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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Twelve)

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Not sure why Paul is freaking out about, a simple "No, I don't want to do that." would have been sufficient.

As for why she offered, IIRC branding makes the subject want please their master.
It's not a terrible leap of logic for her to assume that her 'new master' would enjoy having sex with her.
The fact that she may or may not have been a sex-slave before just reinforces that idea.

On the other hand, Paul has moral quarms and sensibilities. (Potentially too many of them, if you ask Jade) so there's no risk of that actually happening.
All he had to do was say "No thanks." and materialize up a pair of giant beds.

Now though, he has to worry about potential escape attempts, assassination, contacting her allies and generally dealing with an uncooperative and terrified prisoner.

There's an opportunity here to actually talk to her about the politics of the region and try to change her mind, but there's also quite a risk. Especially if he plans to sleep any time soon.

Also, keeping her trapped here and afraid is crueler than her being happily controlled until she's finally released.

I know, the above line is debatable, but i'm of the opinion that so long as the victim isn't actually fighting from the inside, mind-control doesn't actually hurt a person, in-and-of itself.
 
Geminii said:
Shouldn't be any physical problem doing so. Recreate a clone body based on previous records or close-enough guesses; reduce the construct to a bodiless mind running on an emulated brain with the same structure as the physical one; overlay the orange mind-structure on the clone brain until they're running in sync, have the emulation gradually fade out and let the clone brain take over the job of running the mind full-time.

Theoretically, of course, all that could be bypassed just by saying "Ring, hold construct [person] in stasis for a moment. Now replace all their construct parts with the equivalent in normal matter (plus any necessary arcane or non-normal-matter components)." And you're done.

The concepts of 'self' and 'individual' are central to human psychology, mostly because evolution favors beings which can tell whether a grasping appendage is 'theirs' or not, but that doesn't mean they actually apply from the perspective of physics. Even the concept of 'soul' in this fic (or the greater DC universe) doesn't necessarily imply individuality - for all we know, souls can be xeroxed indefinitely. Or perhaps it's related to the Graven problem, whereby duplicating a metaphysical structure sufficiently closely makes the duplicates effectively start experiencing quantum entanglement, up to the point where they are exact duplicates and (from the perspective of the universe) the actual same item.

Which is another perspective issue. As noted in the interesting Methods of Rationality fic (hpmor.com if you want to read it), the universe does not believe in macroscopic objects or items - it has particles and fields. Magic-users in that story cast spells or effects which often target real-world items, because that's how humans think and interact with the world, particularly when they haven't had a scientific education. One of the great breakthroughs which occurs during the story is the ability to cast a spell on part of an object by mentally getting past the human perception of the object as a single item.

So from the perspective of our universe, at least, there is no such thing as Life, or a mind, or a person, except as a macroscopic pattern of particles and fields, which can be replicated to infinity without any special effort involved. Physically, we could build a machine which popped out as many replicas of any person as you might care to want. Whether this applies in the DC/WtR universe is a tad murkier, given the existence of such things as souls, the Source, gods of various power levels and abilities (some of whom are linked to specific domains or concepts), white power rings, effective incarnations of concepts, and all sorts of other weirdness.
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Metaphysically, the normal arrangement is that you are a soul, you have a body. Of course, your body has a brain, and you use your brain to think, and people have kept on thinking after their soul was stolen, though usually not without terrible side-effects.
 
Mr Zoat said:
No, as he's not Human.

Yes, and you'll see some more exotic uses of the orange light in the future.
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Interesting. So it hinges upon human cells then? Wonder how that works out alchemically. Wait....Aquaman is half human right? So I suppose he could benefit if anyone thought of it....annnd he wasn't pissed at OL any longer. Although honestly? If Paul has done a great service to any one group, it has certainly been the Atlanteans.

Less a question about the story and more another thought that popped in my head. It occurs to me that the pagan gods have REALLY let a lot of great recruitment opportunities slip by. The biggest being the demon invasion of Captain Marvel's city.

Imagine the PR that could have been gained if when the First was rambling with John, only for the sky to split and one of Zeus' thunderbolts streaks down to plant into his head. Probably not Big Z's style though. Seems they are all rather lazy.

Odin though....now that's an interesting idea. Especially with him already making deals to gain further leverage against the giants. (All that stuff with the Nazi brothers.) Plus I would think the Norse gods would love a chance to throw down and embarrass Yahweh.

Though that also makes me wonder the...power levels so to speak of the gods. How would The Olympian and Norse gods stack up to both the SIlver city, the First and Sabaac's sponsors? Or Lucifer for that matter?

I'd say they'd be about equal, though honestly as the Pagan's are older you'd think they'd be stronger, but I find most fiction in the west tends to lean more heavily towards Judeo-Christian mythology. Like that terrible Supernatural show. Though it is unsurprising.
 
Maxx Crowley said:
Interesting. So it hinges upon human cells then? Wonder how that works out alchemically. Wait....Aquaman is half human right? So I suppose he could benefit if anyone thought of it....annnd he wasn't pissed at OL any longer. Although honestly? If Paul has done a great service to any one group, it has certainly been the Atlanteans.
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Zoat was being imprecise there, it has nothing to do with being human per se, it has to do with being Terran- Wolf and Talky Tawny are both danner enhanciles, and since they were furry quadrupeds I hardly think they qualify for humanity. :)

New Gods, being related conceptually to humanity (Apokalips and New Genesis being the 4th world, Earth being the 5th), can also benefit from alchemical enhancement, it's just far from permanent, but that's due to the regenerative abilities he gave them, not due to being aliens.
 
Maxx Crowley said:
I'd say they'd be about equal, though honestly as the Pagan's are older you'd think they'd be stronger, but I find most fiction in the west tends to lean more heavily towards Judeo-Christian mythology. Like that terrible Supernatural show. Though it is unsurprising.
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My interpretation of this question (as a rule of thumb for any supernatural power play) is that Channeling Capacity and Intent are slightly more important than power.

Gods will have the same amount of power almost all of their existence, but their ability to bring it onto the physical plane is limited by the belief of humans and how thematically appropriate it is for them to manifest their power one way or another.

Zeus could throw around a thunderstorm easily, while Odin would do a blizzard, but vice-versa would be very difficult for them. The demons and the First could show up in person in Fawcett A) because there are a lot of christians in America and B) because people had done a lot of rituals that were like the quick-and-dirty versions of consecrating the area to those demons.

Even though the Olympians aren't the big power in Greece, according to the way I think about these things by default, Zeus could have done exactly that if, instead of Fawcett, Sabbac tried to bring his patrons out in Greece or anywhere around the Mediterranean.

But gods have a hard time manifesting power unless there's a tie to let them. Dr. Sandsmark is probably Ancient Greek studious enough to go to Hades when she dies, and she met Zeus on a cruise in Greek waters. Zeus couldn't have manifested like that (according to my theory of it) in Jamaica to sleep with a woman who'd never heard of the Olympians, no matter how beautiful Zeus thought she was. Eris could show up where ever Paul was, but she couldn't manifest and walk around New York on her own to recruit worshippers and do miracles unless there were ties (other Amazon visitors, WW, some big museum display of Greek artifacts) to let her.

So Zeus would have more raw power in total, but unless Sabbac showed up with his patrons on Greek Territory, or they were fighting a bunch of Helenists who prayed to Olympus for aid, Zeus and the other Olympians wouldn't be able to use enough of their power to beat the demons.

According to my understanding of this subject, which is fictitious and may be wrong.
 
NemoMarx said:
Also one of the standard compulsions made her want to sleep with him? Even assuming she meant that platonically that seems odd.
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Well, by default, the wants of the branded are the wants of the master.

Yog said:
Paul doesn't have subconscious desires. That's what enlightenment means in this verse. He's constantly perfectly aware of all his desires
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Which is kind of awesome. To most people, their subconscious is a big black box.
 
Maxx Crowley said:
Imagine the PR that could have been gained if when the First was rambling with John, only for the sky to split and one of Zeus' thunderbolts streaks down to plant into his head. Probably not Big Z's style though. Seems they are all rather lazy.
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That sounds like a bad idea all around.

My take on it: Yahweh is quite a bit stronger than the other pantheons by virtue of "everything" being his portfolio, while the other gods have divided the power up among them. He's also known to be a VERY sore loser. The other gods would know better than to get involved.

stsword said:
Talky Tawny
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MICHAEL Tawny, if you please.

Senevri said:
Which is kind of awesome. To most people, their subconscious is a big black box.
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That's why it's called "enlightenment." :p
 
iamnuff said:
Not sure why Paul is freaking out about, a simple "No, I don't want to do that." would have been sufficient.

As for why she offered, IIRC branding makes the subject want please their master.
It's not a terrible leap of logic for her to assume that her 'new master' would enjoy having sex with her.
The fact that she may or may not have been a sex-slave before just reinforces that idea.

On the other hand, Paul has moral quarms and sensibilities. (Potentially too many of them, if you ask Jade) so there's no risk of that actually happening.
All he had to do was say "No thanks." and materialize up a pair of giant beds.
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Paul isn't a perfectly rational being that functions like an unfeeling machine. Being seen as rapey was so repugnant to him that way back when his subconscious desires were still subconscious, it caused him to shut down his testosterone production to limit his libidinousness. The implication that he'd inadvertently turned someone into a bed warmer was enough to hit his "nope" button.
 
Coda said:
My take on it: Yahweh is quite a bit stronger than the other pantheons by virtue of "everything" being his portfolio, while the other gods have divided the power up among them. He's also known to be a VERY sore loser. The other gods would know better than to get involved.
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If you're talking about in this fic, Zoat has indicated that there is no Yahweh, just the Source that some people anthropomorphized.

If you're talking about in the DC franchise itself, well it's not like the subject of God was the one exception to DC writers caring about continuity.

I believe he's been portrayed as another creation of the Godwave like other deities, just more popular.

He's also been portrayed as being a part of everyone and everything.

Wally the boy god in Supergirl claimed to be every god, kind of smushed together.

In a run of Dr Fate, God was an ocean, each individual soul a drop in that ocean, constant but ever changing as souls live, die, go to the various afterlives, and are then reborn.
 
stsword said:
If you're talking about in this fic, Zoat has indicated that there is no Yahweh, just the Source that some people anthropomorphized.
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Um... I... don't remember that being said at all, and I seem to remember quite the opposite being true. What I remember is the statement that the Abrahamic deity is NOT a universal power.

Regardless, I'm talking about the deity that rules the Silver City, whoever that is.
 
Coda said:
That sounds like a bad idea all around.

My take on it: Yahweh is quite a bit stronger than the other pantheons by virtue of "everything" being his portfolio, while the other gods have divided the power up among them. He's also known to be a VERY sore loser. The other gods would know better than to get involved.
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I suppose it would depend on whether or not it's pop culture Yahweh, or Biblical Yahweh. His feats of power in the bible really aren't that impressive all told. Mostly on par with other myths of that time.

Still, unless Zoat was using the rules off "More prayer equal more power" (and I'm pretty sure he said he wasn't?) then I don't see why Yahweh would be more powerful. What with him having the whole Christian, Catholic, Hebrew and Muslim populations devoted to him. Also, as it stands, he's one of the lazier deities floating around in this fic.

That said, the story is using Hellblazer apparently and...well I have no knowledge of that. Never even really heard of Constantine until that movie, minus a cameo about birth control in a death comic I read in the mid nineties I think.

Of course we already know who the TRUE God above is. Jack Kirby.
 
Coda said:
Um... I... don't remember that being said at all, and I seem to remember quite the opposite being true. What I remember is the statement that the Abrahamic deity is NOT a universal power.

Regardless, I'm talking about the deity that rules the Silver City, whoever that is.
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Mr Zoat said:
Oh, that thing, yes. Though I should point out that when the First reappeared, he assumed that the result was decided by God. He didn't actually have a face-to-face meeting first. Also, in this story the Source is the Abrahamic deity. Abraham just got a few details wrong and used creative advertising.
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So the Abrahamic God is people getting things wrong about the Source.

Unless Zoat changed his mind.

Maxx Crowley said:
I suppose it would depend on whether or not it's pop culture Yahweh, or Biblical Yahweh. His feats of power in the bible really aren't that impressive all told. Mostly on par with other myths of that time.

Still, unless Zoat was using the rules off "More prayer equal more power" (and I'm pretty sure he said he wasn't?) then I don't see why Yahweh would be more powerful. What with him having the whole Christian, Catholic, Hebrew and Muslim populations devoted to him. Also, as it stands, he's one of the lazier deities floating around in this fic.
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Zoat isn't, whether worshipped by billions or nobody, it's all the same here.

The point the other person was making was about domain versatility. A God of magic is strongest with magic, etc, etc. So when your domain is "life, the universe, and everything," then everything is in your domain.
 
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Mr Zoat said:
"One moment." I take two spell eaters out of my armour's pouches. One goes over Felicity's head-

"Thank you! I think it's beautiful."

-and I float the other over to the Queen, who pauses in her eating to look at it with her smaller eyes. "Explain."

"It weakens and consumes spells. My home world has a lot of magic users." She slips the thong over her upper right limb, tying it around her arm-mounted computer. "Only on loan, though. I'll want it back once we're done."

"I understand." Some more bug goes down her gullet.
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Nice to see that a high-tech alien leader believes in Magic enough that she takes Paul's words at face-value!

Have the Spider Guild experienced any BIG supernatural occurrences in the past, dealing with magi from the Sorcerers' World of Zerox, for example?

Should be easy enough to get there! After all, as The Tour Guide to The Outer Worlds says:
Zerox, The Sorcerers' World: For permission to visit, simply make the attempt. If unable to debark your starship, consider yourself officially unwelcome.
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If Paul can find a way to get in contact with them, I'm sure Prince Endor, (possibly still present ruler of Zerox), would be more than happy to meet with a friend, er, ally of Superman!

But naturally, as they're all a magocratic society, I imagine Paul will have to perform some great task of significant and metaphysical import for Zerox if he wants to get on their good side!

Then again, although he's personally cloaked by ward and spell, Paul's actions may have likely reached their ears of him having a hand in the deaths of a Lord of Chaos and a Lord of Order!

Think that could considered a great feat enough to gain their attention?

Part of me hopes so, but another part me says such attention might be more of caution and worry, rather than simply benign interest...
 
Maxx Crowley said:
Interesting. So it hinges upon human cells then? Wonder how that works out alchemically. Wait....Aquaman is half human right? So I suppose he could benefit if anyone thought of it....annnd he wasn't pissed at OL any longer.
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The problem is alchemical, not human cells; Earth life has a specific metaphysical structure, and that's what the alchemy works with. He's not sure how it would interact with existing superhuman powers however, which is why he wouldn't use it on Aquaman. Especially since Atlanteans are magically modified beings already.

It might be worth experimenting with in the future though. IIRC the Atlanteans still know at least some of the magics used to modify air breathers into water breathers, and could therefore probably create experimental animals to test the issue on.
 
Monshroud said:
Nice to see that a high-tech alien leader believes in Magic enough that she takes Paul's words at face-value!

Have the Spider Guild experienced any BIG supernatural occurrences in the past, dealing with magi from the Sorcerers' World of Zerox, for example?
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One of the planets in the Vega system (Euphorix) apparently has a system of magic, as Kalista, a member of the Omega Men is a known sorceress (the mention of whom is what caused Paul to pull out the Spelleaters)

As for those blaming Paul for Felicity's offer of sex, that probably a cultural assumption on her part. Slavery (including sex slaves) is common practice in the Vega system. Paul is her Master. Male Master plus female Slave suggests a strong possibility for sex. So she offered, just in case it would please him.
 
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Vega, Baby (part 14)
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    • 11th July
    10:24 GMT

    Remaining in my meditation pose, I slowly open my eyes. "Did you get any sleep at all?"

    Behind me -but in full view of one of my Praexis Demons- Felicity cringes and pulls her blanket more closely around her.

    "Felicity, that's unnecessary."

    She remains completely still, eyes locked on me. "What will you do with me?"

    "I'll keep you with me until the negotiations are concluded. Then… Take you to my next destination and remove the brand."

    She shuffles closer, moving around my left side. "You'll let me go?"

    "Yes."

    "Why?"

    "I don't want you to die. I've identified you as one of the Omega Men in public. The only reason why the Citadelians haven't demanded that I hand you over is that they think I've permanently enslaved you, and the only reason that the pirates haven't killed you is that they think I will."

    "Why.. haven't you? You already made me tell you everything I know."

    She's in front of me now, and shrinks back slightly as I open my eyes to look at her. "Killing someone is not so trivial a thing that I would do it over a.. clumsy, ill-considered assassination attempt. Even if that is the way things usually work around here. Your life has inherent value."

    She stares, perhaps trying to work out how serious I am. Or perhaps what I'm on. "If you.. believe that, why are you trying to protect the Spider Queen?"

    "Because I don't value anarchy for its own sake. And I will want a slightly better plan than blind optimism for something to replace the Citadel before I am prepared to compass the death of a billion people to serve as a distraction." Her muzzle tenses. "Did it not occur to you that if the pirate groups resumed fighting here that the population of the planet would suffer right along with them? If a ship-mounted weapon can burn through another ship's armour it can certainly do the same to a city. Or they might deliberately target a city which contained a significant number of their enemies, or their enemies' business partners." I shake my head. "I realise that it can be.. satisfying to kill the 'bad people', but that doesn't mean that anything good will come of it."

    She shuffles slightly, her eyes dipping. "Where will you leave me?"

    "At the moment, my next stop is Tamaran."

    "You know about Tamaran?"

    "It's the main reason why I came to Vega. To see if I could do something about it."

    "You.. know what the Citadel did to Tamaran, and you still-?"

    "Destroying the Citadel would not bring the Tamaranian dead back." I raise my right hand, generating a construct-globe showing Tamaran. Local data networks are gratifyingly open to power ring intrusion, and I've been using that fact to update myself. "It would not restore their fleet or their industry."

    "The Gordanians destroyed their capital city! They abduct and steal-!"

    "Yes. I know." In point of fact they didn't destroy Tamarus. They fired on it from orbit and killed thousands of people, but the city is spread over a much larger area and they didn't target the centre. But that's not really the point. The local Gordanians don't have the numbers or the wits to conquer Tamaran outright, so they limit themselves to brutalising and extorting the place. I feel my lips curling as the disgust flows through me. "And I'm probably going to have to do something about them. But when I do, I will have a plan in place as to how to deal with the fallout."

    She crouches, sitting back on her haunches. "You mean that. You don't doubt for a moment that you can destroy them."

    "Based on what I've seen so far, no, I don't doubt it."

    "You could work with us!" I wince inwardly. "If you-."

    "Persuade Primus to come up with a workable plan, and I will give it due consideration." Because I imagine that he's been thinking about it for some time and while he knows far more about the whole situation than I do he might have a slight bias that I'm going to need to work around.

    "His plans are-."

    Boooorp. Boooorp. Booor-.

    The Queen is awake and pressing the 'accept' button on the terminal before I can turn around. "I hear you."

    "The meeting will begin in seventeen minutes. Be there."

    "I will-". The panel deactivates. The Queen blinks once and then extends her legs, raising her abdomen from the mattress. "Orange Lantern, I will need your assistance if I am to be ready."

    I rise to my feet, turning as I do so and walking toward her. "Getting your armour on shouldn't take anything like that long." I tag the first part with a filament and lift it-.

    "There is something else you must do first. There is a gel amongst my belongings that should be applied to my carapace before the armour is put on."

    Huh. I'd thought that was some sort of Spider-food. I put the armour down and use the ring to bring a tub of the stuff over to me. "Just apply an even layer all over?"

    "It is most important that it covers my joints. The motor systems in the armour supersede my natural hydraulics, and that can lead to my joints becoming painful."

    "Not a problem." I float up over the lip of the mattress and use a construct to pull the lip of the tub. Doesn't really.. smell of anything very much. Two more constructs grab blobs of the stuff and-.

    "I would appreciate it if you could apply it by hand. I am… Not comfortable with your glowing objects."

    "That… Might push us for time." I land on the mattress just behind her, pulling a blob over to me. I send my arm armour and robes into subspace before putting my hands into it. Hah, if my massage teacher back in Happy Harbour could see me now.

    "As long as my legs are covered, it should not prove too unpleasant."

    Hm. Alright. No sense in dillydallying. I put my hands on her carapace where her rear left leg joins the-.

    There appears to be a.. hole, just behind the second leg to the rear.

    "Um. What's.. that..?"

    The Queen rotates her head to see what I'm looking at. "One of my spiracles. Those will also require attention. Carefully ensure that the near-interior is lubricated so that my armour's breathing systems can form an interface."

    Oh, breathing hole. For a moment there I thought… Well, she is naked. She probably has a reproductive opening somewhere around here, but wherever it is, it's reasonably well concealed by her carapace. I offered to give her a medical scan on the way down, but she turned it down. Obviously that wouldn't stop me, but I think it would be a good idea to kick the habit of scanning everyone prior to my meeting with the Controllers. It would be a bit of a faux pas to scan them, after all.

    I work my way down the rear left leg, then start on the second. "I couldn't help but notice that you're physically quite dissimilar to most Spider Guild members."

    "My Nest specialises in biological modification. I will not provide further information on this subject."

    "Alright." The Spider Guild doesn't have any particular prohibition on any area of research, but advanced biology isn't usually their thing. Second leg done, and I move onto the third. The spiracle looks slightly inflamed… Best be extra careful with it.

    "Ah!"

    "Sorry! I'll be more gentle. Just hold still."

    "A-ah!"
     
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