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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Twelve)

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Nah, Nabu's "oath" is pretty much correct. That's the annoying thing about introducing conceptual elements in fiction, they are universally vague and can have whatever meaning a reader ascribes to them. We even saw this with Grayven's "Conquest", the original was firmly limited to war elements while Renegade twisted it to whatever was needed at the time, even sharing with Lynne.
 
*shrugs* "life is life. death is death. order is order, and chaos is chaos. there's chaos on worlds without life, and structured societies on those with. correlation equals causation not.
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im..going to write that one down. as soon as i find a dataslate"
 
random_npc said:
... oh right. He thinks he's the good guy. Loonies like that make the worst bad guys because they will pursue their insane cause with selflessness and sacrifice.
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Amen. And the worst part is that some people will just let them keep on doing it just because they have "good intentions" or are a "good" "person". To hell with all of them; Nothing about either of those types are good at being people.
GardenerBriareus said:
So OL basically just blew up London and killed a good number of his own allies through sheer concerted retardation.

If he leaves Earth immediately after this, he's not coming back, not without everyone immediately trying to put him down like a rabid dog.

I mean, he's obviously not going to leave, since Map will fucking murder him on the spot for doing this to his city, but still.

A malfunctioning beta fork with a sharpened lump of magic just cast the world into chaos, and OL apparently intends to run away with his tail between his legs rather than face what he's allowed to happen. Meanwhile, the Light will be merrily exploiting the situation to undermine the Justice League, so that by the time he bothers coming back, the Earth will be even more screwed.

I'm sure the survivors will appreciate how Paul abandoned them to go beg a race of malevolent alien sociopaths for more power.
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Orange Light man. None of that matters.
SaltyWaffles said:
I sincerely hope OL and John were smart enough to integrate a trap into the batteries themselves (or that the things Nabu is attacking are merely decoys), seeing as they're both the obvious target for Nabu to go for (doubly so, after John explained what they were and what they were doing) and the most vulnerable part of the entire plan.
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Maybe they were using them in place of the voodoo doll cat, and for some reason needed him to be the one to do the damage to the "doll" of himself; It sounds like a Order thing.
Coda said:
Life most certainly is Order. A living thing is a hierarchy of order: a body, built on a blueprint of organs, built on a blueprint of tissues, built on a blueprint of cells, built on a blueprint of intracellular structures, built on a blueprint encoded at the molecular level in DNA. Life is the pursuit of homeostasis, the battle against entropy.

Death is the end of that battle, when reason can no longer persist, when the organization of the body no longer holds, when the structures of the self fail to remain distinct from the not-self.

Chaos is an essential nutrient to life, as it will fail to develop and grow and thrive without it, but it is not the essence of life.
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Entropy is a law of physics. Keep that in mind here.
 
Marcus.D.Basterd said:
Maybe they were using them in place of the voodoo doll cat, and for some reason needed him to be the one to do the damage to the "doll" of himself; It sounds like a Order thing.
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Nabu controls whether the Helmet comes off, doesn't he?
If he can be put in a position where he rejects his own power, that might count?... all I've got right now, and it's pretty weak.
It totally is how Constantine operates, though.
 
Dr. Bob Doom said:
Gosh, if only Paul had access to a large number of self replicating energy eaters. Those sure would come in handy in a time like this.
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Yeah. There were several things that Paul could have done much, much better during this fight/in preparation for this fight. While this is only one small example, Zoat's constant nerfing and idiot balling of Paul is a good part of the reason why I stopped commenting on this fic. These past couple posts, the final climax to more than a year of writing, have been enough to spark my interest again. But the writing's failings were predictable and are evident.

Many people value this fic for it's slice of life elements, but I find those much harder to enjoy when the action and strategy bits cause frequent forehead slaps.
 
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Bob Saget said:
Yeah. There were several things that Paul could have done much, much better. While this is only one small example, Zoat's constant nerfing and idiot balling of Paul is a good part of the reason why I stopped commenting on this fic. These past couple posts, the final climax to more than a year of writing, have been enough to spark my interest again. But the writing's failings were predictable and are evident.

Many people value this fic for it's slice of life elements, but I find those much harder to enjoy when the action and strategy bits cause frequent forehead slaps.
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Well i don't know about you but with how he is known to be a WH40K fan he might just have a mental block against letting a demon have access to Order magic.
 
I don't think it's "idiot-balling" but OL did spend a lot of time standing around watching in that fight, rather than making constructs.

The nerve-paralyzer was good, but after Nabu learned how to stop his railguns, he pretty-much turned into a bystander.
Part of that is due to John stalling for time, but even before that with Adom and Rob attacking, Paul didn't really do much.
He might have been better served zipping off to check on jade, or summoning the Horde to drain magic.

That said, I'm assuming Nabu knows how to deal with demons. They'd probably have been pretty easily dealt with.
Potentially permanently.
Plus, there's the risk of Zatara getting ate.
 
Death is orderly, ceasation of movement, of chaotic thought; one more step towards the ground state of the universe.

Life is using Order, replicating cells, genes, reasoned thought, against Death.
 
Potentially using his demons is just one example of the avenues Paul could've used to stage the fight better. I'm sure Zoat's made reasons or will make reasons why he didn't use or think to use various ideas, but that's a good part of the problem.

He could have potentially made combat drones, possibly with mithril armor, with combat VI's/protocols designed specifically for this fight. Or forgotten the VI's and just have Paul control them directly when he's in accelerated mode. Large combat drones or small combat drones or both, would have made great distractions/chaff that Nabu would have needed to cut through.

He could have potentially constructed hidden turrets with unusual (non-lethal) payloads like freezing effects or etc., programmed to fire or fire at a given signal if Nabu wasn't near anyone else who might get caught in the effect.

He could have potentially seeded the area at strategic points with scry warded debilitating bombs of some various non-lethal nature, that only detonate at OL's discretion.

He could have potentially set up forcefield generators around the area to momentarily contain Nabu when it was called for.

He could have potentially used the Ophidian.

And those are just potential avenues listed off spontaneously. Paul has many, many tools at his disposal, having the best tool in the galaxy on his finger. And it's often ignored, in these instances, so the plot can continue along the constructed outline.
 
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Basically the weakest point is the forced nature of this fight. Most readers want a fight against Nabu and so it must be delivered. This, along with the very successfully executed character assasination of Nabu OOC, and the inability of Nabu himself and the Justice League to act robbed me of any excitement.
 
Bob Saget said:
Potentially using his demons is just one example of the avenues Paul could've used to stage the fight better. I'm sure Zoat's made reasons or will make reasons why he didn't use or think to use various ideas, but that's a good part of the problem.

He could have potentially made combat drones, possibly with mithril armor, with combat VI's/protocols designed specifically for this fight. Or forgotten the VI's and just have Paul control them directly when he's in accelerated mode. Large combat drones or small combat drones or both, would have made great distractions/chaff that Nabu would have needed to cut through.

He could have potentially constructed hidden turrets with unusual (non-lethal) payloads like freezing effects or etc., programmed to fire or fire at a given signal if Nabu wasn't near anyone else who might get caught in the effect.

He could have potentially seeded the area at strategic points with scry warded debilitating bombs of some various non-lethal nature, that only detonate at OL's discretion.

He could have potentially set up forcefield generators around the area to momentarily contain Nabu when it was called for.

He could have potentially used the Ophidian.

And those are just potential avenues listed off spontaneously. Paul has many, many tools at his disposal, having the best tool in the galaxy on his finger. And it's often ignored, in these instances, so the plot can continue along the constructed outline.
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Who's to say some of these weren't implemented but never used? There wasn't even a hint that Siskin would play a part in the fight, but he did anyways. There could have been dozens of contingencies that simply never got used because they were more dangerous than the initial plans.

Silverias said:
I stopped trusting that front page ever since your joke during Stars Crossed.

(I would also have just totally been fine with renegade, I am super curious if he's going on any adventures besides the "Slowly slipping towards suicide" ones
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You can do a little better than that. The index is correct except in cases where it would be funny if it wasn't, or when Zoat doesn't want to spoil something.
Riyshn said:
IIRC, the oath doesn't actually have any power in itself. It's purpose is as a mnemonic to help focus the Lantern on the appropriate emotion, and also a timing tool to give the rings time to actually get a full charge.
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That's correct in this setting. I don't think the timing matters, as Sinestro said that Grayven could say his oath faster to charge his ring faster, but the oath also serves as a key to keep unwanted people from recharging. Alan had to be somewhat exact in Jack Chance's oath to recharge from his lantern.
Marcus.D.Basterd said:
Entropy is a law of physics. Keep that in mind here.
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It's not actually. Entropy is a statistical inevitability because there are more unordered states than there are ordered states, but entropy can reverse in small enough systems. There's nothing physically impossible about the air in a balloon spontaneously compressing, making the balloon deflate. It's just absurdly unlikely.
 
aetherialDawn said:
(For example: He perceives that his enemies are aligned to Chaos, and therefore assumed that they intend to die for their cause - rather than accepting that it is possible that, if he does enough harm, they will retreat. He doesn't even discuss it, he just assumes that everyone else thinks the same.)
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Well, Paul is an Eris-worshipper, Johnny is a Lord of Chaos - knock off, Adom is not as much Chaos as anti-Lord of Order, and Jade is insignificant.
The problem with this is, in a rather recent development of collective memetic heritage, we now realize that order != good, and chaos != evil. As such. I don't think Nabu got the memo.
 
Cornuthaum said:
Nabu of Cilia, Lord of Order, is willing to die fighting a demon-bargaining murderer turned Lord of Chaos and an insane snake cultist given cosmic power even after they perfidiously ambush him, blast him with magic-corroding and soul-searing powers, after they blast him full force with the concentrated essence of pure terror, even after they corrupt a champion of the gods to go against him.

Despite his shields shattering, despite treachery most foul, Nabu endures and fights back against corruption, devilry and chaos.

It's all a matter of perspective.
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...except that it's not.

Like, you can try to spin things that way, but that just blatantly ignores a lot of the facts, including ones that Nabu has acknowledged himself.

For instance, John is no more a murderer than Nabu is himself.

Secondly, Nabu initiated the violence, not the others. Nabu also turned down all of the options for peacefully resolving the entire situation.

Thirdly, Nabu is deciding to A) commit suicide, B) kill everyone he's fighting, all of whom are noted heroes (some of whom are quite well liked by the public), C) kill his host, who is a hero whom has done nothing wrong, D) potentially kill dozens or hundreds of innocent bystanders, E) forgo any other strategy that could resolve this engagement without harming innocents, and F) violate the law, kill a law enforcement officer, kill the leader of an internationally recognized nation and a beloved hero, and resist lawful arrest.

Nabu has not had any indication whatsoever that OL lies or is untrustworthy. In fact, he has evidence that OL goes out of his way to keep his word. The golem offered to Nabu was basically a way to resolve the situation with everyone happy. Nabu did not even attempt to analyze it himself to determine if it was everything advertised; he instead destroyed it in an act of pure pettiness and spite. He did not even take the idea and propose an alternative, whereby he would craft a golem body himself (and thus could be absolutely sure it was genuine).

Here, Nabu is not acting in accordance with Order, Good, or even Rationality. He is acting selfishly, impulsively, recklessly, irrationally, violently, and egotistically.
 
SaltyWaffles said:
...except that it's not.

Like, you can try to spin things that way, but that just blatantly ignores a lot of the facts, including ones that Nabu has acknowledged himself.

For instance, John is no more a murderer than Nabu is himself.

Secondly, Nabu initiated the violence, not the others. Nabu also turned down all of the options for peacefully resolving the entire situation.

Thirdly, Nabu is deciding to A) commit suicide, B) kill everyone he's fighting, all of whom are noted heroes (some of whom are quite well liked by the public), C) kill his host, who is a hero whom has done nothing wrong, D) potentially kill dozens or hundreds of innocent bystanders, E) forgo any other strategy that could resolve this engagement without harming innocents, and F) violate the law, kill a law enforcement officer, kill the leader of an internationally recognized nation and a beloved hero, and resist lawful arrest.

Nabu has not had any indication whatsoever that OL lies or is untrustworthy. In fact, he has evidence that OL goes out of his way to keep his word. The golem offered to Nabu was basically a way to resolve the situation with everyone happy. Nabu did not even attempt to analyze it himself to determine if it was everything advertised; he instead destroyed it in an act of pure pettiness and spite. He did not even take the idea and propose an alternative, whereby he would craft a golem body himself (and thus could be absolutely sure it was genuine).

Here, Nabu is not acting in accordance with Order, Good, or even Rationality. He is acting selfishly, impulsively, recklessly, irrationally, violently, and egotistically.
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I'd honestly like to see what an alternative universe, non crazy Fate has to say about this one.
 
Jamie Roberts said:
You are literally arguing that you have a better understanding of Nabu's ideological position than Nabu does.
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O-o

...Who said anything about anyone's ideological position but maybe my own. I mean, Jesus fuck, you didn't get on a high horse when @TheBlackLight brought it up first. I mean fuck it, I was basically giving a fist bump to fucking Chaos, or are you accusing me of being so fucking stupid that I believe that Nabu could unbend enough to give a grudging nod to Chaos? That is disgustingly insulting.

An empty box is more orderly than a full one, no matter how perfectly you pack it. A slave to a lord or order is more orderly than a free person. Death is more orderly than Life, and we spend our lives using reason--ordered logic if you will--to improve ourselves and avoid death. JFC.

If I was out to describe Nabu's, and probably most LOO's ideological position I'd crib from a book I read ages ago--While the universe arose from Chaos and will eventually return to Chaos, it is Order that dictates this.
 
GilliamYaeger said:
I'd honestly like to see what an alternative universe, non crazy Fate has to say about this one.
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Well the first thing I think would come to an alternate Nabu's mind is "What's with the pickiness? Sure a wizard host is nice, but it's not a deal breaker. There's over 7 billion potential hosts out there. If you're really desperate, you could resurrect one of the 100 billion dead people. If you can't find a single candidate you can trust to put you back on after wearing you for a while out of a pool of 108 billion people, maybe the problem is on your end, yes? Or find a pair of soul mates, like you were supposed to do in the first place, they can take turns if one needs a break every now and again."
 
Sceptic said:
Your estimate seems a tad on the high side. An order of magnitude is "a tad", right?
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HAHAHAHAHAHA! Quite the opposite, those are numbers based on estimates that homo sapiens sapiens is only 50 thousand years old.

Since there's some who believe that humanity developed 200 thousand to 150 thousand years ago, those numbers are quite conservative.
 
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I'm kind of hoping that Chantinelle makes a sudden appearance at the last second, similarly to how Siskin used fear to mess with Nabu's concentration, only using Giovanni's love for his daughter to fight within the helmet. Or maybe combine/bolster the love fueled magic she uses through the star sapphire staff.
 
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