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You know what occurred to me? Joker's origins outside the Golden Age was that he fell in a vat of toxic waste and emerged as The Joker. Considering that Gotham is a natural conflux of Eldritch Chaos, and how Lazarus Pits are, you know, part herbal solution and part caustic acid (excluding the geomantic energies), what are the odds that he ended up falling into a variant of a Lazarus Pit by chance?

In this continuity? Pretty low. The Joker is a minor figure in Young Justice, though he does have insanity superpowers. Zoat has ignored them though, and generally treated him as a normal disturbed human.
 
So Paul, Orange Lantern, buddy... you could have just stopped here. Having had your question answered that there's no sin in living a long time, you could have ended conversation at this point. But you didn't.



He means he read an article somewhere that said that. Probably in the real world, not the DC universe.



And then he pushes ahead with the argument he picked, trying to disprove an aspect of this woman's religion and how wrong she is because... why? I don't know, because he's an asshole I guess. Beulah didn't start this. She wasn't arguing with him about religion. Instead he picked this fight for absolutely no reason.



And then having done whatever damage he was looking to do, ends with an acknowledgement that whatever we may think in the real world, a bunch of long-longed patriarchs (Adam and Mahalalelis are not prophets, so he fucked that up too) aren't particularly implausible in the DC universe wrapped in a petty "mine is better than yours" jab. Against a woman who is doing him a favor.

Christ, what an asshole.

Ultimately, most "standard" humans have the following desires to some degree or another:

- The desire to be correct, in beliefs, knowledge, and so on.
- The desire for others to agree with them.
- The desire to be around others who think like them.

From these, it follows naturally that if you find someone who disagrees with you, you want them to not disagree with you, and in many cases this means that you want to personally change their mind. The greater the dissonance between whatever they think and whatever you think, the greater the desire. If the dissonance is large enough, eventually you'll weigh it against things like "desire to conform to social standards by respecting someone's beliefs" and decide to argue.

As per him being a asshole? Well, as I see it, the greatest lesson you can learn in life is this:

Everyone is a asshole. Everyone is a liar. Everyone is a hypocrite, and a thousand other things. No saint is exempt, no sinner is exemplary, and you, yourself, are one of "everyone".
 
it at least makes sense in this incarnation >.<

Well, if you assume heavy amounts of government corruption, anyway. The more I look at the UN in Civil War, it becomes less and less effective at doing what they said they were trying to do, so I can only assume that it was a power trip and not actually meant to be holding them accountable for... what, stopping a terrorist from getting a biological weapon? If anyone could accomplish that without civilian casualties under those specific circumstances, I'd be outright astonished; as it is, the fact that the death toll is only in the double digits made that a net win. But I suppose having the Avengers hold a press conference where they call out the frightened public and the conniving governments for not thinking anything bloody through would end the movie right there.
 
Well, if you assume heavy amounts of government corruption, anyway. The more I look at the UN in Civil War, it becomes less and less effective at doing what they said they were trying to do, so I can only assume that it was a power trip and not actually meant to be holding them accountable for... what, stopping a terrorist from getting a biological weapon? If anyone could accomplish that without civilian casualties under those specific circumstances, I'd be outright astonished; as it is, the fact that the death toll is only in the double digits made that a net win. But I suppose having the Avengers hold a press conference where they call out the frightened public and the conniving governments for not thinking anything bloody through would end the movie right there.

Eh, that ignoring the very basic problem that the Avengers were an increasingly powerful important organization answering to no one but themselves, and people were dying. Even if they weren't at fault (something I agree with), it's not great when an organizational makes that judgement for themselves. Like, Tony was right, they needed some kind of mandate that justified their increasing power and influence.

The fact that the movie needed to undermine that was why they gave General Ross that mandate, because they needed someone that problematic to justify siding with Captain America. Like, it was a good movie with frankly one of the best villains we've seen in a Marvel Movie (Loki is better, but he's had several movies to grow in, Killmonger was better, but Killmonger was just wonderfully done), but it's message is weird. It's a rejection of the rule of law.
 
The fact that the movie needed to undermine that was why they gave General Ross that mandate, because they needed someone that problematic to justify siding with Captain America.

You know, after the events of The Incredible Hulk, I bet Brasilia is still pissed that Washington was perfectly willing to confront an indestructible rage monster in the middle of Rio. That's got to have damaged Amero-Brazilian relations.

(AND HE BECAME SECRETARY OF STATE, HOW DID ELLIS GET REELECTED!)
 
Eh, that ignoring the very basic problem that the Avengers were an increasingly powerful important organization answering to no one but themselves

I mean, and answering to the UN is supposed to be an improvement? It wasn't that long ago the UN were infested by HYDRA and/or obliviously forwarding HYDRA schemes. I'd have felt a lot better about the whole oversight thing if anyone could provide a concrete solution that didn't leave decisions about Avengers deployment in the hands of people less qualified and/or more outright malicious than the Avengers themselves.
 
I mean, and answering to the UN is supposed to be an improvement? It wasn't that long ago the UN were infested by HYDRA and/or obliviously forwarding HYDRA schemes. I'd have felt a lot better about the whole oversight thing if anyone could provide a concrete solution that didn't leave decisions about Avengers deployment in the hands of people less qualified and/or more outright malicious than the Avengers themselves.

Even disregarding HYDRA, in Iron Man 3, the Vice President was literally trying to murder the President and take his place. Wilson Fisk had a Senator and most of New York City under his grasp. If *anyone* has faith in the MCU system of government when it comes to anything. they're complete idiots.
 
Resurrectionists (part 19)
21st September
19:27 GMT -5


I smile through the rain at Jade as she spots me in my car parked outside Miss Inzerillo's home. She hesitates for a moment, then heads towards me. The door oozes open as she reaches the passenger side door and she slides herself in.

"Going my way?"

She glances at me briefly, then turns her head away so that she's staring out of the windscreen. "Is it working?"

"Somewhat. Initial indications are that you can't resurrect people who've reincarnated, which… Makes sense, if you think about it."

Mr Bantowa and Mr Megat turned to dust just as their employer did. Mr Ganguly still hadn't calmed down when I dropped him off with Ambrose, but he was physically fine. Mr Karokaro and Mr Gohain came out of it pretty much as Captain Gwak did: fine in mind and body but something they experienced after their deaths horrified them. Hopefully, horrified them into becoming decent people but… Eh. As long as Jade isn't the one who sends them back it isn't my problem.

"So… How many people I killed are walking around again?"

"Four out of the seven we've attempted so far."

She wiggles back in her seat a little, still not meeting my eyes. "What have you been telling people?"

"As little as possible. I told the North Rhelasians that it was an experimental medical procedure. The bodies of the other six I took covertly."

"If people who used to be dead turn up in their old hometowns, someone's going to notice."

"Captain Gwak is in the custody of the North Rhelasian military, but he was clearly distraught with guilt about his prior behaviour and they.. had already.. basically executed him."

"I don't think Double Jeopardy works like that. With the League of Shadows gone they might decide to execute him properly."

"He was a traitor."

She wiggles her head a little, presumably not sure what to think about it. "What about the rest?"

"Ambrose is keeping hold of one who came back a bit incoherent. The other two, I dropped off in their home towns with a thousand dollars in cash. Neither of them knew who any of us were."

"I'm fairly sure they can do an internet search."

"If anyone asks, it's an experimental medical procedure. Medium to long term, I wouldn't mind incorporating Lazarus Pit alchemy into something that could be used en masse."

"How many times can you do this?"

"Don't know. Ambrose estimates there are probably about fifty sites worldwide, minus any that have been used for what we're using it for. Enough to resurrect the people you killed and still have a few left over to emergencies."

She gives a small nod. "What happens to the ones who don't come back?"

"They're stuck in whatever body they reincarnated in. It… Might be possible to find their new bodies, but they might well not have their past life memories and I'm… If they're Human then they're only going to be a few months old."

"If they're Human?"

"Hinduism holds that a bad person gets reincarnated as something lesser. An animal.. or a plant. And given the people involved, we could be looking for a seedling or something." I make an amused snorting noise. "That's what I love about this world: death just isn't that big a deal."

"Not everyone gets Lazarus Pits."

"No, but you get souls. Gods build afterlives specifically to house you after you die. And if you don't want to do that, just pick the right religion and read the right spiritual literature and you can come back with a lot of your memories intact. Death isn't so much 'death' as it is a temporary physical disadvantage. It's a much better deal than what we Earth Primians usually get. Where I'm from, people die if they're killed."

"Mm."

Jade's.. actually looking away from me.

"What?"

"Killing these people was a big deal for me. I wasn't.. as involved in the sort of magic that you know about. I thought we were like Earth.. Primians."

"Do you.. feel differently about it now?"

"I feel worse. It might just be my brain thing going back over my memories. I remember.. stabbing them, shooting them… I remember the feel of the blade going in, their faces, then… The smell… I'm not a.. total psycho. I didn't keep playing it through my head for fun, but it never… Bothered me."

"The fact that you feel bad about it now is.. is a good sign."

"Because it means I'm not evil?"

"Because if you're genuinely repentant that means that I probably won't have to invade Hell."

She makes a quiet amused snort, and glances at me for a moment before looking back at the street again. "I thought I had to ask God to forgive me?"

"It's not my religion. If you want to ask Father Mattias about it-?"

"No, I-." She shakes her head. "I don't even know if bringing them back really.. matters."

"I think that the ones we've brought back so far will appreciate the opportunity to straighten their lives out."

"And their families?"

"Captain Gwak was being spat on by a thousand generations of his ancestors, so…"

"Hah! Guess I probably shouldn't convert to Dao Mau then."

"There's no real advantage unless you have your own children, so I'd say 'no'."

"Why's that?"

"Oriental shamanistic religions usually involve dead ancestors playing an ongoing role in the lives of their descendants. So if you wanted to do that, it's not a bad religion to pick. In Hellenism, they'd consider the idea quite.. creepy. Despite there being a literal physical pathway down to Erebos on Themyscira, hardly any of the Amazons have ever used it."

"Even if I did have children, I'm not sure that I'd want to put up with being constantly spat on for a chance to speak to them once a week."

"Is this a serious thing? Do you.. want to know what your ancestors think of you? Because loyally serving a master and killing in his service probably wouldn't have been regarded as negatively during their lives as it is now. You haven't broken an oath or committed a great act of betrayal, so the situation isn't the same as Captain Gwak's at all."

"Let's put a pin in it."

"Okay. Um, I.. thought about it? And I think that Hades would probably be okay with having an assassin as a worshipper?"

"No, I mean… The whole 'religion' thing. I…" She finally turns to face me. "I killed a lot of people, and now I feel bad about it. I.. should feel bad about it, and… I don't think dealing with it practically is really going to fix things."

"Do you want me to.. stop resurrecting people? Because we haven't got to the innocent people yet and I'd-."

"No. No, worth doing, but… It isn't going to fix things for me."

"Okay. Well." I reach over and place my right hand on hers. "If there's anything I can do to help, tell me, alright?"
 
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In this continuity? Pretty low. The Joker is a minor figure in Young Justice, though he does have insanity superpowers. Zoat has ignored them though, and generally treated him as a normal disturbed human.
What's the continuity where the Joker is the spirit of Gotham or whatever it was, and a lot of his "near-deaths that looked like real deaths" were him actually dying and then Gotham turned someone else into the Joker?

Because that is a thing, right?

Edit: The new update was posted while I was typing this.

It kinda feels like OL is somehow going to ruin his relationship with Jade like Grayven did.
 
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I gotta say I love and totally agree with Paul's views on religion since he is very right when it regards this setting.
 
Killmonger was better, but Killmonger was just wonderfully done)

Really? I felt he was under-characterized.

As an example: I was thoroughly confused when he said "like my ancestors who jumped off the boat" because it's difficult to believe that Wakandans were ever enslaved - especially not his royal lineage. The only conclusion you can draw from this is that his mother was african-american, but the fact is that I had to come to that conclusion so very late in the movie. If there was even a snippet of how hard his mother had it to support him, or anything, really, this single quote wouldn't have thrown me off.
 
The Joker theory mentioned above isn't from any actual legitimate mainstream canon, largely because it's too unrelentingly bleak. I think it's from a Fanfic or at best an Elseworld. I think that's a common fan theory though?

Joker isn't Gotham though, in anything resembling any mainstream canon timeline. Beyond all the other problems, he doesn't have the hots for Tim Drake!
 
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What's the continuity where the Joker is the spirit of Gotham or whatever it was, and a lot of his "near-deaths that looked like real deaths" were him actually dying and then Gotham turned someone else into the Joker?

Because that is a thing, right?

Edit: The new update was posted while I was typing this.

It kinda feels like OL is somehow going to ruin his relationship with Jade like Grayven did.

The Joker is actually Lucius the Eternal, huh. Makes sense, in an existentially horrifying, terrible way.
 
Does anyone else feel real unnerved by paragon Paul or is that just me?

Like idk, he just feels so..off. at least to me.

Also you can kind of tell he's never been in a relationship before. They are barely into the relationship and he's already throwing grand jesters around and doing the most. Some people just need time to adjust and can be scared off by that type of commitment so fast
 
You know what? I think this relationship will do good things for both of them, but I'm concerned that it's not balanced/equal enough to last. Having a boyfriend both willing and able to raise the dead and frontally assault Hell is doubtless very romantic, but since she doesn't want a power ring herself, there will continue to be a huge disparity between them.

We'll see, I guess.

; fine in mind and body
: fine in mind and body

Ambrose estimates

She gives
 
Lmao fuck off, I see that stealth reference.
It was pretty good no? I scrolled back up to smile at it.

Does anyone else feel real unnerved by paragon Paul or is that just me?

Like idk, he just feels so..off. at least to me.

Also you can kind of tell he's never been in a relationship before. They are barely into the relationship and he's already throwing grand jesters around and doing the most. Some people just need time to adjust and can be scared off by that type of commitment so fast
gestures.

But I'm reasonably certain that she's cottoned on to the idea that he's like that. Long before they started dating. His first gift, when she left prison, was to give her the ability to remove Agent Orange from Vietnam, and heal all the people there.
 
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