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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Twelve)

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Ugolino said:
Honestly, OL actively did try and conceal it from them...and now he's blackmailing them.

I mean, he's less wrong but he's made mistakes and is still making them.
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You are incorrect!

He's not blackmailing. He's pointing out some harsh truths. If they want to arrest him, they need to charge him for a crime. Since he was an officer of the law making an arrest, he's completely in the clear legally. If they try to get him prosecuted anyway, he'd win and it'd be egg on the Justice League's face. They'd rather lie than jump through a bunch of hoops and hurt themselves just to arrest him.

Paul isn't blackmailing the Justice League. He's fine with them revealing or not revealing their crimes as they choose. In fact, he went through substantial effort to keep their complicity hidden and has no plans to reveal any of this unless compelled to under oath in court!

Heck, if anyone's blackmailing the Justice League at this point, it's themselves.
 
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Red Bovine said:
Hal's issue seems to be the fact that he didn't like the idea of Paul pretty much admitting to premadated murder and if he didn't and even wound up killing him he likely would have had less issue with it. Important thing to remember is that some heroes really do believe that heroes shouldn't kill people.
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Thats... not what premeditated murder is. At all. That is planning for the worse case scenario. No police officer that pulls a gun with the intention to fire after the person they pulled refuses to surrender is a murderer for having a fallback if words and diplomacy fail.

I believe there are things worse than death. And if refusal to kill, or in this case to condone others killing, results in a fate worse than death, then you really should not be trying to claim the moral high ground.

Red Bovine said:
getting a guy who happened to be one of earths best heroes fired just because he disagreed with him is just amazingly and stunningly petty
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This is not about pettiness, this is about breaking them out of their delusions that they acted correctly here, and that this is not Paul going off the deep end or over reacting. Which having someone with authority hear the details and levy punishment against the a member of the Justice League just might accomplish. I am one of the people who believed condoning Nabu was wrong, even if some of his other actions were useful. I try not to be a hypocrite. I believe with what the League knew about the situation, they became complicit in his crime when they covered it up and voted him onto the league 'for real'. Thus, I believe condoning their actions because of their utility is also wrong. They need to answer for what they did. This is not about punishment as much as making sure something similar won't happen again going forward.

But If they cannot even admit, behind closed doors, that they did wrong here, then history is set to repeat itself. The League took the law into their own hands in a manner it was not authorized to do when they legitimized Nabu taking Zatanna hostage and the events that followed from it. And I would not want to trade the security of the Justice League keeping me safe at the cost of my freedom by allowing a oligarchy of self appointed heroes to secretly determine what is good and just and right, and what is not, by ignoring the Law of the Land.

Mr Zoat said:
Excellent! It's suppose to.
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I hate you so much right now. Just FYI.
 
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I think the heart of the matter is Paul's statement that he wasn't willing to tolerate the situation further, and when he stated that Fate/Nabu wasn't a person first, and only then went with the killing a police officer while resisting arrest thing. That really didn't come across as the correct order to state those things.

I can easily see that in a Justice Lord context. And the League are probably predisposed to seeing that in a slippery slope mentality; a logical fallacy that tends to shut down thought.
 
surarrin said:
The frustrating thing with this set of scenes—though I understand why it is as it is—is that Paul has to defend his actions, while none of the Justice League even attempt to rationalize theirs. It's obviously Paul's POV and this is basically a debriefing on the situation... but it really comes across as the Justice League (minus several characters who are having visible emotional creations to the realization of what they've allowed) believing that they did the 'right' thing in allowing Fate to hold Gio's body. I really thought that we were going to have a case of Paul railing on them for thinking that they could pick and choose what laws they were willing to enforce re: those they've allowed on the Justice League.
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This was an inquiry into the murder of a Justice League member by a Justice League affiliate. The inquiry has to take place, regardless of who was in the right or in the wrong. Information was brought in, the accused/witness has left, and now they are going to discuss it. Of course he hs to defend himself.
 
,Batman has been exposed to Doctor Crane's fear gas on several occasions and hasn't killed anyone as a result. That particular lethal response was all Nabu."
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Is anyone else uncomfortable with "Batman" being the standard by which we judge people? Even for superheroes, I feel its about equivalent to sainthood - that is, it's an example to aspire to and be inspired by, but nobody should be upset if you fall short of it.
 
Red Bovine said:
Oh for fucks sake, getting a guy who happened to be one of earths best heroes fired just because he disagreed with him is just amazingly and stunningly petty
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And possibly entirely merited. Regardless of Jordan's successes as a hero, if he was fired then the ring would simply find the best replacement candidate. One who had not aided, abetted, and willingly worked alongside a slaver as a colleague, and attempted to defend that entity's actions. An interesting question might be whether Gardner and Stewart would be fired/suspended as well, even if only temporarily pending a Guardian investigation, resulting in three new stand-in Lanterns needing to be recruited.

From the perspective of someone who didn't know the Lanterns personally, this might be seen as less petty and more actually enforcing the rules they were recruited under. I'm not sure how much leeway regular Lanterns get from the Guardians on such matters. And there are seven billion replacements to choose from and a fairly comprehensive assessment process; it's not likely that a ring would pick a replacement who was bad at being a hero (or at least a galactic cop).

I'd like to hear how Gardner's channeling of Ion factored in, though.
 
Mr Zoat said:
"Don't interrupt. You're already-."
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Already what, Batman? Already ... in enough trouble?

.... for?

Mr Zoat said:
Jordan's had enough. "Taking criminals to trial is kind of what we do around here, Orange Lantern. From where I'm sitting-"
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Keep up Jordan, he literally JUST explained, quite clearly, why the Zatara Rescue mission was not a crime under British law. He was, in fact, acting as a legally appointed representative of the Crown, enforcing the law. The cops gave him a laminated card and everything.


Several members of the League seem sort of ... confused ... about what's happening here. They seem to think they're sitting in judgement or something.

No guys, this is a debriefing, where OL is explaining the situation and pointing out how badly you fucked up.
 
Breadnaugt said:
Keep up Jordan, he literally JUST explained, quite clearly, why the Zatara Rescue mission was not a crime under British law. He was, in fact, acting as a legally appointed representative of the Crown, enforcing the law. The cops gave him a laminated card and everything.


Several members of the League seem sort of ... confused ... about what's happening here. They seem to think they're sitting in judgement or something.

No guys, this is a debriefing, where OL is explaining the situation and pointing out how badly you fucked up.
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RichardWhereat said:
No, it's an inquiry. Something that has to happen so that the facts can be set out and understood. Keep up Breadnaugt.
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Which makes the whole thing even more of a confusing thing, because Paul turned down the invitation to the league literally hours before he dealt with Nabu, which means they don't actually have any oversite on him anymore at all.
 
Now you need to do a group interlude of the justice league members talking about what happened. Then an interlude for superman talking to Lois or his mom or both. One for Batman talking to Alfred and robin. One for wonder woman talking to her mom or someone. One for green arrow talking to black canary. And so on and so forth so we get the group and reactions and then the more individual reaction with them going through a deeper review of the situation with those they trust most.
 
I believe that the crux of Jordan's complaint isn't that the actions taken were illegal, but rather the Paul waited until the last moment to create legal cover by which to act.

Because if he hadn't done that and in the preceding months leading up to his confrontation with Nabu, and if Nabu had been recognized as a person then this would in fact count as premeditated murder.

In the end I think the biggest problem between most of the Leaguers and Paul is a belief that lethal force should never be a response, and Paul's feelings that Lethal force is just one of a myriad of his responses.
 
RichardWhereat said:
No, it's an inquiry.
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That's debatable. OL was acting as a legally appointed officer of the law, that was forced to kill a criminal while resolving a hostage situation. The League doesn't have any oversight authority or legal ground here. At all.

OL is simply informing them of the situation, then going on his way. Nothing more, nothing less.

Yet several members of the League seem to have completely misunderstood the situation. Jordan for example, clearly thinks they're sitting in judgement here. Like he thinks arresting/punishing/disciplining OL is something that's actually on the table.
 
RowenCloude said:
Now you need to do a group interlude of the justice league members talking about what happened. Then an interlude for superman talking to Lois or his mom or both. One for Batman talking to Alfred and robin. One for wonder woman talking to her mom or someone. One for green arrow talking to black canary. And so on and so forth so we get the group and reactions and then the more individual reaction with them going through a deeper review of the situation with those they trust most.
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Superman and Mom: Clark, sometimes in life we make mistakes. When that happens, look at what happens - but keep moving forwards, and try to do better.
Superman and Lois: Clark, I know you. I know you're a good guy. When bad things happen, you're there to help... and when you do bad things, you fix them as best as you can. I know you'll do the right thing.
Batman is too much an unknown. Alfred will be there by his side, though, right or wrong - if right, to be kept right. If wrong, to be set right.
I kind of want to see Diana praying to Athena. Goddess of cleverness, goddess of wisdom, goddess of entangling the complicated things and plotting a course that joins together virtue and success, honor and victory. We know that Athena is Diana's patron, after all, and right now I think Diana would deeply appreciate some wisdom without having to face her Mother yet.
Also possible: Diana and Alan.

I think we will soon see Paul and Alan, though...
(Maybe Diana shows up while Paul and Alan are speaking, and awkwardly offers her own apologies? She can't... wrap her head around what he did. Not yet. But... he was pushed to it. By Nabu, in part. By the League, in part. By her, in part. She doesn't know what to do next, not yet... but she, personally, cannot fault him, either. Not any more than she faults herself, at least.)
 
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Blazinghand said:
You are incorrect!

He's not blackmailing. He's pointing out some harsh truths. If they want to arrest him, they need to charge him for a crime. Since he was an officer of the law making an arrest, he's completely in the clear legally. If they try to get him prosecuted anyway, he'd win and it'd be egg on the Justice League's face. They'd rather lie than jump through a bunch of hoops and hurt themselves just to arrest him.

Paul isn't blackmailing the Justice League. He's fine with them revealing or not revealing their crimes as they choose. In fact, he went through substantial effort to keep their complicity hidden and has no plans to reveal any of this unless compelled to under oath in court!

Heck, if anyone's blackmailing the Justice League at this point, it's themselves.
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There's an implicit threat, technicalities aside. Rules lawyering aside, its clear,what he means there.
 
Breadnaugt said:
That's debatable. OL was acting as a legally appointed officer of the law, that was forced to kill a criminal while resolving a hostage situation. The League doesn't have any oversight authority or legal ground here. At all.

OL is simply informing them of the situation, then going on his way. Nothing more, nothing less.

Yet several members of the League seem to have completely misunderstood the situation. Jordan for example, clearly thinks they're sitting in judgement here. Like he thinks arresting/punishing/disciplining OL is something that's actually on the table.
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Police Officers are also legally appointed officers of the law when they're forced to kill criminals while resolving a hostage situation. Even they face inquiries on their use of deadly force. It doesn't mean it's a criminal proceeding, it's often just ticking the boxes. Here, they're not entirely certain what the fuck happened.
 
Ugolino said:
There's an implicit threat, technicalities aside. Rules lawyering aside, its clear,what he means there.
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While Paul phrases it like a threat, the truth coming out is a logical consequence of the suggested course of action, not a consequence Paul is appending. Paul is only at fault for the presentation.

Artemisnemo said:
Because if he hadn't done that and in the preceding months leading up to his confrontation with Nabu, and if Nabu had been recognized as a person then this would in fact count as premeditated murder.
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The confrontation was pretty obviously in the defence of another. Zatarra was being imprisoned on an on-going basis rather than immediately threatened, however it was relatively reasonable to conclude that violent personal confrontation was the only way to defend him from that sort of abuse. (The general assumption is that this would be the police's job, but as they default that job to the Justice League... )

You could reasonably say that the decision to actually kill Nabu was during the confrontation and the motive was revenge, but that would rule out pre-meditation.
 
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RichardWhereat said:
This was an inquiry into the murder of a Justice League member by a Justice League affiliate. The inquiry has to take place, regardless of who was in the right or in the wrong. Information was brought in, the accused/witness has left, and now they are going to discuss it. Of course he is to defend himself.
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Actually, the SI turning up was a surprise. This was originally going to be a briefing pending an investigation by Batman into exactly what happened. The SI chose to make it more of a confrontation.
Geminii said:
And possibly entirely merited. Regardless of Jordan's successes as a hero, if he was fired then the ring would simply find the best replacement candidate. One who had not aided, abetted, and willingly worked alongside a slaver as a colleague, and attempted to defend that entity's actions. An interesting question might be whether Gardner and Stewart would be fired/suspended as well, even if only temporarily pending a Guardian investigation, resulting in three new stand-in Lanterns needing to be recruited.
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Two new stand-ins. Two per Sector. They were never expecting Guy to recover, but since he hadn't actually done anything to get fired he stayed active.
From the perspective of someone who didn't know the Lanterns personally, this might be seen as less petty and more actually enforcing the rules they were recruited under. I'm not sure how much leeway regular Lanterns get from the Guardians on such matters. And there are seven billion replacements to choose from and a fairly comprehensive assessment process; it's not likely that a ring would pick a replacement who was bad at being a hero (or at least a galactic cop).
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The rings do sometimes make poor choices, though those usually either reject it, wash out during basic training or die pretty quickly.
RowenCloude said:
Now you need to do a group interlude of the justice league members talking about what happened. Then an interlude for superman talking to Lois or his mom or both. One for Batman talking to Alfred and robin. One for wonder woman talking to her mom or someone. One for green arrow talking to black canary. And so on and so forth so we get the group and reactions and then the more individual reaction with them going through a deeper review of the situation with those they trust most.
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No, I'm keeping that as a surprise until the SI gets back. But you can.
Ugolino said:
There's an implicit threat, technicalities aside. Rules lawyering aside, its clear,what he means there.
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The difference is that a blackmailer wants their victim to give in to their demands in order to keep them quiet. The SI would actually be a good deal happier -despite the difficulties it would create for him in the short term- if the League came clean.
 
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