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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Twelve)

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Yeah, which is why we see even Paragon!Paul killing apokliptians, though he understands that the mind control is not strictly speaking everywhere, and some may be convertable/salvaged/deconditioned.
I seem to feel that Paragon's rules on lethal force is more or less if it wouldn't actually kill them, if there is no other prospect for stopping them, or if they have an unfixable mind control problem.
I am somewhat confused as to how threatening chantinelle fits into this.
 
Avernus said:
Given their general attitude and behavior, I'd suspect them of shaping and controlling the minds of their young from the moment of birth/hatching/whatever; or even earlier. If that's so then there's no way to remove the mind control because there's no non-controlled core self to remove it from.
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And yet Zoat thinks he can do so with the Spider Guild, Gordanians, pirate nations, etc. Why not the Reach?

This update alone gave us proof that many Reach soldiers are slaves taken from other races and that the mind-control implants can be safely removed.
 
nasuren said:
...if Paul wants to get rid of the Reach, I'd suggest simply grabbing a handful of Red Rings and tossing them into Reach Territory. The Reach itself and it's pacified slaves won't be able to use them, but the hate directed at them on conquered world would allow the Rings to replace the Red Lanterns faster than they can kill them.

I mean, it's possible right?
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Theoretically..?

First, you'd have to actually make some red rings. Second, you'd have to have some way of ensuring that the resulting berserker did something useful and third you'd have to come up with a way to stop the Reach subverting the seeker protocols or the users.
killfr3nzy said:
And yet Zoat thinks he can do so with the Spider Guild, Gordanians, pirate nations, etc. Why not the Reach?

This update alone gave us proof that many Reach soldiers are slaves taken from other races and that the mind-control implants can be safely removed.
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'Can be removed' isn't quite the same as 'are generally practical to remove during combat'.

The Reach Empire is larger and more unified than any of the other groups and has been going longer than any except some of the oldest Nests. They are correspondingly much harder to change. Not impossible, but very very difficult, verging effectively impossible in the short term.
 
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Also, the mind control devices were specifically referred to as giving a more positive impression pf the Reach, and mind control like that is difficult to deal with and may not result in removal of a threat in the medium term.
 
Mr Zoat said:
"The Controllers can reshape worlds. It's not easy for them and it's not quick, but… Yeah. We can. We get about half of our recruits from those worlds. Threllian comes from there. The Reach butchered most of his people to use their brains as computers."
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Is that why Threllian seems halfway off, because he was at least partially damaged to make him a CPU by The Reach?
 
Nervaqus987 said:
Is an entire sector of space about to become self aware and start killing all life within?
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o_O:jackiechan::facepalm:
so this deity is made real by widespread belief, and then merges with a chunk of the universe (that just happens to match the borders of a 'sector' as defined by beings who live very far away) and the first thing it does is to kill all life within itself (there by removing all the believers who willed it into existence). But not harmed at all by the destruction of it's power source (and why would it have power over worlds where it was not worshiped?), it was apparently wished up as an all-powerful God, who was also pretty damn gullible as the Guardians basically told it they were more powerful and it fell for it with out even putting it to the test. DC has come up with some dumb shit over the years (admittedly, so has Marvel and most other long running collections/comics/shows/etc, it's a side effect of being long-running)

hance1986 said:
Is that why Threllian seems halfway off, because he was at least partially damaged to make him a CPU by The Reach?
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The fact his people's brains could be used as computers by The Reach indicates his people's thought processes are non-standard, so the 'off'-ness may simply be a side effect of his mental wiring.
 
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"Fixing" the reach is impractical bordering on impossible. We get that.
The reason this is throwing so many people off is because so was the rest of it.


Half the groups Paul has interacted with since coming to Vega should have been just as irredeemable, but somehow Paul managed to talk them around anyway, and never seemed to consider not doing so.

It's the switch between "Diplomacy is the best option!" and "Murder is the only option!" when dealing with two groups that seem to be equally evil and untrustworthy.
 
The big problem with the green lantern corps is that very very few people are actually elgible.
We have seen throughout the years some pretty... ineffective GLs, and those where chosen by the seeker program, as more suitable than billions of others.
Anyways, Paul dealing with the reach has the exact same problem as the GLs did. It would take far, far, to much resources to deal with.
 
Nervaqus987 said:
Is an entire sector of space about to become self aware and start killing all life within?
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I can understand the concept of a region of space gaining self-awareness, but I'm not quite sure how I can see how such a being would interact with humanoid-scale beings. Creating a projection would make sense, but that's just an avatar at that point...

Norgarth said:
so this deity is made real by widespread belief [...] not harmed at all by the destruction of it's power source
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Just because it was originally empowered by something doesn't necessarily mean it requires the continued presence of it to remain empowered. Your father empowered you in a couple of minutes. Your mother stopped being essential for your continued existence after about nine months. They helped you out after that, but in the end you were responsible for your own self-preservation.

aetherialDawn said:
entirely wrong in a corresponding negative universe anyway.
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So in some universe, the Reach is going around bringing civilizations into an alliance to save them from evil?
 
iamnuff said:
"Fixing" the reach is impractical bordering on impossible. We get that.
The reason this is throwing so many people off is because so was the rest of it.


Half the groups Paul has interacted with since coming to Vega should have been just as irredeemable, but somehow Paul managed to talk them around anyway, and never seemed to consider not doing so.

It's the switch between "Diplomacy is the best option!" and "Murder is the only option!" when dealing with two groups that seem to be equally evil and untrustworthy.
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As someone who was actually annoyed by OL coddling and actually aiding those groups, I gotta throw out a defense here. There isn't really much right now to show that OL won't up and smash those same groups should they meet again. That his diplomacy was only there in that specific instance, both to keep the population of the planet out of the crossfire, and get his foot in the door. What he did basically laid the groundwork that led him straight to Starfire and Blackfire, and gave him some time to set up Tamaran's defenses without being hounded by the forces he had violently said hello to.

There isn't much to say that he won't dump a can of raid into the very Spider ship he once protected if they don't want to play ball his way. Granted, it does still gall me, what he did. But at the same time...he has achieved a goal or two, and he is perhaps on the cusp of building an army/corps.

The other thing is....I don't think he could trick the Reach like he tricked the others. Given their history with Lanterns and meatpuppet practices. I don't think they would even try to hear him out, more then they would try to lure him in, to kill/steal from.
 
A sector becoming sentient and then killing everything isn't nesscarily a humanoid scale thing. Civilizations make big, noisy things, and that could be reasonably detectable at say, a planetary scale. Killing things in droves would just be finding where the disruption of civilization is.
But yes, scale is rather incongruous.
Random thought: I think the idea of the Green Lantern Corps ever protecting the whole universe was ever realistic (beyond occasional confrontations with cosmic scale entities that could threaten the universe), but I would think that it would be reasonable for there to be a separate lantern corps for each galaxy, each dealt with by another smallish group of maltusians. I mean, the modern green lantern corps was lead by like a dozen people, so if that could be scaled to galactic cluster or something...
I wonder which members of the team would be intrested in joining his interstellar affairs.
Does Paul plan on creating lantern stuff for colors other than orange beyond something for Alan? The only problem I could see from that would be the slight problem of the emotion entities being able to remote shut down even unaffiliated rings.
 
Mr Zoat said:
The Reach Empire is larger and more unified than any of the other groups and has been going longer than any except some of the oldest Nests. They are correspondingly much harder to change. Not impossible, but very very difficult, verging effectively impossible in the short term.
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So was everyone else. But you still helped them, attacked as nonlethal as possible, resettled them etc.

I mean, can you point to a single 'evil' group in Vega that has started to become any less shit? The 'best' that's happened so far is weaker groups joining forces.

Mr Zoat said:
'Can be removed' isn't quite the same as 'are generally practical to remove during combat'.
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So don't do it in combat - are you really telling me that in the entire Green Lantern Corps database of technology he stole, there's no less-lethal weapons or crowd-control gear?

Given OL has pinpoint aim with his ring-guided railguns, destroy their weapons and then use stun-rounds and/or containment foam or something - a little maiming, even, is reasonable if hard-pressed, seeing as how you can just heal them later.
 
killfr3nzy said:
So was everyone else. But you still helped them, attacked as nonlethal as possible, resettled them etc.
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The Tearing Bite group the SI resettled numbers less than two thousand. The Amalak commands something like two hundred thousand troops and sailors. The planet Jarko rules has a total population in the low hundreds of millions and his actual followers are a fraction of that. The Nest the Queen comes from has a population in the tens of millions but as a result of the war only a very small fleet.

The Reach has a population in the low trillions.

Amalak has been running his organisation for several decades. Jarko his for a little over a decade. The Queen has been in power for less than a year.

The Reach has been expanding for thousands of years.

There's a critical difference in scale here.
So don't do it in combat - are you really telling me that in the entire Green Lantern Corps database of technology he stole, there's no less-lethal weapons or crowd-control gear?

Given OL has pinpoint aim with his ring-guided railguns, destroy their weapons and then use stun-rounds and/or containment foam or something - a little maiming, even, is reasonable if hard-pressed, seeing as how you can just heal them later.
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Sure. Plenty. And every single bit of it is less effective than the lethal versions.

The SI can't heal Reach personnel. He knows them too well.
 
he'll kill if he has to. As in if there are no good nonlethal ways to solve the issue. If chantinelle had refused to reconciles she would have been an active threat and a demon who chose to be what she is, so he would have been okish with killing her.
 
Just caught up on this story. Holy Mary on Molly, that took a minute.

Is this story anywhere that includes a word count? If I'd known what I was getting into I might have approached differently.

I'd like a better explanation for the Justice League's decision regarding Nabu, which I hope will come with the return. No problem with them reaping their harvest of dissent for the seeds of deceit sown in the soil of trust (and justice). But I'd like to know better the story they tell themselves.
 
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loserthree said:
Just caught up on this story. Holy Mary on Molly, that took a minute.

Is this story anywhere that include a word count? If I'd known what I was getting into I might have approached differently.

I'd like a better explanation for the Justice League's decision regarding Nabu, which I hope will come with the return. No problem with them reaping their harvest of dissent for the seeds of deceit sown in the soil of trust (and justice). But I'd like to know better the story they tell themselves.
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It should tell you what the word count is on the thread itself. Even then it only includes all the posts in that one specific thread. This thread has over 750k words apparently.
 
Coda said:
Just because it was originally empowered by something doesn't necessarily mean it requires the continued presence of it to remain empowered.
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good point

loserthree said:
I'd like a better explanation for the Justice League's decision regarding Nabu, which I hope will come with the return. No problem with them reaping their harvest of dissent for the seeds of deceit sown in the soil of trust (and justice). But I'd like to know better the story they tell themselves.
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Unfortunately, even in canon it was never really explained what the League's plans/reasoning for Nabu was. All we know is after the 5 year time skip, he was still on Mr Zatarra's head full time.
Then again there was also the 'wait 5 years to put the League of trial for their mind-controlled actions' plot line that didn't make much sense either.
 
I am sincerely surprised the Controllers are willing to make worlds for evacuees to settle. It's honestly more pragmatic than I'd expect of the species best known for creating Sun-Eaters.
 
I just noticed that when talking to darkseid, Grayven's quotes were yellow, but I am unsure as to why. Could I please get an explination about that?
 
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