Can the Citadelians even function day to day without someone controlling them?
With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Twelve)
- Thread starter Mr Zoat
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Hampden Park
No open quote on the second line of speech.
Empiricist2
Let's play doctor!
- Location
- Baton Rouge
Unless I'm mistaken, the First gave the civilization as a whole an overarching unity and stability where otherwise such a warlike species would tear itself apart. Or break itself upon some bigger fish in the galactic pond. It was mentioned previously that most everyone hates the Emperor for being too soft, but the First made that general mutterings of dissent rather than constant cycles of deposing the Emperor then becoming just like him.
So the civilization won't survive without the First, and outsiders already noticed the change within days, but as individuals they can get by just fine without him.
Of course they would hesitate. Pissing off a Lantern that has no restriction on killing you for doing so isn't a move to take lightly.
You are controlling them for the rest of their lives. It's only a matter of how long those lives will actually last.
tgojeff
(Verified Pinwheel)
- Location
- Los Angeles
Only his soul, really
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Actually he's up one soul already.
- Location
- The Carnival
I read this line in the voice of Abridged!Perfect Cell, and now it won't go away.
Help.
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- Location
- Chile
I kept wandering why was Komand'r going all RWBY until I read more carefully.
- Location
- Hampden Park
Thank you, corrected.
- Location
- Ashtabula
Yeah, it was an entire plot point that OL didn't have a soul when he got there. Now he does....it's just the heart of the embodiment of all of this dimension's avarice.
Demon: "Agreed, mortal. The artifact I guard is yours in return for your immortal soul."
OL: "Agreed. Here it is."
Soul: "MINE!"
Demon: "What?! AIIIEEE!!!"
OL: "Done? Back in you go, soul."
Constantine: "Watching that never gets old."
- Location
- Earth Prime
Koriand'r (and potentially Paul) have a quality that can make the brands unnecessary - she cares about her forces in a way that can win reciprocal loyalty. However, that takes time to develop, and the trouble with mind-control of this sort is that you can never know if it is developing. Nor how, freed from it, the fact it was used will make them too angry to develop said loyalty naturally.
I don't doubt that the Citidelian was correct, in the sense that he'd probably be happier, sans brand, being loyal to and working for Paul than he would be being loyal to and working for the Emperor or one of the Admirals-as-new-Emperor. Whether the brand and his own native stated-to-be-less-than-stellar-intellect would leave the Citidelian capable of accurately predicting his own hypothetical mental state sans brand, however, is highly dubious.
It's tempting to think that he's right, because that makes it easier to justify what's being done. "See? I'm making their lives better!" But that is a dangerous path of justification to walk.
I don't doubt that the Citidelian was correct, in the sense that he'd probably be happier, sans brand, being loyal to and working for Paul than he would be being loyal to and working for the Emperor or one of the Admirals-as-new-Emperor. Whether the brand and his own native stated-to-be-less-than-stellar-intellect would leave the Citidelian capable of accurately predicting his own hypothetical mental state sans brand, however, is highly dubious.
It's tempting to think that he's right, because that makes it easier to justify what's being done. "See? I'm making their lives better!" But that is a dangerous path of justification to walk.
- Location
- Just hanging
I've never saw the problem with Paul's use of mind control due to the fact that the beings who end up being controlled either deserve it or the situation demands immediate damage control to avoid the situation from spiraling out of control.
In this case the citadel soldiers are sentient meat puppets indoctrinated to follow the First's orders and instincts. Which are not disposed to any format of altruism that Paul would find acceptable.
Plus if it wasn't Paul treating the grunts as disposable pawns it would have been the First, the emperor, or anyone higher up the totem pole.
The difference being Paul is somewhat put off by stripping a being of their free will but will do so if deemed a necessary action, where anyone else would take advantage of their new found control and do terrible things on a whim.
In this case the citadel soldiers are sentient meat puppets indoctrinated to follow the First's orders and instincts. Which are not disposed to any format of altruism that Paul would find acceptable.
Plus if it wasn't Paul treating the grunts as disposable pawns it would have been the First, the emperor, or anyone higher up the totem pole.
The difference being Paul is somewhat put off by stripping a being of their free will but will do so if deemed a necessary action, where anyone else would take advantage of their new found control and do terrible things on a whim.
Chaoswind
Lord of nonsense
- Location
- Latin America
Wrong. It has been a consistent plot point that Citadelians value their people extremely highly, even the individual clones that have fucked up so badly to end up as slaves are still regarding extremely highly. The Citadelians don't give much of a fuck about everyone else, but they do care about their own people.
Headhunting (part 22)
- Location
- Hampden Park
27th July
05:58 GMT
The thing about Emperor Damyn -when compared to most emperors- is that he isn't special.
He wasn't born into an ancient dynasty and raised in the expectation that he would one day occupy a position of great power, educated and trained by the best tutors and generals his family could find. He wasn't so outstanding an individual that he rose to stratospheric heights due to superlative personal skills and achievements that set him apart from his fellow man. Citadelians are clones. They start identical, and aside from rare attempts they hardly ever vary the formula that has worked so well for so long. He was given the same education that all of those around him received and experienced the same social factors that they did. He rose from infantryman to officer not by being more capable than those around him but by being luckier.
Oh, as he grew older he seemed to get the hang of the political elements slightly faster than those around him, but given his origins he could be almost totally certain that was the result of environmental factors. And then, when the previous Emperor finally failed the First for the last time, he was bumped up for reasons he couldn't understand. Implanted with a few more upgrades and compelled to remain on the Citadel Complex. Given that the First would have been in his thoughts more than in those of any other officer… Did he know that something was going on? Or just..? Feel powerless despite his apparent power? Or was it just frustration at being at the top with nowhere else to go?
Since he was basically a seat-cover for the First's throne, I suppose that I shouldn't be too surprised that he developed a drug habit. But being visibly out of it when making an important call? That was just stupid. Did he get too used to having the First nudge him whenever he had to do something important, or has the stress of actually being in charge already turned him from a recreational user to a full on dependant?
No idea. But it looks like he hasn't lost all of his planning skills.
Across a wide open plaza force field barricades and stationary support weapons are covering every approach to the command section. True armoured vehicles and fliers couldn't fit in that part of the station, but between drones and the heavy-variant power armour being worn by the elite guard they've done their best under the circumstances. Marines in my service are finishing clearing the entertainment section behind them of slaves -and suggesting that the remaining residents might want to find somewhere else to be- while others are forming up in preparation to assault the defences. They're outnumbered about three to one and every so often the defenders take a long range shot with their heavy weapons at the buildings they're using for concealment. The internal structures of Citadel Complex are resistant to infantry scale weapons but heavy weapons go through them easily.
I try scanning the elite. Twenty three of them in total, but what exactly does their armour do?
Unable to identify.
No, that would have been too much to hope for.
"Strike Team Leaders. Switch to cold guns and return fire."
Obedience is immediate, and I feel a momentary pang about the influence I have over these people. They're malevolent and most likely irredeemable, but…
I wouldn't trust anyone else with this power. Heh, even though I'm going to be giving it to hundreds of people. It's not a contradiction; I'll just be keeping an eye on how they use it, hoping for the best and quietly expecting the worst. Do I trust myself with it? I certainly don't like using it, but the alternative was.. killing them. And possibly not being able to sneak in here at all. The advantage this has over assimilation is that the organic person survives and this can be turned off. If Tamaran takes me up on my offer, I'll have to leave it on permanently. There's no way they would integrate peacefully into any society… I don't think. Amalak said that he wanted some. Would that work?
As my marines begin moving into firing positions they start taking plasma fire from the front line of infantry on the other side of the plaza. Range is seldom a problem during fights on space stations, though plasma attenuation might have been a problem if we tried coming in through the outer hull. Rather, they had been holding off firing their smaller weapons due to the need to score multiple hits on the same target to pierce their shields. Their rear lines are holding fire, perhaps waiting to see if our side intends to charge. Their heavy weapons cease their sporadic firing, aiming at points where our side appears to be massing.
And then the cold guns open fire.
Interesting thing about cold guns: due to the nature of the weird, standard-model-of-physics-breaking thing it does, most types of force field don't work against it. Which means that those barricades the loyalists have erected do little to stop the white beams of absolute zero striking home wherever they're pointed. The armour material the barricades are made of causes them to serve as reasonable insulators, designed as they are to maintain integrity against plasma fire. As a result, localised super-cooling causes them to crack and fracture and expose the gun emplacements behind them. Other shots hit the guns themselves, cracking barrels and containment bottles. The incredible cold combined with the weapons' own safety measures causes most of them to fail safe, but I see three go critical and explode while seven others experience serious leaks. The fliers fall from the air almost immediately, their anti-gravity systems completely unable to keep functioning when cooled to zero Kelvin.
And the effect on the infantry…
Mister Snart has really been soft-pedalling people.
The outer layer of Citadelian power armour is designed to be a good conductor in order to prevent multiple plasma or laser shots to the same location piercing it. The same is true of the muscle enhancement systems underneath. The only thing that really helps is that the armour doesn't have cybernetic plugs to aid the user.
It doesn't help by much.
It takes about two seconds for a beam focusing on an infantryman to freeze them solid. Not that they fire like that; the combined effect of several beams works just as well and whole squads are firing. They.. work along the lines of our enemy, six beams striking their targets one after the other and leaving frosted statues in their wake.
Return fire picks up immediately, everyone firing, plasma trails making it look like the air is on fire. The armour of the elite soldiers appears to have something… Some sort of ultra-insulation or a plasma barrier, perhaps? That allows them to survive getting hit. I'm not even sure that the cold beams are making contact.
I see the first of my marines start taking hits. They respond by moving, trying to prevent themselves taking multiple hits in the same point and getting behind cover before their shields fail completely. But there's a lot of fire coming back this way and several go down. Most of those that do won't be getting back up.
"Those weapons of yours are rather effective. Are they of Psion manufacture, or did you bring them from Maltus?"
"No, those were designed on Earth."
"Fascinating." She almost.. purrs it.
"But I'm afraid that they're not for sale. And I'll be taking them back from the Citadelians once we're finished here."
"Oh, is that really necessary? I'll admit to hating the Citadel but they.. die rather well. I could think of dozens of uses I could put them to."
"No shortcuts, Komand'r. If you want nifty technology, get Tamaran reindustrialised faster and develop it yourselves. If you want my aid, I have limits. If you can manage it on your own, good luck to you."
The defenders are down to a fifth of their starting number while ours have taken far fewer casualties. In several places the defenders are wavering and pulling back. Good show. Now, what are-.
The elite guard charge, stowing their plasma weapons and opening fire with integrated positron beam projectors. They cross the intervening plaza at a loping, power armour assisted run, ignoring cold beams as they come. In return their own weapons are.. cutting marines down with worrying regularity. They apparently down shields far faster than plasma. Not.. sure why they weren't using them from the start. They're two thirds of the way across when our units start switching back to plasma and pulling back into the entertainment section, aiming to limit the elite's mobility. And stem the bleeding from the elite's attack.
"Is it time for us to involve ourselves directly?"
"I believe so. Koriand'r?" I glance over to where she's greeting the latest group of former slaves. A couple of Tamaranians are amongst them.
"I would rather remain here-." Her ring dims, and the light she was using to mend their wounds ceases. She looks momentarily shamefaced, then rallies. "I will oversee the evacuation."
"Very well. Komand'r, with me. We need one to interrogate. Kill the rest."
"My pleasure."
05:58 GMT
The thing about Emperor Damyn -when compared to most emperors- is that he isn't special.
He wasn't born into an ancient dynasty and raised in the expectation that he would one day occupy a position of great power, educated and trained by the best tutors and generals his family could find. He wasn't so outstanding an individual that he rose to stratospheric heights due to superlative personal skills and achievements that set him apart from his fellow man. Citadelians are clones. They start identical, and aside from rare attempts they hardly ever vary the formula that has worked so well for so long. He was given the same education that all of those around him received and experienced the same social factors that they did. He rose from infantryman to officer not by being more capable than those around him but by being luckier.
Oh, as he grew older he seemed to get the hang of the political elements slightly faster than those around him, but given his origins he could be almost totally certain that was the result of environmental factors. And then, when the previous Emperor finally failed the First for the last time, he was bumped up for reasons he couldn't understand. Implanted with a few more upgrades and compelled to remain on the Citadel Complex. Given that the First would have been in his thoughts more than in those of any other officer… Did he know that something was going on? Or just..? Feel powerless despite his apparent power? Or was it just frustration at being at the top with nowhere else to go?
Since he was basically a seat-cover for the First's throne, I suppose that I shouldn't be too surprised that he developed a drug habit. But being visibly out of it when making an important call? That was just stupid. Did he get too used to having the First nudge him whenever he had to do something important, or has the stress of actually being in charge already turned him from a recreational user to a full on dependant?
No idea. But it looks like he hasn't lost all of his planning skills.
Across a wide open plaza force field barricades and stationary support weapons are covering every approach to the command section. True armoured vehicles and fliers couldn't fit in that part of the station, but between drones and the heavy-variant power armour being worn by the elite guard they've done their best under the circumstances. Marines in my service are finishing clearing the entertainment section behind them of slaves -and suggesting that the remaining residents might want to find somewhere else to be- while others are forming up in preparation to assault the defences. They're outnumbered about three to one and every so often the defenders take a long range shot with their heavy weapons at the buildings they're using for concealment. The internal structures of Citadel Complex are resistant to infantry scale weapons but heavy weapons go through them easily.
I try scanning the elite. Twenty three of them in total, but what exactly does their armour do?
Unable to identify.
No, that would have been too much to hope for.
"Strike Team Leaders. Switch to cold guns and return fire."
Obedience is immediate, and I feel a momentary pang about the influence I have over these people. They're malevolent and most likely irredeemable, but…
I wouldn't trust anyone else with this power. Heh, even though I'm going to be giving it to hundreds of people. It's not a contradiction; I'll just be keeping an eye on how they use it, hoping for the best and quietly expecting the worst. Do I trust myself with it? I certainly don't like using it, but the alternative was.. killing them. And possibly not being able to sneak in here at all. The advantage this has over assimilation is that the organic person survives and this can be turned off. If Tamaran takes me up on my offer, I'll have to leave it on permanently. There's no way they would integrate peacefully into any society… I don't think. Amalak said that he wanted some. Would that work?
As my marines begin moving into firing positions they start taking plasma fire from the front line of infantry on the other side of the plaza. Range is seldom a problem during fights on space stations, though plasma attenuation might have been a problem if we tried coming in through the outer hull. Rather, they had been holding off firing their smaller weapons due to the need to score multiple hits on the same target to pierce their shields. Their rear lines are holding fire, perhaps waiting to see if our side intends to charge. Their heavy weapons cease their sporadic firing, aiming at points where our side appears to be massing.
And then the cold guns open fire.
Interesting thing about cold guns: due to the nature of the weird, standard-model-of-physics-breaking thing it does, most types of force field don't work against it. Which means that those barricades the loyalists have erected do little to stop the white beams of absolute zero striking home wherever they're pointed. The armour material the barricades are made of causes them to serve as reasonable insulators, designed as they are to maintain integrity against plasma fire. As a result, localised super-cooling causes them to crack and fracture and expose the gun emplacements behind them. Other shots hit the guns themselves, cracking barrels and containment bottles. The incredible cold combined with the weapons' own safety measures causes most of them to fail safe, but I see three go critical and explode while seven others experience serious leaks. The fliers fall from the air almost immediately, their anti-gravity systems completely unable to keep functioning when cooled to zero Kelvin.
And the effect on the infantry…
Mister Snart has really been soft-pedalling people.
The outer layer of Citadelian power armour is designed to be a good conductor in order to prevent multiple plasma or laser shots to the same location piercing it. The same is true of the muscle enhancement systems underneath. The only thing that really helps is that the armour doesn't have cybernetic plugs to aid the user.
It doesn't help by much.
It takes about two seconds for a beam focusing on an infantryman to freeze them solid. Not that they fire like that; the combined effect of several beams works just as well and whole squads are firing. They.. work along the lines of our enemy, six beams striking their targets one after the other and leaving frosted statues in their wake.
Return fire picks up immediately, everyone firing, plasma trails making it look like the air is on fire. The armour of the elite soldiers appears to have something… Some sort of ultra-insulation or a plasma barrier, perhaps? That allows them to survive getting hit. I'm not even sure that the cold beams are making contact.
I see the first of my marines start taking hits. They respond by moving, trying to prevent themselves taking multiple hits in the same point and getting behind cover before their shields fail completely. But there's a lot of fire coming back this way and several go down. Most of those that do won't be getting back up.
"Those weapons of yours are rather effective. Are they of Psion manufacture, or did you bring them from Maltus?"
"No, those were designed on Earth."
"Fascinating." She almost.. purrs it.
"But I'm afraid that they're not for sale. And I'll be taking them back from the Citadelians once we're finished here."
"Oh, is that really necessary? I'll admit to hating the Citadel but they.. die rather well. I could think of dozens of uses I could put them to."
"No shortcuts, Komand'r. If you want nifty technology, get Tamaran reindustrialised faster and develop it yourselves. If you want my aid, I have limits. If you can manage it on your own, good luck to you."
The defenders are down to a fifth of their starting number while ours have taken far fewer casualties. In several places the defenders are wavering and pulling back. Good show. Now, what are-.
The elite guard charge, stowing their plasma weapons and opening fire with integrated positron beam projectors. They cross the intervening plaza at a loping, power armour assisted run, ignoring cold beams as they come. In return their own weapons are.. cutting marines down with worrying regularity. They apparently down shields far faster than plasma. Not.. sure why they weren't using them from the start. They're two thirds of the way across when our units start switching back to plasma and pulling back into the entertainment section, aiming to limit the elite's mobility. And stem the bleeding from the elite's attack.
"Is it time for us to involve ourselves directly?"
"I believe so. Koriand'r?" I glance over to where she's greeting the latest group of former slaves. A couple of Tamaranians are amongst them.
"I would rather remain here-." Her ring dims, and the light she was using to mend their wounds ceases. She looks momentarily shamefaced, then rallies. "I will oversee the evacuation."
"Very well. Komand'r, with me. We need one to interrogate. Kill the rest."
"My pleasure."
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zhuull
SB still lying to protect Racists what else is new
Please tell me we will eventually get to see a scene of Paul sharing all of this field data on the cold guns with Snart?
I would love to see his reaction to all of these advanced alien species drooling over his technology.
SaltyWaffles
I am dissapoint, son
- Pronouns
- He/Him
"shortcut" and "forcefield" are each one word. Similarly, "heavy-variant" should be hyphenated if variant is being used as a modifier/adjective for a subject/object.
Blazinghand
O cursèd spite
- Location
- California
That's quite a difference in their ability to maintain the orange light mindset under stress.
- Location
- Hampden Park
Thank you, corrected.
That's not what my spell checker says, or what I've been doing up until now.
Not to mention perhaps getting him some leniency for never cranking up his weapons to lethal levels? Or did he deliberately design his cold guns to only operate at lower power settings?
GhostKing 666
Bringing Nightmares to life evey minute
I just want to see the US military start to adopt them for use themselves. I think they are in the Renegade timeline but I'm not sure about the Paragon timeline.
I've certainly seen both "forcefield" and "force field" any number of times in various works. Notably, Wikipedia uses the two-word version.
rkyeun
Cabbitus Maximus
- Location
- ◕ ‿‿ ◕
If rattlesnake is appropriate instead of rattle snake, then I deem forcefield to be appropriate instead of force field. If I'm doing physics, and I have an actual vector field, which corresponds to an actual force with differing values at every point in space, I'm quite happy to call that a force field. But if you're talking a sci-fi wall of magic nope with a straight hard edge... well, that's a forcefield.
- Location
- Ashtabula
I won't deny, it has crossed my mind.
- Status