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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Twelve)

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Segev said:
A sociopath may not be a HEALTHY human, but is not a replicant. The child who enjoys tearing wings off of flies may not need a rationalization; he acknowledges he would have turned over the tortoise because it's funny/interesting/enjoyable to watch it struggle.
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Which is explicitly why I tagged it "weakly". It's not a silver bullet outside of a specific science-fiction background, and even then they figured out how to defeat it.
 
Coda said:
Which is explicitly why I tagged it "weakly". It's not a silver bullet outside of a specific science-fiction background, and even then they figured out how to defeat it.
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True. I have...issues with the source movie. It was entertaining as long as I completely turned off my brain and just watched it for the sci-fi setting, but given that it was trying to be thought-provoking and had, in theory, some deep things to talk about (the nature of humanity, identity, etc.), I think that's a pretty big failing of it. It didn't do a very good job of exploring the themes it seemed to want to.
 
Avernus said:
Or not cute.

I can't help but think of the omnicidal lizard-man hatchlings in the Riftwar series. When they hatched and saw humans, they immediately become enraged and attacked even though all the newborn lizards could do was gnaw uselessly on the humans' boots.
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So have you just never owned a dog? Because what you just described is in no way not cute. Seriously do I need to post the tiny Smaug pictures?
 
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Segev said:
Quibble: In 3e, at least, you can detect any level of cleric's alignment, or at least that of his deity, because they have a level 1 class feature that gives them an alignment aura corresponding to their deity. But otherwise, you're right: unless somebody has an alignment subtype, they have to be really, really steeped in their alignment, or be reasonably so and fairly powerful.

A mass murdering meat pie saleswoman who is a level 1 or 2 expert or commoner would show up, for the sheer amount of villainy she gets up to. A 7th level sorcerer who lives up to an alignment at all will show up, because he is just that powerful. As will a 7th level fighter, even. The more powerful you are, the less of a paragon of the alignment you need to be to show up. Though you still have to actually BE of that alignment; the occasional aligned act when you don't actually live it won't ping, no matter how high level you are.
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In Pathfinder, at least, alignment detection just doesn't work on anything under 6 HD unless they have alignment aura as a class or creature type feature.
 
Segev said:
My RL hypothesis is that emotions are not devoid of logic, but are actually closely related to intuitive leaps. They are responses to recognized patterns that take a great deal of processing power to logic one's way through, but which are a solved-well-enough problem that the internal modeling doesn't need the full logical analysis to come up with a mostly-optimal response to the stimuli. We say we don't understand or can't control our "illogical" emotions because we don't have the full time and processing power to pull together all the tiny details that go into forming it, and then working our way through the step-by-step proof. We're working from well-established and very powerful theorems, and thus we "source" the motivation for the decisions from "emotion" rather than "reason."

But "emotion" is actually more powerful than "reason" given the hardware available, because it is performing subconscious calculation and evaluation beyond what the hardware has time to work with in a reasoned way.

Which is why "logic, sans emotion" species never quite function as well as "emotional" humans. Okay, we write them that way, but we also see consistent patterns of what is "coldly logical" being the sub-optimal solution, and in believable ways; it feels more like there's a writer on board with forcing it when the coldly rational approach is the more-often-right one.

A sufficiently advanced AI to make adequate use of optimization of its hardware would have what we see as emotions as the same sort of fuzzy "I don't know why, but I know this is the correct response" behavior.

This is strongly related, I think, to why enlightened self-interest and "good aligned choices" wind up so closely resembling each other.
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Wow, that's pretty much exactly my viewpoint on the matter as well! I've never found anyone who agrees with me on this, although admittedly I haven't searched too hard either.

The way I see it, emotions are just one of many, many shortcuts the brain uses for, well, everything. Things such as sensory processing, which is usually pretty good but has a variety of flaws if you know where to look, as well as language processing, social interactions (defaulting to your country/family/race/football team in any conflict, even when it doesn't make sense), spatial/mathematical processing (see: anyone who can do all the subconscious trigonometry required to interact with the environment in any meaningful way but can't understand academic trigonometry), and more.

The brain is a organ of shortcuts because doing it the hard way really isn't practical. But once you start talking about super-human intelligences, I wouldn't expect emotions to stick around, unless it turns out that high-level decision making is still too hard without some analog of them. But I somewhat doubt that's that case, so it always annoys me when AIs are depicted as having emotions, since it essentially means that they're too stupid for decent introspection and self-improvement.

Now, one might think that even without emotions, a super-human intelligence with a similar utility function to normal humans would probably behave similarly, since they come to the same conclusion with different methods. However, I'd argue while the typical "cold, emotionless, logical" trope probably isn't right, this probably wouldn't be the case.

Consider a human walking through the supermarket, as seen by a bird nesting in the rafters. It sees the humans walking around, and for the life of it, it can't figure out why they're completely ignoring the food around them. They're absolutely surrounded by it! No other humans are guarding it, and there are so many around that this can't be any one human's territory, so why aren't they stuffing themselves for the winter? It makes no sense.

The bird isn't able to understand the concepts of law, money, etc which cause this wildly different behavior, it doesn't even realize that it doesn't understand them, or that those exist at all. On a similar note, I'd expect a superintelligence to simply be... alien. Not cold logical, not a really smart emotional human, it just does things we don't understand because we basically can't. Even if it has a perfectly comprehensible utility function, it's just put so much thought into it that it behaves in seemingly unrelated or even counter-intuitive ways, because that's actually a better path than what we'd come up with.

I haven't read too much AI-related fiction, but one of the better examples of this I know of it Orion's Arm. To quote:
To a sapient being - and here we are defining sapient as a ratiocinative sentient of less than first toposophic level - hyperturings can appear as enigmatic, mysterious, even a little frightening and uncanny. In this they are no different to any other transapient ascend.
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zhuull said:
Behold!




Though he be but little, he is fierce!
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Thanks! Those are adorable! :grin:

Buggy said:
Wow, that's pretty much exactly my viewpoint on the matter as well! I've never found anyone who agrees with me on this, although admittedly I haven't searched too hard either.

The way I see it, emotions are just one of many, many shortcuts the brain uses for, well, everything. Things such as sensory processing, which is usually pretty good but has a variety of flaws if you know where to look, as well as language processing, social interactions (defaulting to your country/family/race/football team in any conflict, even when it doesn't make sense), spatial/mathematical processing (see: anyone who can do all the subconscious trigonometry required to interact with the environment in any meaningful way but can't understand academic trigonometry), and more.

The brain is a organ of shortcuts because doing it the hard way really isn't practical. But once you start talking about super-human intelligences, I wouldn't expect emotions to stick around, unless it turns out that high-level decision making is still too hard without some analog of them. But I somewhat doubt that's that case, so it always annoys me when AIs are depicted as having emotions, since it essentially means that they're too stupid for decent introspection and self-improvement.

Now, one might think that even without emotions, a super-human intelligence with a similar utility function to normal humans would probably behave similarly, since they come to the same conclusion with different methods. However, I'd argue while the typical "cold, emotionless, logical" trope probably isn't right, this probably wouldn't be the case.

Consider a human walking through the supermarket, as seen by a bird nesting in the rafters. It sees the humans walking around, and for the life of it, it can't figure out why they're completely ignoring the food around them. They're absolutely surrounded by it! No other humans are guarding it, and there are so many around that this can't be any one human's territory, so why aren't they stuffing themselves for the winter? It makes no sense.

The bird isn't able to understand the concepts of law, money, etc which cause this wildly different behavior, it doesn't even realize that it doesn't understand them, or that those exist at all. On a similar note, I'd expect a superintelligence to simply be... alien. Not cold logical, not a really smart emotional human, it just does things we don't understand because we basically can't. Even if it has a perfectly comprehensible utility function, it's just put so much thought into it that it behaves in seemingly unrelated or even counter-intuitive ways, because that's actually a better path than what we'd come up with.

I haven't read too much AI-related fiction, but one of the better examples of this I know of it Orion's Arm. To quote:
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Honestly, I think a hyperintelligence would have some odd behaviors, but would also have recognizable ones. It would have seemingly-emotional responses because in some cases, it really did calculate through "the hard way" and came up with the same reaction as the human emotive one. Including to some degree the expression of it, because we have reasons for how we EXPRESS emotion, as well. It is communication, amongst other things.
 
I think it should also be noted that vestigial things exist. Evolution doesn't remove things just because they don't currently serve a purpose. A hyperintelligence that evolved from a non-sophont ancestor would have pleasure and aversion wired into their nervous system. They might have a mental logic that allows them to compute utility at a glance, but unless there was some specific evolutionary pressure to select against it, they would still have things that they enjoy for their own sake because it makes them feel good.
 
Mr Zoat said:
She's still a supergolem. The SI is just a little more aware of what that means in context than most comic characters.
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Fair enough, but in Greek Myth and the DC franchise based on that, "supergolem" = human.

Wonder Woman is just Pandora 2.0, without the box.

Literally, they once established that Wonder Woman is the reincarnation of Pandora. They also established that Diana is the reincarnation of the child in Hippolyta's belly when her caveman mate murdered her. Suberboy punches or Pandora gets around. ☺

Making people out of earth is the go to for Greek gods, unless they decide to mix it up by using air or ants or something to break up the monotony.

Which is why the DC writers had the gods make the Amazons out of clay in NE.

And thanks to the titanomachy, humanity is descended from Pandora's daughter and Prometheus' son in NE rather than her being the actual first woman.

So Wonder Woman is the grandmother of the human race in some continuities, which I find funny.

In fact, Wonder Woman seems to have the metagene- In at least two stories her child with Superman has powers different from either of them. It's not like Supes ought to be packing a metagene.

Which of course you're free to ignore, writer's prerogative, as always, but by Greek myth whatever WW is every human on earth would be too.
 
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Do-Over (part 6)
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    • 13th August
    09:43 GMT -6

    "A few years ago now I read a book. I don't remember what it was called, something in the Dune series. Wasn't particularly good, wasn't particularly bad, but what struck me as odd was the author's choice of focus. Previous instalments in the series had been focused on intrigues and battles for control of the planet Arrakis. In the novel I read, the planet was destroyed in a single line as part of an empire wide attack. How? Why? There were any number of possible methods and reasons which.. I would have assumed warranted a paragraph at least, something about how the forces stationed there to defend it were… Betrayed? Outnumbered? Overwhelmed by technological superiority? If the story is about a war, the reader needs enough of a description to get a sense of the war, surely?"

    Neither the facility's chief educator nor the three subordinate educators appear to have any comment to make.

    "So that you're aware-" A construct image appears in front of me. "-Brimstone is currently in the outskirts of the city he attacked, having bypassed the external shields-" By shoulder charging them. "-fried all of the local combat drones and incinerated the first relief force. Since there hasn't been a second relief force yet, I'm assuming that your top physicists and technologists are examining the telemetry from the previous attempts in order to try and come up with something clever."

    "Which means that they're not paying attention to what I'm doing."

    I fold my arms behind my back, Darkseid style, and walk over to a nearby observation window. Below, young Psions are lying in baby loungers while educational programs play on the interior of masks covering their eyes and ears. The Citadel goes in for cybernetic data uploads but it seems that Psions eschew that for something a little more low tech. Curious.

    "I couldn't help but notice that you appear to have expanded your facility lately. Quite aside from the building work, your records indicate that the most recent batches are considerably larger than past batches." I half turn to face them. "Why is that?"

    The senior educator glowers at me. "You're going to die, alien."

    "Almost certainly." I nod. "But not today, and not by your hand. Why are you expanding?"

    "I will not betray my people by giving an alien invader information."

    "Why ever not? Either, I believe myself to be a moral and heroic individual and hence will not attack a non-military target, or I'm a monster and will slaughter your next generation in order to undermine your civilisation regardless of what you tell me. As such, your answer will make no difference to my actions and the most loyal thing you can do is keep me talking. Give people a chance to work out that something is off."

    "I'll tell you."

    I raise my eyebrows as one of the subordinate educators pipes up. Wasn't expecting that, though I suppose it's true that Psions don't have the same rigid hierarchy that some mad science species have. His superior turns his glower on him.

    "You will not."

    "Or what? The chance of us surviving is minimal anyway, and he's right about there not being much chance of what we say making any difference to the thing we're actually responsible for. We're resources too. Our creation, education and experience has a value and shouldn't just be discarded."

    I nod. "Rational self-interest. Well done that man. So?"

    "We're increasing production. Most of the children here will be sent out to create pioneer colonies in order to reduce our dependence on-"

    Ping.

    "-alien traders for information and test subje-."

    "Lying."

    "What do you mean, lying? How do you know?"

    "I don't, but Mother Box is pretty good at picking up lies." I turn fully back to face them, walk a few steps towards them and crouch down. "Tell me the truth, or my telepathic little friend gets to shred your mind for the information."

    He matches my stare for several moments before looking away with a snort. "Everyone will find out in a few days anyway. We finally cracked the technique our ancestors used for making X'Hal and her children. The Citadel has an army of intelligent Citadelians and a fleet prepared for a war outside of the Vega Systems. We're upping our own growth so that we can continue to serve as the technological arm of the Citadel Empire as they expand."

    "I had assumed that tales of the Citadelians' simple mindedness were exaggerated."

    The senior educator shakes his head. "Trust me, they're not. We were assigned to do feasibility studies on improving their indoctrination uploads. It was painful, trying to get them to learn anything. If a batch of Psions ended up like that we'd euthanize them and execute everyone else involved."

    "So, the Citadel Empire expands." I create a construct image of the local stellar region. "Taking the territory of mostly single-world civilisations already in hock to one pirate group or another, then eventually running into the Crown Imperium. I thought that the pirate groups were semi-unified."

    "They were." Apparently the chief educator doesn't consider it treacherous to give me information on other people. "Then the Spider Guild tried to muscle in. The Guild lost, but the weak-willed freebooters didn't want to try and take their Nest World by storm."

    "No, that could be quite costly for people only interested in fighting for money."

    "So they told the Queen that they'd negotiate a settlement, lured her to Rashashoon and shot her dead. The Spiders retaliated and killed the pirate leaders and now the whole area's descended into anarchy. Most of those mongrels will probably jump at the chance to work for the Citadel Empire."

    The junior educator snorts. "Which is why any of that is our problem."

    One of the other juniors shrugs. "Not that the Citadel needs other people for raw muscle any more."

    I smile. "Or other people to do their research and development any more. Not if they're intelligent."

    The senior educator rolls his eyes. "They may not be stupid but they're still Citadelians. They don't have the attitude for proper science, or even precision engineering. They'll-"

    I raise my right hand and generate a construct shield.

    "-need us-"

    The particle beam hits my shield, flares of white, blue and pink burning and biting at the construct barrier as the drone projecting it drops stealth in order to redirect power to its weapon. I reinforce the shield and nod to the Sphere. She aims and fires repeatedly until the offending drone ceases fire and falls smouldering to the floor.

    "-for…"

    I dismiss the shield construct. "Reasonable effort with the weapon but I'm marking you down for the stealth." The one junior who hasn't spoken yet mutters something that might be an obscenity. "Did you think I was wearing these goggles to shade my eyes from the sun? Did you think these power rings were fakes?" They nervously watch my face. "No more talking around the subject. The indoctrination techniques you use on your young; how much direct uploads do you use?"

    The lead educator makes an expression of distaste. "None. There's no way to do that sort of thing without compelling their mind states to adopt rigid structures which are completely unsuitable for our purposes. Psions need to be able to reflect on the information they're given in order to integrate it properly."

    "And your cultural indoctrination?"

    "It happens gradually and rationally. We teach them to value things that Psions have and other species don't. We're better than almost everyone, and we'll eventually overhaul everyone else as well."

    That's… Curious.

    "Who would you say is… Better?"

    All four of them take on an expression of profound distaste. After a few moments pass, the senior educator raises his head slightly. "Your people clearly have advanced technology, and your physical abilities are quite remarkable. But there's only one of you, so either you're few in number or you're enhanced much further than the rest. You may be strong but your civilisation is probably weaker than ours."

    Yah-huh.

    "Then there are the Dominators, but their social structures are too rigid. We'll surpass them eventually."

    "How about… The Guardians of the Universe?"

    He shakes his head. "We have nothing but admiration for their science and technology. But they waste their time trying to nursemaid weak civilisations, and that means that their armsmen are too spread out to enforce their will properly."

    Hm.

    Ping.

    No, but it is an opening.

    "Thank you, gentlemen. You've given me a lot to think about. I'm going to leave you alive. Continue your work with my blessing." I turn away, a hush tube opening in front of me. "And do try not to get incinerated while I'm gone. I may still have a use for you."
     
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    • In the Renegade timeline, the Spider Queen was shot and killed at the negotiations, while in the Paragon timeline OL accidentally fingered her and she apparently developed some sort of feelings for him, kind of.

    Add that to the list of interesting conversations they're gonna have when they finally meet up, or trade places, or whatever. I still don't believe you when you say there's never going to be a crossover Mr. Zoat.
     
    Aww, the Spider Queen was backstabbed :(

    Pretty much to be expected given the situation Paul walked into, but still a bit sad.
     
    So, my first guess as to whats going to happen - maybe Grayven will leverage the superiority of the New Gods/Apokolips and convince the Psions to submit to him as Suzerain and/or change their ways? Not sure - at this point I'm expecting the "kill em' all" plan to be subverted significantly, but I'm not sure how.
     
    Do the Guardians know about Grayven's suzerainty? Would they officialy recognize it if they did?
    IIRC Grayven never made a point of mentioning it to Earth's Green Lanterns; how would it affect them to overhear something about it while they're out and about? Or from the Corps itself if it affects their duties to their Sector?
    Imagine Guy's spit-take when he realizes he personally helped the man who owns his planet become less of a dick, or Hal's when he remembers the Zamaron sidequest he did in part to repair the soul of a man he already didn't like but also who turns out to literally own his planet.
     
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    Mr Zoat said:
    13th August
    09:43 GMT -6
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    So are we counting the people killed in the spider – pirate war as part of Greyven's kill count or as negatives in Paul's kill count?

    Interesting outlook: 'We revere them for being more intelligent than us, but think they are foolish.'
    Would have thought a species of scientists would investigate why the most advanced civilisation in the known universe is spending its time on police actions.
     
    You know normally I really don't like Renegade updates but these last few have been really interesting, it's taking a look at a truly in-human species and seeing if there is anything that could be redeeming about them from a human/new god perspective. It's a nice contrast to Paul's unmittigated slaughter of nearly every Citadelian because he believed them irredeemable, Grayven on the flip-side is being forced to confront a race he believes to be just as bad but rather than Paul's shoot first, ask question later approach he's got to ask whenever he gets the chance just to keep Mother Box on his side. If Grayven somehow does manage to salvage the Psions into something less morally-repugnant then that kind of sends a message about Paul's actions in the main timeline, he could have saved the Citadelians, he even said it, but he didn't want to because it would have taken up too much of his time whereas Grayven may do just that with the Psions if given the chance. Paul might be Paragon but he isn't perfect just as Grayven might be Renegade but he quite frequently does great acts of good. Keep at it Mr Zoat, can't wait until tonight ^.^
     
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