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I think the more specific power generally trumps the more general if the general is a valid target for the specific: E.G. a developed Lynne (Oh just got the In Conquest Born & The Wylding reference if it's intended) would probably beat any other major God (excepting pantheon heads and pantheon heads if plot appropriate) with proper preparations, as they have a minds and no special protection against psychics, but Granny is the laser guided destroyer/breaker/tamer of all children and probably would be the hard counter to Lynn by rule of cool/portfolio.

Fair point, but she's also not infallible, as Mister Miracle shows, so I wouldn't say she's a hard counter so much as the two of them both have their "I win" buttons, and so whoever deploys theirs first wins.
 
I think the more specific power generally trumps the more general if the general is a valid target for the specific: E.G. a developed Lynne (Oh just got the In Conquest Born & The Wylding reference if it's intended) would probably beat any other major God (excepting pantheon heads and pantheon heads if plot appropriate) with proper preparations, as they have a minds and no special protection against psychics, but Granny is the laser guided destroyer/breaker/tamer of all children and probably would be the hard counter to Lynn by rule of cool/portfolio.
See, the thing is that just because you're a New God doesn't mean you can automagically resist having a psychic reality-warping godling punch your brain out the back of your skull with her mind - and if Lynne isn't blind, deaf, and lobotomized when she meets Granny Goodness, she's going to realize the old bitch is a walking mass of toxic assholishness within seconds of encountering her.

Granny Goodness' indoctrination is a matter of psychological & emotional manipulation, not conceptual sorcery, and therefore it has actual limitations. First, she needs to be able to make her victim buy whatever line of crap she uses to destroy their previous beliefs and rebuild them as loyal slaves to Apokolips. That's rather difficult when the child in question can just look inside your head and instantly know that you're a lying piece of shit who has done this countless times.

Second, she needs to be able to coerce them through main force if they try to lash out or escape. Considering Lynne can turn the universe around her into a psychedelic ruin and fry peoples' brains with minimal effort, that's going to also be a tall order - even something like an agony matrix would have a risk of her instinctively lashing out and obliterating swathes of her surroundings until either she dies or the device is ruined by all the psychic mojo being thrown around.

Third, she needs to make her "charges" feel completely isolated and alone, until hope withers and they embrace Stockholm Syndrome, which she then uses to facilitate their brainwashing. Lynne has a direct spiritual link to Grayven and also knows the latter will do pretty much anything to get her back, so unless Granny Goodness actually kills Grayven and then presents her with his severed head, that's not happening.

On a more Doylist note, did you see what happened when Sensei and Lady Shiva decided to inconvenience Grayven? Yeah, Granny Goodness is less combat-capable than them; her entire portfolio is built around one specific form of social manipulation, and while she probably has better personal protection, the Renegade would respond with a much higher level of firepower if he ever caught wind of her within an AU of anything he cared about.

Also, having Granny Goodness casually curbstomp Lynne because lelsemantics is the equivalent of that time Deathstroke was written as being able to punch out the Flash and hijack Hal Jordan's ring in the span of moments because "he's a trained CQC specialist."
 
Also, having Granny Goodness casually curbstomp Lynne because lelsemantics is the equivalent of that time Deathstroke was written as being able to punch out the Flash and hijack Hal Jordan's ring in the span of moments because "he's a trained CQC specialist."

First off, I can buy the Flash thing because the Flash is dumb and rarely stays at untouchable speeds for the entirety of a fight, in spite of the Speed Force or whatever comic book crap he's got preventing all possible worries about collateral damage.

Second off, that wasn't Hal Jordan, that was Kyle Rayner, who has explicitly been noted as the Earth Green Lantern most acquainted with fear and doubt. I doubt Deathstroke could have actually forced the ring to work for him, but just the idea of it sent Kyle into a spiral of doubt. "He can't do that- can he?" Because he's doubting (a form of fear), the ring doesn't work as well. "Oh gosh, maybe he can." Ring then stops working even faster as he constantly fights, constantly feels like he's losing, and because that was his thing back then, "Why am I losing? If it were Hal Jordan, he wouldn't be losing", which adds some despair into the mix and causes the ring to lose effectiveness even faster. Given that in that same issue, Deathstroke had canonically done enough research to know that a laser pointer would be like a laser gun to the Atom when he was shrunk, I can buy that he had done enough research on Green Lantern rings to realize that doubt can make them stop working and that the current Green Lantern struggles to stand in the shadow of Hal Jordan.
 
First off, I can buy the Flash thing because the Flash is dumb and rarely stays at untouchable speeds for the entirety of a fight, in spite of the Speed Force or whatever comic book crap he's got preventing all possible worries about collateral damage.

Second off, that wasn't Hal Jordan, that was Kyle Rayner, who has explicitly been noted as the Earth Green Lantern most acquainted with fear and doubt. I doubt Deathstroke could have actually forced the ring to work for him, but just the idea of it sent Kyle into a spiral of doubt. "He can't do that- can he?" Because he's doubting (a form of fear), the ring doesn't work as well. "Oh gosh, maybe he can." Ring then stops working even faster as he constantly fights, constantly feels like he's losing, and because that was his thing back then, "Why am I losing? If it were Hal Jordan, he wouldn't be losing", which adds some despair into the mix and causes the ring to lose effectiveness even faster. Given that in that same issue, Deathstroke had canonically done enough research to know that a laser pointer would be like a laser gun to the Atom when he was shrunk, I can buy that he had done enough research on Green Lantern rings to realize that doubt can make them stop working and that the current Green Lantern struggles to stand in the shadow of Hal Jordan.

Nope, it's explicitly stated that Deathstroke managed to disable the ring by just touching it and then telling it to stop working, because apparently Lantern Rings are made to standards that Korean sweat shops would consider shameful. Then it bullshitted him being able to cold-cock Flash as "Deathstroke is sooooo awesome that he can predict where the Flash is going to go and then put his fist where the Flash will try to dodge".

That entire scene is just the authors sucking Deathstroke off by having him casually beat the shit out of people who absolutely should have turned him into a smear on the pavement, while completely failing to realize they're just making Deathstroke look bad in the process and missing the point of the comics that helped make him popular.

To further clarify things for people who don't know about this scene - he pwns two A-listers without taking a single step. He just stands there and they obligingly walk into his fists*. Contrast this with how they showed his original fights with the Teen Titans comics (y'know, before they made him a boring sociopath because of the TV show): he sets up the battlefield ahead of time, he researches the fuck out of his opponents, and yet he's still constantly in motion, doing everything he can to keep the Titans off-balance and maintain the initiative. He is a (mostly) baseline human fighting demigods, and those comics set things up so that he's clearly pushing himself to the edge of his skills to pull it off, which makes you respect him all the more and increases the sense of verisimilitude.

FAKE EDIT: Going back to refresh my memory of the scene in question, he apparently took down the entire JSA in that fight. All of them. At once. While standing stock-still in the middle of the street. Bull. Fucking. Shit. There is no quantity of drugs sufficient to make that sound plausible.
 
I'm imagining Jade calming down later, THINKING about everything, realizing she was wrong about what Grayvern was doing, and realize that she basically has no way to get to him, and her presidential pardon probably doesnt exist anymore...
It sounded like he left the pardon when he left. A delivered/executed pardon is not revocable. Because the power to pardon is actually enumerated in the constitution, but a process to unpardon someone is not. Like how someone granted citizenship by legislation can have that stripped, but some born a citizen as listed in the constitution cannot, because there is no legislation to reverse.

It stops now- I'm permanently removing you from the thread.
As a point of curiosity and have never been thread banned (NOT requesting one either) can someone banned from a thread still view it while logged in and follow it to receive notices of new posts, just not post themselves, or to they need to bookmark the thread and open it in an incognito tab or something?

Laundromats can wrinkle the fabric of space?! Dang, why does anybody use washing machines? :V
The great sock lottery! Sure, most people end up loosing a sock or two, but what about those big winners who get ALL the socks?

Granny Goodness' indoctrination is a matter of psychological & emotional manipulation, not conceptual sorcery
Since it is her actual portfolio, pretty sure she does have magic mojo relating to it.
 
Due to watching sitcoms, cartoons, and gag comics I can't help but imagine Grayven wearing a robe, slippers, and cradling a tub of ice cream while all the other occupants of the mountain try their best in comforting him.
 
I think this happened because Grayven never really condemned the League/Light to Jade. I mean yeah he may have implied some stuff but based on his actions Jade thought he was onboard and he didn't disabuse her of the notion.

He joined the Light, public ally broke from the justice league and well acted like a super villain.
Also this. I... don't really get what Grayven was thinking when he gave her the vague warning to go to ground and not use a League of Shadows safehouse to do so, without any further elaboration.
I think my main problem at the moment is that this feels like one of the 'karmic revengereward'-type thing Zoat has been hinting at OOC pretty much since Grayven was introduced - something that more and more seems like it's only there to placate the haters, and otherwise does not need to exist; I mean when is Paul going to be hit with laser-guided karma for his fuckups? In a way that will actually personally affect him, or maybe even change him from the stasis he's been in since at least Dr Fate?

Given how little we see of the SI's personal interactions with anyone when they're not the immediate focus, this scene seems to have come from out of nowhere; I get what people are saying about the lack of clarity from Grayven, but that's basically my problem - when we do see him and Jade interacting, they seem quite open and communicative with each other, and I'm pretty sure she was the only person other than Batman and Gravy himself that knew he was at least nominally undercover.

Grayven does not typically censor himself, especially with those he trusts, so would have been more than clear on the disdain he held much of the Light and their operations in. Likewise, his entire relationship with Jade predicated on at least the League of Shadows being destroyed and her being 'freed' from them.

So when he calls her and says he's undertaking a major operation that might affect her (hmm, who does she otherwise hang out with?), that she should go to ground 'but not, you know, with the League of Shadows' (so obviously this operation that involves the LoS will have the result that any LoS safehouse will be, in fact, unsafe), and the typically headstrong Jade who had been arguing with him just before merely goes with it...

tl;dr -
Grayven: "Hey babe, just about to activate for a major operation-
Jade: *argument over lack of information and ability to be involved*
Grayven: *barely wins with logic*
Jade: "Hmph, I guess that's ok then."
Grayven: "It doesn't involve you specifically but might otherwise splash down on you, so I was thinking maybe you could go visit a safehouse for a few days. Just, uh, not any that the League of Shadows provided. Or knows about at all. *wink wink, nudge nudge*"
Jade: "Ahhh, ok."

With all that covered, and with no signs of decreased closeness between them, why the fuck was this such a complete surprise to her?
 
Granny Goodness' indoctrination is a matter of psychological & emotional manipulation, not conceptual sorcery, and therefore it has actual limitations.

actually, it kind of is sorcery. She's a fairly strong new god, that means she gets to cheat a bit within her sphere of influence. Like how kanto tends to know exactly what tool to use and how, she would inherently know exactly what levers to push to throw lynn off, and might well get increased reliance against lynn since being immune to retaliation is part of child abuse. It could still go either way since we haven't really seen how much new gods can cheat, but if granny was able to chose her moment or prepare the ground I'd give her better than even odds.
 
Nope, it's explicitly stated that Deathstroke managed to disable the ring by just touching it and then telling it to stop working, because apparently Lantern Rings are made to standards that Korean sweat shops would consider shameful.

You are wrong about this, as Deathstroke explicitly started the fight with Green Lantern by breaking his fingers, which is another great way to break someone's concentration.

Then it bullshitted him being able to cold-cock Flash as "Deathstroke is sooooo awesome that he can predict where the Flash is going to go and then put his fist where the Flash will try to dodge".

This is also wrong, since Deathstroke used explosives to force Flash to go where he wanted him to. You know, that "setting up the battlefield ahead of time" thing you extol the virtues of.

Going back to refresh my memory of the scene in question, he apparently took down the entire JSA in that fight. All of them. At once. While standing stock-still in the middle of the street. Bull. Fucking. Shit. There is no quantity of drugs sufficient to make that sound plausible.

First off, you mean the JLA, as taking down the JSA is a whole 'nother discussion.

Second off, keep in mind that there were only three real heavy hitters in that fight: Flash, Zatanna, and Green Lantern. As mentioned, he prepped the battlefield to make Flash go where he wanted. He dealt with Zatanna next by exploiting the fact that she has to speak her incantations and the fact that for some bizarre reason, she never enchanted her costume to act like armor. And I don't think you can argue that a prepared Deathstroke couldn't take down Green Arrow, Black Canary, the Atom, and Hawkman all at once.

Most of the following two paragraphs is conjecture, but I feel it to be reasonable conjecture. At this point in his story, Kyle is undeniably a rookie; my guess is that the only reason he's not with the Teen Titans instead is because he's too old. So, as a relative rookie, the reason he didn't act sooner could easily be because he couldn't think of a way to hurt Deathstroke without risking his teammates (most of whom were in close-quarters range, the way Deathstroke likes to fight), or just because he didn't realize the guy was a threat and then all of a sudden his team's dropping like flies.

So now it's just Kyle Rayner. Sure, he has the most powerful weapon on the planet on his finger, but he also has self-confidence issues up the wazoo at this point because he feels like he can never measure up to Hal Jordan. (This last bit is verifiable fact if you've ever read a comic with Kyle in it before Hal came back. Plus, even if you don't believe me on that, the guy is literally a struggling artist who is supposed to do the job of an entire Corps. That would be enough to cause nearly anyone to have confidence issues.) Now the success or failure of the mission rests on him, and he's not sure he can do it. His more experienced teammates just tried, and got trounced like amateurs. How can he do what they can't? He hesitates, just as Deathstroke was planning for him to, which weakens the ring's automatic shielding enough for Deathstroke to break his fingers and instill more fear, which turns into a self-defeating pattern of doubt, pain, and despair that essentially turns the will-powered ring into a fancy piece of jewelry. Perfectly reasonable when you remember that the ring runs on willpower and that Kyle was struggling in that department at that point in his story.

Finally, your position that the writers were just trying to Worf the League to make Deathstroke look good seems rather unlikely, because he's dealt with speedsters before (possibly even the same speedster, if this is anything to go by) and Zatanna has an easily-exploitable weakness to go along with her immense power. However, Deathstroke actually wasn't certain if his plan for Green Lantern would work, at least if Green Arrow's perspective has anything to do with it (which, as a veteran superhero who's trained in martial arts and thus understands body language, seems to be a reasonably good source). Since it clearly did stop Kyle from using his ring for that fight, it looks mostly like his plan for Green Lantern was just the one he thought was his best shot, and it worked. Literally everyone else in that fight was working with roughly baseline-level human durability, so I find it quite bizarre that you seem to think any of the rest of it was implausible.

Although, since the scans I provided clearly prove that you were wrong about a number of things in that fight, perhaps you were simply operating off of faulty memory and didn't actually go back and check the way you said you did.
 
The concentration of an average Joe, not a Greenie.

Kyle is a rookie at that point, and never went through training from Hell Kilowog. Plus with the self-doubt that, again, was his defining character flaw to overcome at the time, I don't find it unreasonable that Deathstroke was all it took to break his concentration. If it were John Stewart, Hal Jordan, or Guy Gardner, then I'd find it implausible.

EDIT: Please read the rest of the post, as that has a far more detailed explanation as to how Kyle's shield failed.
 
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actually, it kind of is sorcery. She's a fairly strong new god, that means she gets to cheat a bit within her sphere of influence. Like how kanto tends to know exactly what tool to use and how, she would inherently know exactly what levers to push to throw lynn off, and might well get increased reliance against lynn since being immune to retaliation is part of child abuse. It could still go either way since we haven't really seen how much new gods can cheat, but if granny was able to chose her moment or prepare the ground I'd give her better than even odds.
Keep in mind that Grayven imprinted his own divine nature of Conquest onto Lynne; that of resisting domination and striving for power and control. That sounds like it would give Goodness more than a little trouble.

There's also the problem that she wouldn't have much time at all to work before Grayven showed up and tore her head off, which would put a bit of a crimp in her brainwashing campaign.
 
Keep in mind that Grayven imprinted his own divine nature of Conquest onto Lynne; that of resisting domination and striving for power and control. That sounds like it would give Goodness more than a little trouble.

There's also the problem that she wouldn't have much time at all to work before Grayven showed up and tore her head off, which would put a bit of a crimp in her brainwashing campaign.

lyns is still small in a divine sense. Once she's grown into her power she would likely be able to whip the floor with granny, as she is now granny would have decent odds of winning an initial fight via induced mental breakdown, what happens next is kind of up in the air. Lyn's dad showing up, whisking her to safety and then vaporizing granny and the planet she's standing on if fairly high on the list of likely fallout. Either way, lyn is troubled enough that gravyen would be well served to make sure she's never even in the same room as granny, no matter how it shakes out lyn would come away from a meeting with granny rather traumatized.
 
no matter how it shakes out lyn would come away from a meeting with granny rather traumatized.

Wait, you mean that this isn't a given for anyone encountering Granny Goodness?

If an environmental required Will a green lantern losing consciousness would mean death, I rather doubt it works that way and (if my memory isn't faulty) I remember instances of it happening without them dying.

Okay, I'll buy that logic... for the environmental shield. You still have yet to address this, however:

It's an environmental shield. I can completely believe that mechanical trauma could overwhelm the lowest level protections provided by a power ring.
 
Depends do you agree that it would work deep underwater? Because it if can resist high pressure human level strength is simply too weak to break it.

Since when is Deathstroke baseline human? Besides, they designed the environmental shield for space, which has different requirements. Also also, if memory serves (although if someone can find proof otherwise, I'll concede), Ganthet literally made Kyle's ring last-minute (including removing the yellow impurity), so I could also buy that he just didn't have time to made it up to the par of all the other rings.
 
the Flash is dumb and rarely stays at untouchable speeds for the entirety of a fight,

Or to put it another way: The Flash's Rogue Gallery is composed of supervillains who play the game. They don't kill their hero, don't try to find out his secret identity or target his loved ones, don't target children, etc. and thus manage to get away with the occasional score and Mirror Man keeps them out of prison because Flash doesn't resort to Batman level tactics to cripple him. The Flash recognizes their code of honor, and is kind enough to let them get their licks in, to travel at 'less-than-a-speeding-bullet' speeds while fighting them, which also exercises his ability to think and come up with scientific solutions mid-fight. An ability which some might argue is irrelevant when one has the ability to attack one's opponents at sufficient velocity, but an ability that has nontheless defeated gods in the past.

So, less a dumb behavior and more of a conditioned behavior.


While I agree with everything everyone's said about how the way Deathstroke went about disabling GL is a legitimate strategy, I will also add that Deathstroke was covering Dr. Light at that point. I imagine Deathstroke took him aside and, having known him during their time fighting the Teen Titans and known that beforehand he was a fight-the-A-list-Justice-League-at-the-same-time level threat, coached him on how to take out the members of the JL that he couldn't handle while he kept them busy and their attention off him. While it's not canon, I like to think Light only failed to jump in because of his lobotomy, and only regained his memories because Deathstroke managed to slap some of them back into his head before the fight.

if he ever caught wind of her within an AU of anything he cared about.

I love this expression. Kudos to you, it really is perfect. Within an AU of anything he cared about. Perfect. Love it.

I'd put money on Lynne winning a fight with Granny Goodness. Amanada Waller managed it once. New Gods come at varied power levels, and while she and Desaad are high in Darksied's hierarchy, I'm fairly certain it's because of what they can do, not how powerful they are physically.

So, that was a thing. I really was not expecting Grayven & Jade to break up like that. That was supposed to be the one area where Renegade had more success then paragon. Still, looking forward to seeing how this develops.

Worst case scenario: Jade pulls the same stunt she did with Roy, cutting off all ties and going into hiding until their baby is born. Then, having had nine months to think about this, she goes back to the Mountain to see if she can't talk things through with her old ex. Only problem is, Misa is the only one home when she knocks on his door, and seeing a threat to her claim on her Master, she promptly kills Jade (or she hunts Jade down and kills her before she thinks about fixing things with Grayven, thus dying without ever forgiving him. Not sure which would be sadder). Misa finds herself unable to kill her master's son and so delivers the babe to grandpa Darksied, who lets Granny Goodness raise the child.

Even in this worst case scenario, there's still the opportunity for a Grayven or Lynne Apokalips Rescue Mission arc. And since Grayven's still a rational being, I doubt he wouldn't realize how unhealthy a relationship between him and Misa would be, so that won't happen. Unless Zoat goes full G.R.R. Martin on us, then anything he writes (concerning his relationship with Jade, at least) will be better then this scenario. A comforting thought.
 
Since when is Deathstroke baseline human? Besides, they designed the environmental shield for space, which has different requirements. Also also, if memory serves (although if someone can find proof otherwise, I'll concede), Ganthet literally made Kyle's ring last-minute (including removing the yellow impurity), so I could also buy that he just didn't have time to made it up to the par of all the other rings.
Well he is stronger than baseline, but it's not comparable to the level of pressure deep undersea. Anyway if the ring was malfunctional I guess it could make sense, still, DC has a huge tendencies to worf the shit out of lanterns, so I tend to attribute a lot of their losses to that.
 
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