Remove ads

With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Twelve)

Status
Not open for further replies.
Reader mode
Mr Zoat said:
What's wrong with it?

It's an original take on 'realistic superpeople', it's reasonably logical, the characterisation was pretty good...
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
It has all the realism of a high school jock's lurid revenge fantasies about how the guy who beat him for the role of quarterback is totally gay and has a small dick and should be beaten to death with hammers. Also, it pretty much only brings in the idea of superheroes in order to take an angry, smug shit on the very idea of superheroes, and its protagonists are Hard Men Makin' Hard Decisions worthy of 24. The plot is a series of gory shock porn scenes strung together with string and cemented together with a raw, cancerous hate for the genre it purports to be a part of.

The Boys is basically a modern descendant of Mr. A, the comic where a demented Objectivist's infallible self-insert stomped all over straw effigies of his perceived opposition. Except somehow a bit more disgusting.
 
Datcord said:
Garth Ennis' works
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Yeah...glad you reminded me. I tend to avoid anything Ennis touches like the plague. Especially since the wank-fest that was "Punisher kills the Marvel Universe." Why that was in a hospital waiting room I'll never know, but what I thought was good fortune (I mean, comics?! In a hospital?!) to something that annoyed me so much that by the end, I actively wished Ennis ill. Like a really bad, recurring flu every year on its published date.

ThrawnCA said:
It's from Alexander Wales: "The year is 1934, and Superman has arrived in Metropolis. Features Lex Luthor as the villain protagonist as he comes to grips with the arrival of an alien god."
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Mmm...I'll save it. Little leary due to my dislike of Lex as a character. But hey, maybe I'll get some free time, so thanks.
 
The Boys reminds me a lot of Wanted (the comic), in that I feel they come from a sorta mean-spirited place, rather than an artistic one, when it comes to superheroes.

I don't think less of Zoat for liking it. If I judged everyone by their taste as compared to mine, I'd get nothing done but seething, but I definitely don't like that kind of story.
 
I'm surprised that Zoat liking the Boys is a surprise, since he placed the indigo tribesman alt.Paul there.

There's only about a gajillion settings he can place them in.

Heck DC once published a comic adaptation of 9 Princes of Amber, for example.
 
Mr Zoat said:
What's wrong with it?

It's an original take on 'realistic superpeople', it's reasonably logical, the characterisation was pretty good...
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
It's a vicious parody of 'realistic' superpeople, with less realism than Sin City and none of its dignity and respect for life. It's also a vicious parody of a wide range of fan-favorite characters, a viscious parody of corporations and governments, and even at least one fan favorite real person (Stan Lee) is parodied in a vicious manner. Mind you, if you've only read the issues published by DC, rather than the ones after they cancelled the series, probably for the aforementioned vicious parody of Stan Lee (which is in the first issue published by the new publisher after DC cancelled it), you could have missed that. It is completely terrible, and I cannot comprehend how you can possibly consider it realistic, or even good writing.

Sure, if you agree with the fanon/headcanon premise that the power-granting drug causes psychological problems, the behavior of the victims is plausible, but the rest of it? No. That garbage desperately needed an editor who could tell Ennis when to stop and change course, but Ennis could not accept that, which lead to his moving to a too-permissive publisher.

ThrawnCA said:
It's from Alexander Wales: "The year is 1934, and Superman has arrived in Metropolis. Features Lex Luthor as the villain protagonist as he comes to grips with the arrival of an alien god."

https://www.fanfiction.net/s/10360716/1/The-Metropolitan-Man
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Maxx Crowley said:
Mmm...I'll save it. Little leary due to my dislike of Lex as a character. But hey, maybe I'll get some free time, so thanks.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Just a warning: It starts out good, is still good in the middle, but gets less good and less plausible toward the end (said end involving stupidity and short-sightedness that's totally in-character, but seems to be presented by the author as a good decision). Also, if you like Superman, or respect him, you are likely to dislike the last few chapters, IMHO.

EDIT: This was a much angrier and more critical post than I usually post, but it is accurate as to my opinions.
 
Last edited:
Mr Zoat said:
What's wrong with it?

It's an original take on 'realistic superpeople', it's reasonably logical, the characterisation was pretty good...
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Oh, we're gonna do this, oh yes. But we're gonna hide my long-winded ranting behind a spoiler.
Okay. First thing you need to know is that Garth Ennis HATES super heroes. As a genre, as a concept, as people, etc. The SOLE exceptions to this are Superman (who he always somehow manages to write WELL), Captain America, and Daredevil in his run on Punisher. If you read him consistently, you start to see it really clear. Work your way through any title where he doesn't have an editor reining him in and you'll see plenty of examples.

If you pick up a "super hero" comic written by Garth Ennis without that editor, you will inevitably find the capes to be either venial shitbags, complete fucking idiots, or amoral monsters. (Nearly) EVERY. TIME. The Boys is a particularly nasty example of this. Every "hero" is terrible. Murders, rapists, completely amoral shitheels, all of them. Hell, even our "hero" main characters are murdering, blackmailing shitbags who joke about the horrible things they do to... pretty much everyone they meet or interact with. The very few exceptions are shit on. Endlessly. The token "good girl/real super hero"? Her boyfriend cheats on her. She gets promoted to the leading superhero team in the world... and is promptly sexually assaulted by said heroes in order to get/keep her place on the team. Her uniform is turned into the sluttiest possible version... in what is obviously just a mean-spirited laugh moment. THE LIST GOES ON. THIS IS THE FIRST ISSUE SHE'S IN.

Wee Hughie? He's a good guy... who starts out by having the woman he loves senselessly murdered by a hero. Okay, fine. I GET this. It's a character defining moment. It's what starts his Hero Journey... but every single step along the way is him compromising his morals or being made the butt of the joke or used as a gross out gag or....

I guess... what I'm trying to say is that The Boys is a lot like Ultimate Marvel: When it first came out, I was super excited at the idea of "serious" super hero comics. But... then I found out that "serious" just meant "joyless" and "bloody" and "edgy." It reminds me of the worst lows of the 90's and I do not want to go back to that. I lived through it once. I am FINE with comics that have a realistic edge. I am fine with comics that explore what it means to be a super hero in the "real" world. Look at Miracle Man or Morrison's run on Animal Man, for example. Look at a shocking amount of Hellblazer's run. Hell, look at the ur-example, Watchmen. (Before Alan Moore REALLY started cosplaying Rasputin immersively.)

I read all of The Boys, because I am a stubborn son of a bitch. There were moments that I liked. The Frenchmen's interactions with The Female, for example. Mother's Milk was consistently a solid dude. Wee Hughie came into his own. But... overall... it left me feeling dirty. The bad kind of dirty.

It's not a series I would recommend when I can suggest others that are better... by the same author, even.

Also, if you're not sick of hearing about this, you can read the Polokun Reads The Boys thread on SB, where it's covered issue by issue with some pretty good commentary.

Maxx Crowley said:
I tend to avoid anything Ennis touches like the plague.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Some of Ennis' stuff is flat out AMAZING. Even in the depths of his shittiest shit-slinging shitfests (AKA Crossed), he can write GOOD stuff. (Well, maybe not in Crossed.) Hell, even The Boys had some good bits here and there. Just... not many of them.

That said...
Preacher was amazing more or less start to finish. It was tight, it was moving, it was a damn good read. At points, it was a very, very unhappy read. But it was GOOD.
His run on Punisher was GREAT. He got into Frank's head. He showed that, instead of a teenage boy wank fantasy, Frank was a deeply disturbed and horribly BROKEN person. It was dark. It was gritty. It was anything but celebratory. It was a wonderful look at a man who knows there's something intrinsically wrong with him... and knows that he won't stop until he's forced to.
Hitman... oh, Hitman. Hitman was the kind of brilliant send up of mainstream comics that I wish Ennis would do more of. It was puerile and stupid and satirical funny and would reach into your chest and RIP OUT YOUR FUCKING HEART. It was gross and ridiculous and had zombie penguins and had the main character blow his chowder on Batman's boots. It has a character named Six Pack with the power of alcoholism and a dude named Dog Welder... who welds dogs. To faces. (He was created during a bar bet to see who could come up with the most useless hero. He won.) And it has a serious, inspiring episode with these weirdoes! I HAVE OPINIONS ABOUT THIS COMIC, IS WHAT I'M SAYING.
 
Last edited:
Prince Charon said:
Just a warning: It starts out good, is still good in the middle, but gets less good and less plausible toward the end (said end involving stupidity and short-sightedness that's totally in-character, but seems to be presented by the author as a good decision). Also, if you like Superman, or respect him, you are likely to dislike the last few chapters, IMHO.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I felt it wasn't worse towards the end, so much that the characters (especially Superman) were reaching the end of their rope. Lex Luthor was running out of applicable options, and Superman was running out of patience. The latter is especially important to note - yes, Superman's actions were less respectable towards the end, but that was after him having some very 'Bad Days.' Him choosing what he chose to do towards the end was him resisting Joker's 'One Bad Day,' and successfully too.

Mr Zoat said:
Metropolitan Man used the same sort of Kryptonite as he recent film; Superman goes near it and his powers turn off. It doesn't hurt him by itself.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Actually I don't think it was 'his powers turn off' so much as 'he gets gradually weaker.' Lex didn't use a high enough amount/time for his initial tests to show anything, and it only worked in the end because there was more in the walls or (more likely) because it was in Superman, as opposed to outside him.

EDIT: Oh and "Hey! What happened to the Robin!Confrontation we were looking forward too?"
 
Last edited:
random_npc said:
erugh, we've had a big thing about this. But the biggest complaint people have is that the devils luck pairs badly with compulsive risk-taking. A lot of people felt that he was just sort of skating by without consequences for stupid risky actions while Paul was getting caught with unintended consequences for even well thought-out actions.

though this largely died down after he took a pocket nuke to the face and had his adopted father drop in for a chat. But there was a good chunk of the story where he faced no fallout for actions that should have bitten him. It's not really apparent now that he's been bitten but for the few months between him kicking the hornet nest and getting stung it was sort of an issue.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
i v been reading since the beginning, and I thought he managed to be so successful because he had metaknowledge and was properly paranoid. and that he got bitten by the hornets cuz his luck ran out and that nobody expects the Darksied.
 
transhumanSage said:
i v been reading since the beginning, and I thought he managed to be so successful because he had metaknowledge and was properly paranoid. and that he got bitten by the hornets cuz his luck ran out and that nobody expects the Darksied.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

he decided to impersonate Darkseid's son, to desad, and then told desads father box to build him a soul. That is about as far from properly paranoid as it is possible to get.
 
Last edited:
finbikkifin said:
This. He's an apokoliptan new god, and a complete arsehole - sorry, Jamie, but I think that being a bit of a prick is probably a good way of getting him to play along. When all else fails, throw yourself on the mercy of the judge, jury, & executioner, and hope to amuse them.

Especially if it gives him the opportunity to insult Americans.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
he has different political belief sure, but he is a nice guy. and whose jamie
 
Remove ads
Headhunted (supplementary, Renegade option)
  • Threadmarks
    • 7th August
    16:47 GMT -5

    By now, people aren't anything like as excited about a boom tube opening inside the Centre as they used to be. The children -if there are any around- barely bother looking up from whatever they're doing. The adults generally pay a little more attention, most likely curious as to what strange freak of nature I'm going to be bringing with me today.

    Katarina Armstrong was quite definite about stepping through the boom tube ahead of me. Obviously she couldn't actually barge me out of the way, but she strode forward sufficiently fast that my choice was 'let her' or 'trample her'. I think.. maybe I should have a chat with her about what happens if a boom tube aperture opens inside of a baseline human. She took the time to switch out of the suit she wore for our meeting with Sam in favour of tight fitting black trousers and a green turtleneck sweater with a yellow diamond on the chest. That must be sweltering when she's outside, but Americans do love their air conditioning.

    The receptionist tries smiling at her. "Can I help-?"

    "We're here to see Doctor Williams." Director Armstrong sweeps past the reception desk in the direction of his office.

    "Ah..?"

    I pull a slightly strained face in the receptionist's direction and shake my head before striding after Director Armstrong. "Director, if I might intrude for a moment?"

    "Speak."

    "I can understand you confronting me like that with General Lane. I'm an awkward irregularity, trying to hold myself above the rules I expect other people to follow, and… My presence could undermine your position. Fine. When I said that I would sign up and do PR for you, I meant it. And I should really have volunteered without needing to be pushed."

    No obvious response. She could at least appreciate my magnanimousness a little bit.

    "But… This is a civilian school. Aside from a couple of minor indiscretions on Miss Selton's part and.. a couple of parking tickets, no one here has committed an offence. Or shown any propensity towards vigilantism."

    "Except your daughter and Claire Selton."

    "Miss Selton was defending herself, and it was a one time thing. The point that I wish to make is that I've got a broad back. Hurt my pride, I'll live with it. But this is my daughter's school."

    She stops and turns around, staring up at me. "Wasn't that why the British attacked it and put everyone's lives in danger?"

    I smile. "What's the point of having deniable assets if you don't deny what they do?"

    "Don't give me that. You pissed them off-"

    I glance at a nearby classroom. "Language!"

    "-and they came after this school. That's exactly the sort of thing competent operatives won't allow to happen in the future."

    "My people were on site in moments and the fatalities were zero. Even on their side."

    "And there's absolutely nothing to stop them doing it again."

    Hm. Could make reference to the Blacks' ongoing investigation, but I think it might be better if I kept her out of the loop. "Aside from the operation's total failure, the destruction of SHADE's resource base and the tremendous expense of the robot." And the fact that if something like that happens again I'm going to be a good deal less patient. "And they know that President Horne didn't believe their denial for a moment." And I hid multiphasic sensors on the roof with a hotline to Challenger Mountain and all of my personnel. Anyone trying that again would be swarmed under in G-Elves before they even reached the Center.

    Director Armstrong turns away and resumes her journey towards Doctor Williams' office, this time at a more normal walking pace. She takes the opportunity to look in through one of the interior windows at a class in progress. Not Lynne's class, but Mister Valjek is in there giving one of their parapsychics… Seers, I suppose that I should say, some personal tuition.

    "How many telepaths do you have working for you?"

    "There are hundreds of G-Gnomes in total, but only a score or so in Challenger Mountain. I imagine that the Genomorph Collective would be perfectly willing to work with you, if you're interested in acquiring the capacity for telepathic information gathering."

    "They were made by Cadmus."

    "The original material was acquired from elsewhere, but this particular refinement was, yes."

    "Cadmus is Luthor. Luthor is the enemy. I'm not hiring anything he made." She turns the corner, entering the corridor with Doctor Williams' office in it. "The children here, on the other hand…"

    "May consider a career in law enforcement if they and their parents are approached appropriately. I would remind you that this place had trouble with SHADE and that they no longer receive any sort of government funding. I strongly recommend donning your more beneficent aspect if you want to get anything out of this."

    "I'll take it under advisement." She takes hold of the door handle and sharply turns it before shoving the door open. "Doctor Williams."

    He looks up from his computer -a slightly more modern model than when I first visited him- and blinks at her for a moment. "Oh. You must be-."

    "Director Armstrong of the DMA."

    I walk in behind her and close the door behind me, giving Doctor Williams a mildly apologetic wave.

    "You're a.. little early, but I wasn't doing anything I can't put on hold." He presses something on his keyboard, then steeples his hands on the desk in front of him. "Can I offer you some coffee?"

    "No. Thank you. What I want to-." She steps back as a chair floats from the side of the room to a position just in front of his desk.

    "Please, take a seat."

    I wonder if she's taken any notice of what I was telling her. I want the DMA to succeed. Doctor Williams doesn't care much either way. To be honest, he'd probably rather it failed, as someone in central government getting interested is likely to generate extra busywork for him. Then… There's the fact that he could probably squeeze her jugular vein closed…

    "Thank you, Doctor."

    And a slight smile. Good show. I take my own chair out of subspace and plonk myself down just behind her to her left, noting that the chair he selected for her leaves her head just slightly lower than his.

    "So." He smiles. "What can I do for you?"

    "I'm interested in the work you do here. You train young children with innate psychic powers how to use them better. There are a few other places across the US that do something similar, but only on a much smaller scale."

    "Yes, that's certainly true. I have correspondences with most of them."

    "The DMA is going to be looking to train adults with all sorts of powers. Most people with super powers either try and work them out on their own, or get taught by someone else with powers. That happens even if they join the military. The United States has never had a decent federal training program. I'm going to build one, and I want help from you and your staff."

    "I see. What.. sort of help?"

    "I want to hire them for my program. Or rent them. They have expertise that their country needs. And I want them teaching people to do what they do, the techniques they use. Obviously the DMA would be paying for everything."

    Doctor Williams thinks about it for a moment. "That sounds reasonable. We do.. actually do some work with adults here. Today's lessons will be ending soon if you'd like to talk to some of the staff."

    She nods. "Yes. I would."

    "And… You… Don't want to draft any of our students..?"

    "I'd like it if any of them with useful abilities came to work for us, but the US military is a volunteer organization. I'd like to get someone in to do career talks with the older students, but if they don't want to join up, fine. I don't know what SHADE was trying to pull here, but my organization is going to be legitimate."

    Doctor Williams smiles. "Then I think we should be able to work together."
     
    Last edited:
  • Threadmarks
    • Mr Zoat said:
    "I'd like it if any of them with useful abilities came to work for us, but the US military is a volunteer organisation. I'd like to get someone in to do career talks with the older students, but if they don't want to join up, fine. I don't know what SHADE was trying to pull here, but my organisation is going to be legitimate."
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    ....she may be an asshole, but she's an asshole with honor and integrity. America could do worse.
     
    Eh.
    I'm simply assuming that Armstrong is a compromise candidate that the US President was persuaded to appoint in order to appease certain constituencies. Certainly doesn't feel like a first choice for someone in a job where diplomacy and negotiation is a very big part of their remit.

    Even Waller isn't as abrasive as this lady is turning out to be.
     
    Last edited:
    uju32 said:
    Eh.
    I'm simply assuming that Armstrong is a compromise candidate that the US President was persuaded to appoint in order to appease certain constituencies. Certainly doesn't feel like a first choice for someone in a job where diplomacy and negotiation is a very big part of their remit.

    Even Waller isn't as abrasive as this lady is turning out to be.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    it could be subtle sabotage. get a candidate who seems otherwise competent into a position where her major weakness is the most important aspect. Graven leaves grudges in his wake like Batman leaves batarangs. petty or otherwise this could be a dig at him.
     
    varoksa said:
    So currently Renegade Paul is protecting a school of children from government meddling while Paragon Paul breaks into heavily militarized prisons.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    Paragon Paul isn't the "good guy" and Renegade Paul isn't the "bad guy" in this story and they basically never have been. We might "like" Paragon Paul better but somehow... I've always related to Renegade more.
     
    Reader mode
    24,441 more messages…
    Status
    Not open for further replies.
    Remove ads
    Back
    Top