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Now I have a question. If OL had the opportunity...should he kill Darkseid? On one hand....It's Darkseid. But on the other...I mean think of the instability it would cause. All those people, having never lived anywhere but other than under Darkseid's cruel, but stable, boot. Oh and the infighting! Think of the wars that would start as the remaining lackey's fought for control!

I don't know man....would Ol even have the right to kill the New God of Tyranny? Tyrants are people too, and he only wants to enslave all of existence.
In some continuities, (permanently) killing Darkseid means you become the God of Tyranny, with your mental outlook slowly becoming more extreme. I believe that Grayven noted that this had happened to Justice Lords Kal-El.
Agent Orange plus 'everyone should obey me' equals 'Orangest Night'

As for the actual conquest of Tameran...
"He came here about forty years ago. He lived in the capital for a number of years, and participated in our war against the Citadel. If.. you were hoping to meet him, I am sorry. As far as anyone knows he was killed during the fighting."

I nod. "Which brings me to the actual reason for my visit. What requirements did the Citadel place on Tamaran after your people lost the war?"
"Is it.. one clan up there, or do they rotate?"

"No clan would accept sharing us with another. Our records from the war show that the Tearing Bite clan distinguished themselves in combat, and so were rewarded with.. us."
These bits indicate it was the Citadelians who attacked, bombarded, and conquered Tamaran. The Tearing Bite Clan may have assisted, or they may have earned a reward serving Citadel interests in some other conflict/battle.
 
Right, so.
Nabu was killed because killing him achieved a good (freed Giovanni Zatara) and because Nabu was continuously committing evil (enslaving Giovanni Zatara.)
Paul's personal attachment - and the fact that Nabu expected to be treated as a Justice League hero - is what convinced Paul that the good Nabu did was not worth the moral compromise to the whole League.

Let's talk about that 'moral compromise' for a bit, before people shout about Adom.

Adom does not claim not to kill; he believes and wishes to be considered a net good to the world, but he is willing to re-examine himself to ensure that is true, most especially because he is willing to go against the normal code of conduct for heroes. That is to say, he is willing to hold political power, and he is willing to kill the outrageously guilty in combat.

The Justice League, meanwhile, wants to go beyond that and be essentially incorruptible - they want to go so far as to not hold any political power themselves, and to not even kill the guilty if they can avoid it. This means that accepting Nabu and, worse, concealing his crimes is a betrayal. I have heard elsewhere and support myself that hypocrisy is one of the clearest sins even when it is not the greatest, because even the hypocrite agrees that they are in the wrong.

But more importantly than that, the Justice League does not engage in self-examination very much, if at all. It took prompting from Paul before they brought Paul in to examine them - without him, they would not have done so. Any compromise the League makes is magnified because they lack the self-awareness to correct for it.


Okay, now that gives us a bit of context about Nabu, but what about the Gordanians?
Well, the number one thing here is pretty simple: Gordanians are not born evil. As far as we know, no species is. One could argue that demons are... but that requires a rather tortuous definition of 'born', since they're drawn from evil souls and then further aren't considered demons until they're sufficiently evil, and Hell engages measures to ensure that remains so.
Going back to Gordanians then: The ships Paul is on have Gordanian children, so at the very least he's not interested in killing all of them, and brute destruction of the ships will kill a lot of innocents as well. If he were going to tolerate so much collateral death to innocents then it's more tactically sound to just kill the Tamaraneans too, since trying to evacuate them gives the Gordanians warning they could potentially use to fire weapons at Paul or the planet.

Additionally, Paul has now confirmed that there are other ships, and these other ships are dangers to Tamaran, and so he has more investigation to do before he can keep Tamaran safe from this clan's military. This means that tactically speaking, killing the Gordanians here immediately is an even worse idea until he can get that information, or at least buy enough time-before-the-Gordanians-react to put up more thorough defenses.

In this situation, I think those concerns make it pretty clear that 'just killing the Gordanians', here, now, will neither protect Tamaran as a whole nor protect the innocents (Gordanian and Tamaranean) who would be caught in the figurative blast radius (probably dead to vaccuum exposure, really.)

In general, the question is a little bit harder in some ways, a little bit easier in others. If the Gordanians can be cleanly sorted out - both from their own innocents, based on degrees of participation and guilt, and from the Tamaranean slaves-slash-hostages - then the question more or less falls to "Should the guilty be punished with death, or is there something more appropriate to be done." If Paul has that kind of control over the situation, then they can be handed over to Tamaran to be executed with the understanding that this is war not murder (not a big change, but slightly better) or more likely, sent into exile somewhere they can't cause trouble. There is also the option to have them ransomed or sold to other Gordanians or another faction in exchange for resources which can be used to aid Tamaran instead of used for whatever that faction would have done with it, but Paul would probably prefer not to do that - even if it makes utilitarian sense in a vaccuum it would encourage slavery in Vega which is going to be difficult enough to halt as it is, creating unpleasant negative external-factor utility.

In-between, with neither no-sorting nor perfect-sorting, there may be opportunities where other answers make sense - killing a large number of Gordanians, or even an entire ship innocents (Gordanian and Tamaranean hostages included) in order to prevent a kinetic drop on a city, for example. But in general, killing them just isn't that helpful; cases like the Joker and Captain Nazi are severe outliers and cases like the battle in Shiruta have significant additional restrictions (time, in that case, since the soldiers were at that very moment killing innocents as fast as they could.)

There are times when killing is appropriate, but the Orange Rings are so capable of focused, flexible power that they are very rare for Paul.
If he had a couple of guns instead of the rings, things would be different. But he's got TWO POWER RINGS, so really killing people is generally just lazy, not prudent, moral, or ethical.
 
You know, the "emotional spectrum" seems more like the "motivational spectrum" in that they align with reason for doing stuff. Because you're pissed off, because you want more, because you're afraid, etc etc.
The exact Maltusian words are probably something that doesn't translate to most languages.
 
You know, the "emotional spectrum" seems more like the "motivational spectrum" in that they align with reason for doing stuff. Because you're pissed off, because you want more, because you're afraid, etc etc.
The exact Maltusian words are probably something that doesn't translate to most languages.
Possibly. Certainly the Blue Light of Hope, at least, has apparently had other names - the wiki informs me that in a previous universe it was known as the Blue Light of Faith.
Perhaps someday it will become the Blue Light of Exploration, or the Blue Light of Discovery - it seems to be about crossing into the unknown and finding it good.
(Similarly, the Green Light might be the Green Light of Dogma, or the Green Light of Determination, or the Green Light of Wholeness - standing firm as you are. I strongly suspect the conflict between those things is why Hope is, for some reason, such a contentious subject for Guardians and kind of distrusted even by the ones who support its use.)
 
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Tamanarama (part 9)
12th July
23:22 GMT


"…the market rate. Even taking into account 'rarity value'-" I make the air quotes gesture. "-I'm not prepared to pay a premium of more than five percent. Not for this many, and not for slaves who were born free."

"Look, if you need them broken-."

"I don't need them broken. I need them diligently performing their assigned tasks with an appreciation that such is their lot in life. If it was just me then I'd stick a brand on their foreheads and call it a day, but it isn't. The market in my region of space simply isn't the same as the Vega market. I can't just brutalise them into obedience and expect to get a decent return."

"We've got steroid injections we could give them to make them a bit more lively. Once they've gone to the final buyer-."

"Zaark! I'm selling for domestic usage. One or two per buyer, and they'll demand that a doctor check their purchases before they authorise the transfer of the funds! My name would be mud if I used short lived chemical tricks! Particularly if there were ongoing effects on their health."

"Sounds pretty fussy."

"That's where the money is. I suspect that half of them are basically going to end up as ornaments anyway."

His tail straightens, then vibrates slightly. Surprise. "People pay for that?"

"Sure. We certainly weren't going to use them as labourers. Automation is more effective for industrial purposes in most conditions."

"They hiring Gordanians? Because that doesn't sound like a bad place to retire! Hahahaha!"

"Hah! Ah." I lean forwards. "Was that a joke, or do you want me to start asking around?"

"Errrrr… Better not. Anyway." He jabs at the Gordanian friendly keyboard, figures moving across the display. "If we're using Rashashoon valuations, I'm happy to take the same values on mechanical or electronic components. Agreed?"

"Raw materials?"

"Minus ten percent. We've got an asteroid field here, and we're not doing any large scale heavy manufacturing. We can get most of what we need ourselves, and we can buy the rest from other parts of the clan."

"Fair enough. What do you want off that list?"

"Hm." He scrolls through a few pages. "If it were up to me, I'd go for high end technical parts. Not a lot of places can make the really good stuff, so there's usually a waiting list. And we're nowhere near powerful enough to muscle our way to the top."

I take a moment to check what he's pointing to. Huh. Perfectly engineered millennia guaranteed parts for systems only a little superior to what they already have. It would improve their capacities a bit, but mostly it would save them time and increase their reliability. And then there's the installation time… Even if I was planning on not destroying or capturing everything I give them, I wouldn't worry too much about them having it. Better still, the chaotic nature of Vega has inflated the prices. It wouldn't take me long to make enough equipment to equal the value we've agreed on for the slaves.

"That sounds jolly unfair. I don't have a problem-."

"Yeah, but Weezak would." He growls quietly. "Not like he's the one who has to arrange maintenance schedules for systems using parts that should have been time expired years ago."

"Oh. You have my sympathy, but… What does Weezak want?"

"Weapons mostly. Infantry and ship. Matter disrupter melee weapons and ship grade particle cannons most of all."

"Matter disrupter melee..? Really?"

"Trogaar likes them. Which means we like them."

"Oh… Kay…"

"Weezak was assigned here from the clan military. He doesn't really… Value the commercial side of things. They make our warriors better in melee, then they're what he wants."

"Is melee fighting a big part of-?"

"No. No, it isn't."

"I.. can.. supply them, if that's what you need." Unlike their earthly cousins the crumbler gauntlets, they don't do much to construct barriers. They won't present me with a problem. "And I can do particle cannons… But if you want anti-ship size… You do realise that you'd need to strip out most of your existing weapon systems in order to fit them? To say nothing of the time in dock. This place wasn't designed to work on Gordanian clan ships."

"And guess whose job it is to fix that?"

"Honestly, you might be better off just building a new ship. Or saving your currency units and buying one. If the peace treaty with the Spider Guild holds, Jarko and Amalak are going to be looking to offload their older models."

"Peace treaty? First I've heard of it."

Ring, transfer full text.

Compliance.

"
Basically, they agreed on territorial claims and the Spiders agreed to build ships for the victors. It should reduce hull prices a lot over the next few years."

"Hm." Zaark skim-reads the text, then moves to the appendix on the build queue. "You're right. I'll need to get this checked-."

"What, you think I faked an eighty page treaty off the cuff?"

"No, but you might have edited a thing or two. Whatever exactly happens, this is going to affect prices a lot." He sits back slightly. "Which means… Until I know exactly how this is going to work out, I can't possibly know what the best weapon acquisition strategy is."

I nod. "Quite true."

"The price will probably drop on… Low end particle cannons. If Amalak liquidates his stock. Which it looks like he's going to."

"If you say so."

"And in a situation of uncertainty… Investing in items known to hold their value is sensible, even if it turns out not to have been optimal."

"Sounds sensible to me. Do you think you can convince Weezak?"

"Weezak's not really an economics chief. I wave this treaty at him and he'll spend the next demi-year trying to work out the military implications. Which works for me, since he'll be out of my scales."

"Though you might want to throw him a bone. I mean, if you did upgrade your guns, you'd probably need improved power generation systems anyway. It would hardly hurt to swap over a few hardpoints."

"Yeah. Okay." His fingers flick with surprising dexterity as he adds items to the trade list. "How soon can you have… This together?"

I lean forwards, a faint smile on my lips. "How soon can you have my slaves ready for dispatch?"

"Depends on what you want us to do with the implants."

"Removed, if that can be done without completely traumatising them."

"No, the implants are pretty resilient." He absentmindedly scratches his neck scar with the claw of his right forefinger. "Should be about… Six neegath..? As long as I don't have to bust any heads together when my tail rot cases find out they're going to be scrubbing their own decks from now on."

I feel the ring work to keep my face naturally animated. "I'll have it ready by then."
 
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No. It's not about judging them, it's about determining whether or not they can become something else. You remember the 'passing on a lighter punch' comment? Slavery and implanted explosives are normal for Gordanians. That doesn't make it okay, it just means that a Gordanian who accepts it is of 'average' moral probity for his civilisation, rather than being the total monster a modern American would have to be to use those sort of techniques.

this implies that you think you have the time and/or the ability to break down their culture to basically scratch and then build it back up again into something worthwhile. Just how many generations are you planning on sticking around Vega?
 
I'm guessing the plan is to gut the ship with permission while all the hostages are removed, then gut the ship without permission and leave it drifting the void as a warning to others.
 
"Weapons mostly. Infantry and ship. Matter disrupter melee weapons and ship grade particle cannons most of all."

"Matter disrupter melee..? Really?"

"Trogaar likes them. Which means we like them."

"Oh… Kay…"

"Weezak was assigned here from the clan military. He doesn't really… Value the commercial side of things. They make our warriors better in melee, then they're what he wants."

"Is melee fighting a big part of-?"

"No. No, it isn't."

even going undercover as a slave trader he can't help but stop and stare at stupidity. Melee weapons, really.
 
this implies that you think you have the time and/or the ability to break down their culture to basically scratch and then build it back up again into something worthwhile. Just how many generations are you planning on sticking around Vega?
Once Larfleeze is gone the GLC will make then comply. OL is trying to monimise the chaos and bloodshed that will cause.
 
this implies that you think you have the time and/or the ability to break down their culture to basically scratch and then build it back up again into something worthwhile. Just how many generations are you planning on sticking around Vega?
My first thought is that he could make them an experiment in civilizational development, by destroying their entire civilization and visiting every 100 years to take notes.

But that would be wrong.

For a proper experiment he needs a larger sample size.
 
Now what's that in earth time?
TVTropes said:
In Plan 7 of 9 from Outer Space a hostile plant alien demands the human authorities hand over twenty gurqs of uranium (a gurq is equivalent to one Earth kilogram) and a hundred geeks of fertilizer (a geek is equivalent to the weight of one sci-fi fan) within one neegath (equivalent to one Earth hour minus 0.0095746338th of a microsecond). There are also neeps, each equivalent to one Hollywood minute: a circumstantially-variable duration of time.
 
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