PostwarGryphon
Traveller of Planes
- Location
- Australia
Huh. That's a pity.
With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Twelve)
- Thread starter Mr Zoat
- Start date
- Status
Simmr001
Aquaman 2018 Fan Club President. I prefer Bob.
- Location
- Crawley, West Sussex
- Pronouns
- he/him
then we need to get him coverted. we have the technology.
HanEmpire
Delicious
Actually yes, I do want Joker to go to Heaven if given the choice between:
1) Heaven, eternal paradise
2) Hell, eternal torture
Infinite torture/punishment for a finite crime is by definition infinitely immoral.
Silveraith
Argent Phantasm
- Location
- Terra Atlantus
If souls become demons when in Hell long enough are the demons punishing themselves? If not then it's not infinite punishment for DC Comics Hell. Thus, to Hell with the Joker.
HanEmpire
Delicious
The impression I got from the story is that only a tiny fraction of the damned become demons (like the Flash's villainous enemy, and by losing his remaining humanity at that), so for the vast majority it would be infinite punishment. Of course they become so mutilated that the label of "human" probably becomes stretched (like the writhing masses at Fawcett), so in that sense I suppose the punishment is finite. But still, the scale somewhat skewed don't you think?
Jamie Roberts
Hávamál 127
- Location
- N/A
- Pronouns
- she/her
Well they clearly don't enjoy it down there, what with how much work they put into getting out.
- Location
- United states
Wasn't it mentioned by WoG that due to Joker being insane and thus can't be held accountable for his actions that Jack Napier would go to heaven upon death?
Actually it does.
No comment on some of the other weird shit that goes on.Luke 1:38 said:
zhuull
SB still lying to protect Racists what else is new
I'd have to double check to be sure, but I'm fairly certain that's actually one of the things that the various gospels don't agree on and each give conflicting accounts of.
HogarthThree
Mostly Harmless
- Location
- USA
That's what I didn't really get with the conventional description of Christian Heaven. It sounds so boring. I've had people suggest that I won't find it boring... but that sounds wrong too.
If I think it sounds boring now, and somehow I won't in Heaven, that means I have been fundamentally altered. So it isn't really me going to Heaven, but someone else who may have shared some of my memories and such. So I've truly died, even if there is an afterlife.
Also, the "everything is perfect" thing isn't something I buy either. Some of the most important things I do in my life are to improve myself. To learn, become more compassionate, more wise, etc. It doesn't sound like any of that is going on in Heaven. So what will I do of consequence? There is nothing for me to accomplish.
Also, how can everything be perfect for everyone? Suppose my best friend is an atheist. So obviously he won't be there. Won't I be sad about him burning in hellfire for all eternity? If I'm not sad, then something drastic has happened to my personality.
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- Location
- Somewhere!
- Pronouns
- She/Her
You know that thing priests always tell kids when they're sad about a pet? The way mine explained it was 'if you need your dog to be in Heaven to be happy, he'll be there'. There isn't a lot of actual description of what it's like, so why assume that everyone in Heaven is in the same place, or even interacts? Maybe it's more like a lotus eater machine, and you see what you need to see to be happy. A personal heaven, for you.
Krazyfan1
Worrying for the future.
- Location
- Australia
Wasn't this a plot point in All dogs go to heaven 2?
RichardWhereat
Feanor did nothing wrong.
- Location
- Australia
Or, not, and write the story they wanna write.
Based on Zauriel's story and what John Constantine has described of Giovanni Zatara's reaction to an Angel -
[THEORY]
It sounds like Angels are 'servants of God' and beings who serve divine (Possibly just Christian) Order.
They are not incapable of deciding to do otherwise - but by default, they enact and enforce their instructions.
Many of them are willing to follow Asmodel in becoming evil and even trying to attack God. Many of them are willing to follow Zauriel in defending the Earth against evil even if it seems hopeless.
[/THEORY]
[SPECULATION]
It may be that humanity was created, in that case, because while Angels are orderly they find it difficult to be good - even in the case of Zauriel and the angels who may someday follow him, their decisions are their own but are inspired by human action.
[/SPECULATION]
[THEORY]
It sounds like Angels are 'servants of God' and beings who serve divine (Possibly just Christian) Order.
They are not incapable of deciding to do otherwise - but by default, they enact and enforce their instructions.
Many of them are willing to follow Asmodel in becoming evil and even trying to attack God. Many of them are willing to follow Zauriel in defending the Earth against evil even if it seems hopeless.
[/THEORY]
[SPECULATION]
It may be that humanity was created, in that case, because while Angels are orderly they find it difficult to be good - even in the case of Zauriel and the angels who may someday follow him, their decisions are their own but are inspired by human action.
[/SPECULATION]
Preferably without having events like Gabriel raping Mary, or any other new age century "Christianity is EVIL!!!" wank based on misconceptions about the Bible, etc.
I mean... Killing all the firstborn sons - babies included - seems to be pretty clear. Even Matthias's presentation is that maybe Moses did it with power granted by God, rather than God making the decision.
So from that alone - but other things also - regarding the religion, not the divinity it's just not all misconception, though some people try to hide behind that anyway. Like all institutions I'm aware of, the religion struggles with corruption, with graft, with abuse, with conflict... If there is a 'perfect' institution, it's not any Christian sect I've heard of.
It's just that, since they claim complete moral authority, they're held to a higher standard.
(Besides, Hellblazer has the government be full of demon-cultists. It's not like the secular world gets a BETTER treatment in that comic! The only reason it comes up less is that secular villains usually end up somewhat more thoroughly defeated, and because they claimed less in the first place they fall less short.)
Massgamer
Advance toward the Future
- Location
- The Future
Course that might be changing with Satanus in charge and as we have seen dragging the development of hell up with modern standards or at least trying. Could be in time hell will become a chaotic orderly place rather than the pure chaos and madness that it is which could lead to most demons not wanting to live unless they have business in human world.
@Mr Zoat since it was mentioned earlier what are the chances of Elphius Levi possibly showing up later in story since he is literally the kind of magic user OL is looking for? I get even if the chance is there it is a long way off and he might even show up to join the thing OL has set up while he is off planet so just curious.
- Location
- texas
The Spectre is the one who killed the firstborn of Egypt in the comics, despite Nabu's interference.
Nabu was basically the court magician, from what I understand.
The interesting thing about that is that while the Lords of Order and Chaos have had multiple origins, one of them was that they were made by the Presence.
So that would make that conflict an Angel of Wrath fighting an Angel of Order.
Or a Demon of Order, if one takes Vertigo's Kid Eternity series as gospel, but well that's rather hard to reconcile with the Presence being upset with the Spectre for killing the vast majority of lords of order and chaos. Killing demons would be well within his job title, one would think.
In the comics, 'what happened' is an unclear and fluid thing, changing without full regard to sense or causation.
In this case I actually just meant: Sometimes things are done in the Bible which seem... to just be evil. The Book of Job is pretty clear on what can be done about that - "You're human, God isn't, laws don't apply to God."
But it does mean that... God just allows, or empowers, or does evil acts sometimes, because morality doesn't enter into it. Human perspective, even on evil or on good, is forbidden from attaching.
In comics, regarding angels and externalized aspects of the Presence, there are just forces powerful enough to try and do something about it now and then. When Asmodel or the Spectre do evil, they may have to struggle because others oppose him (sometimes, even other angels and other aspects of the Presence! For all that Asmodel is an evil Angel, remember that he is opposed by Zauriel, a good one. The Spectre has been opposed by the Radiance. Etc.)
My greatest concern as it applies to real life is with religion being used as a veil for evil - not even, really, with religion being evil, because it isn't. But just as I dislike governments or corporations using bureaucracy or trust invested in them to try and cover up or even enable corruption, graft, abuse, foolishness - I don't want religion used for that either, or at least I want to keep it from harming those I can reach.
Hopefully that makes sense to you all! If not, hmm, I'm not really sure how to better clarify it.
- Location
- Just hanging
I can't help but imagine Paul calling a meeting together to discuss which afterlife each member of the team is aiming for on the off chance they die and need to be resurrected or where to call their soul from in a seance, with each of them disturbed and curious, given their life styles/beliefs/sources of power.
Given the fact that Zatanna/Robin/Artemis/etc would aim for heaven, Cornwall Boy goes to ?Other World?, Kon/Donna along with Aqualad/Tempest/Aquagirl would have the Greek afterlife, M'gann has the martian afterlife, and where ever new gods such as Canis end up. Wally might end up in the speed force if it becomes a thing, and if any other members have their souls messed with enough might change where they go after they die.
Though it would help narrow where to search for if their souls left their bodies, imagine their surprise if certain groups were separated due to an odd comment such as blindly asking a random deity to save their life through a harrowing situation.
Given the fact that Zatanna/Robin/Artemis/etc would aim for heaven, Cornwall Boy goes to ?Other World?, Kon/Donna along with Aqualad/Tempest/Aquagirl would have the Greek afterlife, M'gann has the martian afterlife, and where ever new gods such as Canis end up. Wally might end up in the speed force if it becomes a thing, and if any other members have their souls messed with enough might change where they go after they die.
Though it would help narrow where to search for if their souls left their bodies, imagine their surprise if certain groups were separated due to an odd comment such as blindly asking a random deity to save their life through a harrowing situation.
Science
If you're reading this, omae wa mo shindeiru.
- Location
- Killeen, TX
What about a nightclub or a restaurant?
Silveraith
Argent Phantasm
- Location
- Terra Atlantus
Ganurath
Literal Enthusiast
- Location
- A Valid Location
- Pronouns
- He/Him
That runs into the same problem of escaping Hell to get a job in retail, which is more than a little self-defeating.
- Status