With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Twelve)

ThrawnCA · Apr 17, 2018

Hey, completely unrelated to the current chapter: @Mr Zoat I don't know whether you had any further plans for Felicity the Karnan, but I was thinking about where she might be able to go that would have the right mix of opportunities for growth and protection from exploitation...would it make sense for her to live at Shadowcrest and keep Zatanna company?

Jack Stargazer · Apr 17, 2018

Monshroud said:
I just hope that if Zauriel follows Paul to Themyscira, Thana will keep the "Evils of The God of Monotheism" down a notch.

Though considering that Lucifer ruled Hell for about 10 billion years, long before Christianity's concept of Hell came to be, I can't help but wonder if it'll turn out that it was in fact humanity who turned The Pit into an abode of true pain and horror.

If you read Sandman, that is actually how it works. The humans tortured in Hell are there because deep down they actually believe they have sinned and this is what they deserve. Look into Sandman #21-28 - Season of Mists. It's canon in this story, Zatanna mentioned the Plague of Ghosts earlier.

See here:

TheLastOne · Apr 17, 2018

Jack Stargazer said:
If you read Sandman, that is actually how it works. The humans tortured in Hell are there because deep down they actually believe they have sinned and this is what they deserve. Look into Sandman #21-28 - Season of Mists. It's canon in this story, Zatanna mentioned the Plague of Ghosts earlier.

See here:

Sure. There's also a ton of DC canon about demons buying and stealing souls. See Hellblazer.

NemiTheNen · Apr 17, 2018

Jack Stargazer said:
The humans tortured in Hell are there because deep down they actually believe they have sinned and this is what they deserve.

Well, except for Morpheus's old lover.

The only problem with what Lucifer is saying is that most people don't think they are bad people. In my head I reason it away as they show up in heaven because they think they should go there and are turned away at the gate, alas for them the only other option is Hell and then the guilt kicks in, and well, the Demons and Devils make snuff from their suffering.

Monshroud · Apr 17, 2018

Jack Stargazer said:
If you read Sandman, that is actually how it works. The humans tortured in Hell are there because deep down they actually believe they have sinned and this is what they deserve.

Unless we count the hopefully small minority of souls that are still in denial and thus unrepentant for the most part, or wrongfully condemned and sent there by sacrifice or sorcery, then yes you're quite right!

Speaking of wrongfully condemning souls, I do hope that as mainstream awareness of the supernatural continues to grow, NASTY individuals like the shamanistic hitman, "Psychopomp", will find it MUCH harder to peddle their trade in the future.

Murder might get someone 25 to life, but killing someone AND sentencing them to perdition at the same time?

Lord knows what punishment the Justice system will come up with to address that particular act of evil...

Maybe take a page out of the Atlantean handbook, if they've had to deal with something like it before?

TheLastOne · Apr 17, 2018

NemiTheNen said:
Well, except for Morpheus's old lover.

The only problem with what Lucifer is saying is that most people don't think they are bad people. In my head I reason it away as they show up in heaven because they think they should go there and are turned away at the gate, alas for them the only other option is Hell and then the guilt kicks in, and well, the Demons and Devils make snuff from their suffering.

Again, it isn't really compatible with a ton of events everywhere else in the comics. While you can have broad arcs of continuity, don't mistake that for the setting staying the same or constant. The above is true of the Sandman comic, but it isn't true elsewhere in D.C. because other writers want to use The Devil and demons in a more conventional way.

RichardWhereat said:
No, it was Lucifer who turned it into the pit of horror. Hell shaped itself around him, and by his will. He just wasn't aware of the fact.

No that was The First of the Fallen, who isn't Lucifer because how he's used in stories and where he fits is... pretty much everything Lucifer isn't. Sandman and Lucifer were basically written without caring how hell and The Devil had been used in earlier comics, and that left the writers of Hellblazer with a dilemma, which they solved by officially making The First of the Fallen and Lucifer different beings.

NemiTheNen · Apr 17, 2018

TheLastOne said:
Again, it isn't really compatible with a ton of events everywhere else in the comics. While you can have broad arcs of continuity, don't mistake that for the setting staying the same or constant. The above is true of the Sandman comic, but it isn't true elsewhere in D.C. because other writers want to use The Devil and demons in a more conventional way.

But Zoat is mixing things so trying to figure out how it happens or what is going on is interesting.

Saying you can't own a soul is like saying you can't own a man. True--you can control neither the soul nor the man's thoughts and desires and will. But that doesn't make slavery not a thing.

Lucifer himself has no value for souls, he has no need of them. But the other demons and devils and whatnot? There is an industry in hell, there are wants and hungers and addictions, and the damned can be used to make them. Thus, souls have value to those who have less power. Which neatly explains why other infernal beings do do the the whole bargaining for souls and stuff that Lucifer does not.

Mr Zoat · Apr 17, 2018

ThrawnCA said:
Hey, completely unrelated to the current chapter: @Mr Zoat I don't know whether you had any further plans for Felicity the Karnan, but I was thinking about where she might be able to go that would have the right mix of opportunities for growth and protection from exploitation...would it make sense for her to live at Shadowcrest and keep Zatanna company?

Given that she doesn't speak any Earth languages, has never been to Earth and knows nothing about magic? Not really.

ThrawnCA · Apr 17, 2018

Mr Zoat said:
Given that she doesn't speak any Earth languages, has never been to Earth and knows nothing about magic? Not really.

The first two points didn't bother her a bit when going to Tamaran...even leaving aside the G-Gnomes. Which Zatanna wouldn't leave aside, since she herself has recently used them. For language learning.

"Master." She turns her head, starting very slightly as her whole body turns in place. "I speak eight languages fluently. I am certain that I would pick up theirs soon enough."

As for not knowing magic, that's one of the opportunities it would give her. Sure, she may not have the speaking-backwards bloodline, but the secret about magic is that anyone can learn it, right?

Plus, if it worked out, having a sister would make Zatanna stronger...

Pinklestia · Apr 17, 2018

TheInnerHollow said:
Orange Lantern displays blasphemy to an angel!
Sports at 11.

I would have totally gone to demon hunting instead.

Mad Science Paul: So you had an Angel as not a bodyguard and you didn't try to force him to fight Satanus somehow?

Oh El: I have been told I can get a bit sturborn about my objectives...

Mad Science Paul: I need my lovely gynoid assistant to keep track of my objectives. Sure I get... wait not important, we are being attacked right now.

Black Lantern Paul: RISE!

Lone Courier 6 · Apr 17, 2018

Pinklestia said:
Black Lantern Paul: RISE!

... Oh El is fucked in this Scenario, Grayven not so much.

Buggy · Apr 17, 2018

This isn't directly related to the current discussion, but I had a thought: What are the functional limitations on how many/how large of a construct OL can make? Do proportionally more/larger construct(s) simply require a greater immediate desire to create?

I was thinking that, in your typical Heros Vs. Giant Mook Army scenario, OL could theoretically just create hundreds of self-targetting railguns and take down far, far, far more than a flying brick could. Ammo'd be a issue but if he prepared for the situation in advance he could just carry a lot more ammo.

Firlz · Apr 17, 2018

Only really hitting me now. What's the dealio with the numbers before Zauriel's statements?

Is that something from the comics that got moved here, or is there some WTR explanation I missed?

Hestia&theCourt · Apr 17, 2018

Firlz said:
Only really hitting me now. What's the dealio with the numbers before Zauriel's statements?

Is that something from the comics that got moved here, or is there some WTR explanation I missed?

For some reason, Angels in WTR talk like Bible verses.

Nic611 · Apr 17, 2018

Firlz said:
Only really hitting me now. What's the dealio with the numbers before Zauriel's statements?

Is that something from the comics that got moved here, or is there some WTR explanation I missed?

Crimson Doom said:
For some reason, Angels in WTR talk like Bible verses.

As said earlier its a reference to Terry Pratchett's works where gods and other similar beings had their dialogue formatted like that whenever they made announcements.

Edit: Relevant quote.

Mr Zoat said:
The verse bit I copied from Small Gods by Terry Pratchett.

ADeshantis · Apr 17, 2018

Pratchett homages are as good a reason to give someone a unique speech pattern as any.

I wonder if there's a Death god out there that TALKS LIKE THIS.

bigking321 · Apr 17, 2018

z3r0gamer said:
I wonder if there's a Death god out there that TALKS LIKE THIS.

Lol. All that makes me think of is the villain from who framed rodger rabbit.

"Remember me Eddie? When I killed your brother I sounded just... like... THISSSS!!!".

Firehawk242 · Apr 17, 2018

z3r0gamer said:
Pratchett homages are as good a reason to give someone a unique speech pattern as any.

I wonder if there's a Death god out there that TALKS LIKE THIS.

Probably not in DC. Death of the Endless is way too laid back to speak in unnecessary caps.

Zap Rowsdower · Apr 17, 2018

Firehawk242 said:
Probably not in DC. Death of the Endless is way too laid back to speak in unnecessary caps.

She might have back in her not-perky goth days before Krypton had life and before the Zamaron/Guardian species-wide divorce, however many billions of years ago that was.

random_npc · Apr 17, 2018

my two cents on hell, I suspect the intention was for it to work like it does in sandman, and then things went badly off the rails. We've seen evidence that demons are using inbound souls as a resource, that means they want more souls down there. What ever hell was supposed to work like it probably isn't working like its supposed to. Given the whole thing about hell is that God/the source has little sway their it's entirely possible the reason it's remained such a festering pit is that God can't fix it.

Da Boyz · Apr 17, 2018

Jack Stargazer said:
If you read Sandman, that is actually how it works. The humans tortured in Hell are there because deep down they actually believe they have sinned and this is what they deserve. Look into Sandman #21-28 - Season of Mists. It's canon in this story, Zatanna mentioned the Plague of Ghosts earlier.

See here:

This does fairly inconsistent with other bits of DC lore like some of Gaiman's other works. Hellblazer has John rescuing the souls of all the children who were sacrificed and sent to hell for example, and based off the human sacrifices which were seen right before the hell incursion Zoat might be using that as canon. Also its literally the Prince of Lies saying that.

TheLastOne · Apr 17, 2018

Da Boyz said:
This does fairly inconsistent with other bits of DC lore like some of Gaiman's other works. Hellblazer has John rescuing the souls of all the children who were sacrificed and sent to hell for example, and based off the human sacrifices which were seen right before the hell incursion Zoat might be using that as canon. Also its literally the Prince of Lies saying that.

Nah, he isn't lying, his behavior is consistent across Sandman and Lucifer. Lord of Lies is very much a title OTHER people gave him. His vice is pride.

Though it's notable that in Lucifer while he doesn't care about souls, other demons do in the Lucifer comic line, and the souls of the damned WERE sentenced to hell by God. It's an explicit plot point that actually shows up in a rather awesome manner.

As I said before, you can have consistency within a given writers works, and you can have continuity inside a given work, but you're not going to have constancy or continuity once you start switching lines and authors.

Zap Rowsdower · Apr 17, 2018

Da Boyz said:
the souls of all the children who were sacrificed and sent to hell for example, and based off the human sacrifices which were seen right before the hell incursion Zoat might be using that as canon

Not incompatible with "you go to hell if you expect it". If you're told by an evil cult you're being killed to send your soul to their dark god and they clearly have said dark god's blessing, you expect to be sent to hell, yes?

Da Boyz · Apr 17, 2018

Zap Rowsdower said:
Not incompatible with "you go to hell if you expect it". If you're told by an evil cult you're being killed to send your soul to their dark god and they clearly have said dark god's blessing, you expect to be sent to hell, yes?

IIRC its implied its directly "You get sacrificed by evil cultists then spend eternity being tortured" rather than "The evil cultists tell you you're going to hell and you believe them" in Hellblazer. Getting an express ticket to the abyss rather than menacing indications you're going there, certainly Astra got literally dragged to hell.

ThrawnCA · Apr 17, 2018

I'm definitely seeing a drop-off in typo numbers

Mr Zoat said:
lighting-shining-through

lightning-shining-through

Mr Zoat said:
: even if you're only

; even if you're only

the rings around of the
the rings around the

Mr Zoat said:
I've spoke to

I've spoken to

Mr Zoat said:
descend down through

descend through

Mr Zoat said:
Raise to the

Raised to the

But you're right:
But you're right;

Mr Zoat said:
; the one were they were

, the one where they were

the current wave of hostilities are over
the current wave of hostilities is over

Mr Zoat said:
isn't doing that your job.

isn't doing that your job?

Mr Zoat said:
Okay, but don't think

Okay, but I don't think

Mr Zoat said:
in the real world

Heh

With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Twelve)

Carbon-based biped

(Verified Entity)

Person of impeccable tastes (for destruction)

Perpetual Phone Poster

Person of impeccable tastes (for destruction)

Perpetual Phone Poster

Dedicated ragequitter

Carbon-based biped

Devilish Fool

Turns out we're plural too.

King on the Chromium Throne

Ex-cultist vagrant

The Cutest Apocalypse.

Person of impeccable tastes (for destruction)

Ex-cultist vagrant

The Cutest Apocalypse.

Carbon-based biped