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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Twelve)
- Thread starter Mr Zoat
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Ashtabula
Hey, I can't remember. But did Aqualad ever get the whole "Your Father is actually Black Manta" talk?
stormturmoil
CALChemist
I'm getting more of an 'Ultimen' than 'Hyperclan' feel to this though; I think they're actual Heroes but the leadership might be playing a shell game, luring them in with offers while instilling the idea that the League won't have them because they think they're too good for them (Echoing ther Fate of Arm-Falls-Off-boy, anyone?), or even that the League itself is corrupt (and the SIs antics may have aggravated this)
This creates a feeling of 'us and them', as well as some useful 'Underdog' feeling, which then makes them susceptible to manipulation.
So it could be an attempt at a private metahuman army, it could be a Cadmus-esque 'Quis Custodiet ipsos Custodes?' organisation, or it could be legit.
- Location
- Hampden Park
Not as yet. Remember, the SI has never encountered Black Manta, so while he knows that Calvin Durham isn't Kaldur's biological father he has no real reason to draw attention to it.
- Location
- Ashtabula
But after the whole Aquaman's unknown son thing came to light, didn't Kalder ask if OL knew anything secret about him, and OL said yes, to which Kalder fought down his emotions and basically said "I want to know later."? I believe it was during Titanfall? The Oceanus arc yeah?
- Location
- texas
Didn't realize you were going to have Bang Babies, since Static was the product of Reach metagene research in YJ, I thought you might switch that to a "he can gain the powers of people with the metagene by drinking their blood."
So Quantum Juice is going to be a thing then.
Well that ought to be interesting.
- Location
- Estonia
Shouldn't it be can't resist? Otherwise the argument feels kinda incongruous.
- Location
- Hampden Park
No. If you nurture a small plant, it lives to become a big plant.
- Location
- Estonia
So... "show to Mist that there are parts of modern civilization that could replace the need for his intervention one day, if they are properly nurtured" or something like that?
That would explain the confusion. I thought the argument was that the current supervillain problems aren't something current human society should be expected to be able to cope with. So more arguing based on current moral need, than hope for possible future improvement.
Personally, I consider the former to be the stronger moral argument, but I can see how the latter might be seen as probably more appealing to Mist.
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- Location
- USA
Most likely some of it is legit, and the rest of it is using that part as a smoke screen.
Yes, this happened. @Mr Zoat has this been retconned?
GGG appears in canon in season 2, though since that had to do with the Reach invasion it likely has been butterflied.
- Location
- Hampden Park
Less retconned, more forgotten. In that case, yes, Kaldur is aware that Calvin Durham is not his natural father.
esotericist
A Weary Hand
- Location
- Lacey, WA
I know it's just me being a me-specific kind of weird, but my brain keeps relabeling "Alliance of the Just" as "Alliance of the Merely".
Merely what? I cannot say.
No, seriously, I have no idea what goes on in my head sometimes.
There's also the fact that OL has a known history of scouting other supers for the league and the Team. And the fact that his soul-vision gives him insight into people.
Sure, his reputation took a couple of knocks due to his falling out with the JL and his recent religious... issues, but he still seems like the perfect person to go meet-and-greet a bunch of new heroes.
Chat with them, ask about their training. Look at their souls to see if they're in this for money or fame or something.
Then maybe have a quiet word about how ol' vinny is suspected to be the leader of a criminal syndicate.
'Your boss might be a supervillain' is a hard pill to swallow, but having a connection with the Justice League (no matter how distant) adds a lot of weight to your words.
Empiricist2
Let's play doctor!
- Location
- Baton Rouge
31st
League, or Justice League.
Joining back would seem kind of awkward given his role in the OLC. He'll be spending a lot of his time training Lanterns, leading them in battles, waging an actual war, and then spend his downtime with a group of teenagers and adults who have severe reservations about killing at all. I'm sure Kaldur and Canis won't have too much of an issue with it, both being trained as soldiers and one being from space hell, but I think nearly everyone else would find it really unsettling to hear about all the destruction that the SI is perfectly willing to cause, even if it's against the Reach. This compounds with the SI's stated position that there isn't any meaningful distinction between murder in a war and non state sanctioned murder.
I get that KF, M'gann, and the rest of them are rather mature for their ages, they have all seen some really horrible things, but that's not to the same level of being nonchalant about a guy who not just willingly kills ships and cities full of people, but does it through a tool that can only do those things when he very strongly desires that particular outcome. They were rather indecisive about killing Klarion, and Klarion was far worse than the majority of the soldiers that the SI will be describing as little more than increments to his body count.
- Location
- texas
Considering the patron of this group is an Intergang crime boss, probably not legit on that end.
Alpha Centurion, while heroic, apparently has no evildar whatsoever. He not only thought his alien patrons were Guardians of the Universe types and not basically the Reach, but he accepted corporate sponsorship from Lexcorp under Lex's wife The Contessa, and I believe was interested in the "widow Luther" romantically if memory serves.
So him accidentally working for bad guys is essentially business as usual for him.
- Location
- Ashtabula
I don't even really think it occurs to OL all that often. He sees them as his peers, his ingroup, and finally, his friends. I have friends who are ten years younger then I am, and friends who are 20 years older.
- Location
- Alabama
In-universe, it's not a team for teenagers. It's a team to train new, usually younger superheroes while acting in covert situations, under League supervision. As mentioned in this update, part of the League's intention is to make sure that there are people who can take the reins in the long run.
Out of universe, it started that way but certainly wasn't by the time that S2 started. The OG team, apart from Dick, were in their 20s.
- Location
- Hampden Park
Thank you, corrected.
BoredMan
When my fist clenches crack it open🎶
Hestia&theCourt
Turns out we're plural too.
- Location
- In transition
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Either that or Eris is screwing with the proofreaders.
Grind (part 10)
- Location
- Hampden Park
31st October
18:58 GMT -5
Today was… Nice. Just Tula, Kaldur and I attempting and largely failing to find any further leads on the rash of thefts while Garth and Canis did little better.
Querying the families of the deceased produced… Nothing actionable. They reported that the people who disappeared had been mildly confused and a little distressed before their disappearances… Which could indicate a chemical compound being used to alter their thoughts, or a form of telepathic control that has brain damage as a side effect. I'm not aware of any currently active telepaths on Earth whose abilities work like that, and from what M'gann told me martian telepathy generally doesn't have that sort of effect.
Canis seemed to be enjoying himself, less from having me back and more from the sheer disregard for life shown by the perpetrators of the thefts. He and Garth were able to track one of the escaped thieves down, but sadly whatever kills them doesn't require them to be capable of moving. Whatever they stole had already been moved, and an analysis of the site yielded no clues about where it had gone.
And now I've got a meeting with-
"Hey! Orange Lantern!"
-Arnus, to talk about the Nabu situation. I wave with my right hand as Raquel flies over the Dakota City skyline and comes up alongside me. "Good evening, Rocket."
"You here to see Icon?"
"Yes, I.. phoned ahead. Batman wants me to talk about Nabu with everyone in the Justice League before he'll sign off on me rejoining the team."
She frowns. "Why do you want to come back on the team?"
"Because it's where my friends are? Why?"
"I'm only on the team until I can join the Justice League. That's what it's for, ain't it? I mean, you're already an official Lantern, you're in a Lantern Corps… What do you get out of it?"
"If you put it like that, what do I get out of joining the Justice League?"
She blinks. "The zeta tube network? Cooperation from police all over the world? You get to look like a legitimate hero, rather than some guy in glowing armor?"
"My abilities as a Lantern are at their strongest when I fight beside people whom I identify with most strongly. I'm better with the team than the League. And it's not like I can't do my own thing in my own time."
"It would make Mister Scott happy."
I nod. "That's the best reason, but I'm not in a rush on that front any longer."
"Why? Did he stop being old?"
"Yes, effectively." She blinks. "Oh, were you not in the loop on that? I got him a new lantern, and he's now elementally enough that as long as he wears his ring he won't decay."
"Huh. Okay then. How's the.. search thing going?"
"Since I haven't been told what we're looking for, I'm not completely sure. No significant further progress was made today…"
"It's statues. Weird little statues."
"I.. don't think you're supposed to-."
"Are you gunna tell anyone how you found out?"
"Nno."
"You can't look for something when you don't know what you're looking for, can you?"
"I suppose not. Are you continuing the investigation this evening, or doing-" Arnus flies out from behind a block of flats and we alter course to meet him. "-local patrolling?"
"Local. Icon doesn't like me being out late on a school night." The three of us slow as we get to within speaking distance. "Where do you want me tonight?"
"I believe that Sadler would benefit from your oversight this evening. There has been a small spike in rates of petty theft lately."
"I'm on it." She turns in the air and accelerates northwards with a wave.
Hm. Okay. While I know 'Augustus Freeman' reasonably well -at least on the professional level- I don't know Arnus at all. Not his.. distinguishing characteristics. I know the things which he's done from Justice League records and Raquel's mentor boasting contests with Wallace, but on a personal level? Almost nothing.
"Is it appropriate to call you 'Arnus'?"
"It is a name for which I no longer have any use. Since we are in costume, I believe that 'Icon' would be more appropriate."
"Alright. As I.. said in my message, Batman has made my return to the team contingent on me talking about the Nabu situation with all members of the League. Personally, I'd rather have drawn a veil over the whole thing. So if there's anything you want to ask me or.. volunteer, now's the time."
"Why did you request that Wonder Woman's lasso be used during your testimony?"
"Spite. Oh, and the reasons I stated at the time. I had roughly planned to storm out, and having to repeat myself might have interrupted that."
"Spite. Because the lasso symbolises not merely factual truth but divine truth. Because you wished to indicate that you would speak honestly even when totally in the League's power, telling us something we did not wish to hear."
I nod. "Pretty much."
"In the Cooperative, we learned to be cautious of primitive truth compulsion techniques. The evidence indicates that they often bias the answers given. Do you believe that the character of your own answers was influenced by the lasso's magic?"
"Once or twice, yes. Generally, not sure. But I had intended to be confrontational from the start and didn't say anything that I regret substantially."
He nods. "Is there anything which you would like to ask me?"
I have been wondering… "Why was slavery abolished in the US in eighteen sixty five?"
His eyebrows rise very slightly. "I was referring to my negligent treatment of Giovanni Zatara."
"That's between you and either your god or your conscience, as you prefer. You telling me now won't change anything. But if you want to…"
"Slavery was abolished in eighteen sixty five because that was the earliest point after the civil war at which the legislation could be passed in the House and the Senate, and then ratified by the States. Can I safely assume from your question that you are curious as to why I -who arrived in the United States in eighteen ten- had not taken action to end it sooner?"
"I'm curious as to your reasoning. Your life pod reconstructed you as a baby, and you didn't know anything about Earth society. On the other hand, by the time you were… Say, fifteen? You would have known enough, and you were powerful enough that I don't think anyone around at the time could have stopped you."
"Because I believe that Earth society needed to learn to deal with the evil of slavery itself. To struggle with its conscience and learn from that struggle, rather than have a solution imposed upon it by a single man. I take it that you disagree?"
"In cases where the provocation is sufficient, yes. Slavery, slaughter, mass mutilation and mass mind control would result in me intervening, more or less regardless of other factors."
"I cannot swear to you that the route I took was the best for Earth society. I am aware that in the short term many people suffered who could otherwise have been saved. Are you certain that your interventions have maximised utility?"
"Not certain. I don't think a person ever can be."
He looks away for a moment. "I did not intervene in the matter of Nabu's occupation of Giovanni Zatara because I believed at the time that the arrangement was truly voluntary. I did not know that their joining could function without the host's consent. When you.. confronted us and I became more fully informed, I was surprised that other League members had allowed that state of affairs to continue. I certainly do not approve of Nabu's actions."
"And mine?"
"I found them disquieting. But I cannot say with any confidence that you were in the wrong."
I nod, following his gaze. "Anything else, or shall we spend the rest of the evening on crime prevention?"
"I have no further questions at this time."
18:58 GMT -5
Today was… Nice. Just Tula, Kaldur and I attempting and largely failing to find any further leads on the rash of thefts while Garth and Canis did little better.
Querying the families of the deceased produced… Nothing actionable. They reported that the people who disappeared had been mildly confused and a little distressed before their disappearances… Which could indicate a chemical compound being used to alter their thoughts, or a form of telepathic control that has brain damage as a side effect. I'm not aware of any currently active telepaths on Earth whose abilities work like that, and from what M'gann told me martian telepathy generally doesn't have that sort of effect.
Canis seemed to be enjoying himself, less from having me back and more from the sheer disregard for life shown by the perpetrators of the thefts. He and Garth were able to track one of the escaped thieves down, but sadly whatever kills them doesn't require them to be capable of moving. Whatever they stole had already been moved, and an analysis of the site yielded no clues about where it had gone.
And now I've got a meeting with-
"Hey! Orange Lantern!"
-Arnus, to talk about the Nabu situation. I wave with my right hand as Raquel flies over the Dakota City skyline and comes up alongside me. "Good evening, Rocket."
"You here to see Icon?"
"Yes, I.. phoned ahead. Batman wants me to talk about Nabu with everyone in the Justice League before he'll sign off on me rejoining the team."
She frowns. "Why do you want to come back on the team?"
"Because it's where my friends are? Why?"
"I'm only on the team until I can join the Justice League. That's what it's for, ain't it? I mean, you're already an official Lantern, you're in a Lantern Corps… What do you get out of it?"
"If you put it like that, what do I get out of joining the Justice League?"
She blinks. "The zeta tube network? Cooperation from police all over the world? You get to look like a legitimate hero, rather than some guy in glowing armor?"
"My abilities as a Lantern are at their strongest when I fight beside people whom I identify with most strongly. I'm better with the team than the League. And it's not like I can't do my own thing in my own time."
"It would make Mister Scott happy."
I nod. "That's the best reason, but I'm not in a rush on that front any longer."
"Why? Did he stop being old?"
"Yes, effectively." She blinks. "Oh, were you not in the loop on that? I got him a new lantern, and he's now elementally enough that as long as he wears his ring he won't decay."
"Huh. Okay then. How's the.. search thing going?"
"Since I haven't been told what we're looking for, I'm not completely sure. No significant further progress was made today…"
"It's statues. Weird little statues."
"I.. don't think you're supposed to-."
"Are you gunna tell anyone how you found out?"
"Nno."
"You can't look for something when you don't know what you're looking for, can you?"
"I suppose not. Are you continuing the investigation this evening, or doing-" Arnus flies out from behind a block of flats and we alter course to meet him. "-local patrolling?"
"Local. Icon doesn't like me being out late on a school night." The three of us slow as we get to within speaking distance. "Where do you want me tonight?"
"I believe that Sadler would benefit from your oversight this evening. There has been a small spike in rates of petty theft lately."
"I'm on it." She turns in the air and accelerates northwards with a wave.
Hm. Okay. While I know 'Augustus Freeman' reasonably well -at least on the professional level- I don't know Arnus at all. Not his.. distinguishing characteristics. I know the things which he's done from Justice League records and Raquel's mentor boasting contests with Wallace, but on a personal level? Almost nothing.
"Is it appropriate to call you 'Arnus'?"
"It is a name for which I no longer have any use. Since we are in costume, I believe that 'Icon' would be more appropriate."
"Alright. As I.. said in my message, Batman has made my return to the team contingent on me talking about the Nabu situation with all members of the League. Personally, I'd rather have drawn a veil over the whole thing. So if there's anything you want to ask me or.. volunteer, now's the time."
"Why did you request that Wonder Woman's lasso be used during your testimony?"
"Spite. Oh, and the reasons I stated at the time. I had roughly planned to storm out, and having to repeat myself might have interrupted that."
"Spite. Because the lasso symbolises not merely factual truth but divine truth. Because you wished to indicate that you would speak honestly even when totally in the League's power, telling us something we did not wish to hear."
I nod. "Pretty much."
"In the Cooperative, we learned to be cautious of primitive truth compulsion techniques. The evidence indicates that they often bias the answers given. Do you believe that the character of your own answers was influenced by the lasso's magic?"
"Once or twice, yes. Generally, not sure. But I had intended to be confrontational from the start and didn't say anything that I regret substantially."
He nods. "Is there anything which you would like to ask me?"
I have been wondering… "Why was slavery abolished in the US in eighteen sixty five?"
His eyebrows rise very slightly. "I was referring to my negligent treatment of Giovanni Zatara."
"That's between you and either your god or your conscience, as you prefer. You telling me now won't change anything. But if you want to…"
"Slavery was abolished in eighteen sixty five because that was the earliest point after the civil war at which the legislation could be passed in the House and the Senate, and then ratified by the States. Can I safely assume from your question that you are curious as to why I -who arrived in the United States in eighteen ten- had not taken action to end it sooner?"
"I'm curious as to your reasoning. Your life pod reconstructed you as a baby, and you didn't know anything about Earth society. On the other hand, by the time you were… Say, fifteen? You would have known enough, and you were powerful enough that I don't think anyone around at the time could have stopped you."
"Because I believe that Earth society needed to learn to deal with the evil of slavery itself. To struggle with its conscience and learn from that struggle, rather than have a solution imposed upon it by a single man. I take it that you disagree?"
"In cases where the provocation is sufficient, yes. Slavery, slaughter, mass mutilation and mass mind control would result in me intervening, more or less regardless of other factors."
"I cannot swear to you that the route I took was the best for Earth society. I am aware that in the short term many people suffered who could otherwise have been saved. Are you certain that your interventions have maximised utility?"
"Not certain. I don't think a person ever can be."
He looks away for a moment. "I did not intervene in the matter of Nabu's occupation of Giovanni Zatara because I believed at the time that the arrangement was truly voluntary. I did not know that their joining could function without the host's consent. When you.. confronted us and I became more fully informed, I was surprised that other League members had allowed that state of affairs to continue. I certainly do not approve of Nabu's actions."
"And mine?"
"I found them disquieting. But I cannot say with any confidence that you were in the wrong."
I nod, following his gaze. "Anything else, or shall we spend the rest of the evening on crime prevention?"
"I have no further questions at this time."
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- Location
- Hampden Park
No, that's intentional.
- Status