Well, that's rather concerning. Seems like a precursor to something along the lines of "Fate was preventing <bad shit> from happening, and now we're all doomed! DOOMED!"
With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Twelve)
- Thread starter Mr Zoat
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To put it another way:
I'm not a lawyer, but as I understand it...
For us colonials, at least, you have a right to life, but not to killing threats to your life.
In some cases, it is considered non-criminal to use even lethal force in defense of your life. Some. And in all such cases it is preferred that you used something else that would still have solved the problem.
That doesn't make it a right, or at all universal - it's just something that the law says is okay sometimes. It's a privilege.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
"Don't worry! John Constantine is on the case!"
Zatara: [INTERNAL SCREAMING]
Silverias
Seeing is Believing
- Location
- Squiddy Places
No. If you shoot a cop trying to arrest you, you're a murderer. If you shoot a cop who is going to shoot you (For a legal reason), you're a murderer.
...10 seconds later
Zatara: Orange Lantern come closer *Punches Paul in face*
true enough, I respect our police, emt's and the firefighters in this great nation.
But wether your a murderer or not doesnt matter, you dont hesitate on legalities if someone is gonna shoot at you, you fight or flee or die and no one should choose option number three.
Last resort? To me, the most interesting revelation from the fight was that (a) Zatara could have communicated with his daughter at any point (assuming you take that at face value, which I do), and (b) Paul apparently never even tried to get Wonder Woman or anyone else to put pressure on Nabu to allow communication with Zatara.
Let's not pretend that Paul's fig leaf about arresting Nabu was serious. Nabu's best response actually would have been to just call Paul's bluff, and offer to go with him to the nearest police station, whereupon I'm rather certain that the response from the London police would be that they didn't want anything to do with this.
Paul never honestly tried to get the authorities on his side and have Nabu arrested, nor the lawful path of simply filing a lawsuit against him. This was always going to be about violence and force.
I'm fairly dubious about Siskin being a legitimate agent of the police here. Were the legalities to matter, I would rather expect that if the City of London were asked whether Paul and his cohort were actually acting as official agents of the London police, the official response would be "Fuck no!"
In any event, at the point your plan is to mind-rape someone with fear, any reflexive response you provoke will almost certainly be lacking the necessary mental state for a crime to be committed.
And, if you're going to pretend that Paul's actions were simply legitimate law enforcement (and that a magical entity is a person), the obvious next question would be at what point Nabu was actually incapacitated and should have been turned over to the London police, as opposed to whatever is left of him being given to John Constantine.
Under U.S./British common law, you had the right to use deadly force to resist an unlawful arrest, downgrading any death to (at most) manslaughter, if you meet the standard for that. Most states have eliminated that right by statute; no idea what the current British law is.
So what you're saying is that Paul resorted to violence rather than taking a constructive approach? Acting as a ...righteous face puncher, if you will?
Stormbringer117
Soulless
- Location
- Australia
Ha. Well done.
RichardWhereat
Feanor did nothing wrong.
- Location
- Australia
Here we have to distinguish between natural rights and legal rights. I'd say that all people have the natural right to defend themselves if they believe they're about to be killed, but legally it's obviously not the case, since laws are simply what have been legislated.
I think Zatara deserves external screaming for that one.
Much as I disdain Nabu's efforts (Really? It was so important that nobody else can do it, but you didn't have to do it for fifty years and can do press conferences still?) and like John (Seriously, for all that his stuff often ends in minor/major tragedies getting spread around, he often wins when almost anyone else would have lost and even worse things would have come through. It's just that it's really hard to see all the comparative good he does, when the absolute good is... low. I mean, how many times would OL be dead if not for John's scrying wards, but John gets no credit for them except from OL?)
...
Well. If Nabu actually did serve a unique purpose - rather than, as he seems to have been doing for everyone else, talking about how unique and important he is but not actually backing it up - I am pretty sure that John is... not a replacement.
Not least because it'll take John some time to sort himself out and be available again.
---
As regards Paul not going to Wonder Woman: She declared her support for Nabu in public, and didn't contact Zatanna, the daughter of Giovanni Zatara, to inform her that there was private negotiation or pressure going on.
Paul quite reasonably assumed that if the League were going to be on top of this, they would probably inform Zatanna at least a little.
So Paul went to enormous amounts of trouble to construct an alternative which gave Nabu more power and security without hurting anyone at all... And Nabu rejected it twice because his job, as he sees it, is to destroy Chaos even if it harms the world, let alone ignoring ways to do better.
And even on that point he's still a hypocrite, because he adopted the many-small-spells development, invented by the same person as the golem-body.
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- Location
- a nice place
could you be a little clearer. do you mean to say that it is not legal to defend yourself if you are about to be killed, or are you saying such a situation has never happened.
by your logic an unjustly convicted felon or criminal about to be murdered is morally wrong in defending himself with possibly lethal force.
could you expand on this? like what are some examples? do you mean, if a criminal was fleeing from a murderous cop, gets cornered, kills the cop in the process of defending himself/herself, that s/he would be convicted for another murder?
- Location
- Earth, 3rd rock from the Sun
This is a pathetically bad argument. If Paul was wrong not to make Wonder Women do X thing, then Wonder Woman was wronger not to do that thing on her own. She is her own person with her own agency.
The Authorities were on his side, as evidenced by the actual badge he flashed he presented when he actually placed Nabu under arrest. This was a 'if you take a shot at the king, you had better not miss' situation. Mess it up, and Nabu just flies off a fugitive in contempt of the authority of man. Which he did in fact try to do.
- Location
- United states
We have seen from Paul's point of view, many times that despite him not liking Nabu he didn't actually want to resort to lethal force but thought it was highly likely. When Nabu turned down some very reasonable altenatives he couldn't believe that Nabu couldn't have been reasonable about it.
Nabu never once mentioned that he could have his host talk to people and no one as far as I can tell even considered it, not even the readers. It was mentioned that the main reason he didn't go to the League was that he lost faith in them the moment they voted him on the League without even telling him or Zatana first. Which meant that if he told them he might have risked tipping Nabu.
Really? Nabu just hand himself over to the authorities? Dude really doesn't seem the type and the police couldn't do shit to arrest him. What is even your point about that? By your logic if the police were just going to let Nabu go then that left only lethal force.
Nabu has spent a good while trying to handle things without going lethal and this was shown with his own thought processes. There was even hope that he would accept them showing. Saying that he didn't even try is just rejecting facts at this point.
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- Earth, 3rd rock from the Sun
Whether you feel in jeopardy for your life when you are arrested does NOT give you any moral or legal weight. Sure you can say to the judge "he had that gleam in his eye, he was done gonna shoot me no matter what" and... nothing. Your personal feelings have no inherent value. If Nabu started killing because he thought him self in fear for his life, that he was a delusional man lying to himself as well an an immoral one. We know OL's thoughts here. He was not trying to kill Nabu here, only arrest him. He only authorized lethal force after Nabu had become a murderer.
If you are placed under arrest, you have the active duty to surrender to custody. You are not authorized to consider invalid in the normal course of circumstances. It was a trumped up charge etc. is stuff you argue before a neutral judge. And if the arrest is found to be false, if you do resist or kill someone while resisting arrest, those are still actual crimes you have committed, that you can and probably should be prosecuted for.
Silverias
Seeing is Believing
- Location
- Squiddy Places
I believed the "In a working system" could be left unsaid, but I should be more clear since I sounded ambiguous.
If the Cops come to your house and say "You're coming down to the station." and you try to shoot them, you're a murderer.
If you pull out a gun and wave it around in public saying you're gonna kill someone, and then the Cops pull a gun on you, and then you shoot that cop because it pulled a gun on you, you're a murderer.
There are exceptions, like if "You're coming to the station" is code for "You're being blackbagged and are about to die" or something, but in most cases, the law exists for a reason, and...by all rights, Nabu broke the law. Him fighting back against an (admittedly flimsy) arrest with lethal force when they made it clear they were arresting him and NOT murdering him is not morally correct, no matter what he might have believed.
OL wasn't gonna just murder him, he was gonna force the helmet off of Zatara. What happened to Nabu after that is known only to Zoat.
HogarthThree
Mostly Harmless
- Location
- USA
I still like "Star Staff-ire" better. It is a bit inconvenient to pronounce... you have to micro-pause in the middle to distinguish clearly what you are saying.
- Location
- Militiagan
Just to nitpick, but in the US the only *legal* reason a cop has to shoot someone is if they believe you are posing an imminent threat to the police officer or the public.
Yes, that definition tends to get stretched sometimes based on the definition of "believe", but the law still limits the use of lethal force to that category.
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Oh god, it's worse than the Renegade morality debates already, but there's nothing else to talk about since it's the focus of the episode. Can we at least keep it contained here, and avoid the snarky comments and/or rebuttals that will follow every time the League or OL feels good about themselves at any point in the future?
Unlikely. Klarion can be stealthy, but he's shown incapacity for that sort of subtlety. Even if the power itself was going to be an influence... wellll, now John has an Order counterpart.
Hey, for all we know, Siskin may have spent most of the last few weeks hanging out with John almost non-stop...
- Location
- Hampden Park
I'm saying that nowhere does anyone have the legal right to use lethal force in their defence if they have been sentenced to death, or are in another situation where it is legal for the attacking force to kill them. For example, if an armed criminal were robbing a bank and police arrived, identified themselves as police and informed the criminal that they were armed, that wouldn't suddenly make it legal for the criminal to shoot them dead.
The nearest I've heard of in the US is the case of Randy Weaver, where the Attorney and FBI officers involved blatantly broke the law in their arrests attempts.
That would depend on exactly what point he surrendered. If he'd done so immediately and Mister Zatara was largely unharmed, Nabu would have woken up a few days later with a shiny new golem body. If there had been a fight which Nabu survived, the Helmet would have been placed in a subspace pocket attached to an isolated planetoid in the middle of nowhere.
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- australia
SERIOUSLY? he'd be THAT careless?
dude, lob it towards the event horizon of a black hole. problem solved PERMANENTLY >.
RichardWhereat
Feanor did nothing wrong.
- Location
- Australia
Still think that's what should happen to Napier. Unless of course a blue power ring is able to completely cure him.
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