parasites doesn't really do them any favors but the new information about them does provide insight. They appear to have been given two paths by their creators with one being benevolent and the other malevolent. Right now they're nothing but an animal thus incapable of making moral decisions unlike us. Giving them sapience is a fifty/fifty chance of the becoming our first ally to control/enslave or a potential plague to destroy.

However, the WOG from the GM says that whether we kill or spare the Aya isn't gonna deadlock us a single path so future meetings depends on choice and info. We're probably gonna meet a lot of species that are either neutral or good and thus should be propagated. But we're also gonna probably meet a lot of assholes who gonna need to be bombarded back to the stone or outright exterminated for the galaxy's sake. The last depends on whether they can be taught to be better.
 
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