Uh...comic books?
With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Twelve)
- Thread starter Mr Zoat
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TheLastOne
Person of impeccable tastes (for destruction)
What does starting a nuclear exchange benefit either the Demon cult in Britain or SHADE? It would cost them far more than they would gain.
Presumably it would create a chaotic enviroment of fear and distrust that would undermine effort to root them out(U.K.), and might let them directly seize the reins of power (Shade). It the literally nuclear option when it looks like you're going to be rooted out and destroyed anyways. Flip the entire board and change the nature of the game.
Once you have a total war situation you can justify doing a lot of things with little to no explanation.
It's a dumb idea, but comics.
Assuming of course that MAD doesn't wipe them out.
Anyway, I'm wondering if Horn isn't about to try to dismantle SHADE by publically outing them and affirming they aren't government sanctioned. Sure it wouldn't kill the core of the group, but we already know a significant portion thinks they're a legit part of the government
How?
They are staring annihilation in the face, having made a grab for ultimate power and fallen short, with the loss of a major agent and exposure of many of their hidden assets and capabilities.
As a reminder, SHADE just made a grab at subverting the chief executive of a major superpower.
And the demon cult boys were complicit, and deployed British government agents in support on US soil.
Countries get freedomized for less.
Even nations with no love for the US tend to look down on NGOs that have a track record of subverting their hosts.
Nuclear war or alien invasion is literally their only hope for survival on Earth now; throw up so much chaos that the opposition is too preoccupied to hunt them.Or might miss them in the chaos.
Because with a stabl-ish world, you have the organized might of multiple world powers dedicated to rooting them out root, tendril branch and tentacle using every resource available: magical, mundane and metahuman.
Alternatively, they could flee the planet.
Assuming they have offworld backers who are understanding about failure.
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- Location
- madison
you know, It just occurred to me if the president makes an address calling SHADE a rogue agency and explaining how they hide in paper work, it would cripple shade's information network overnight. their plants think there pay checks say shade as a paperwork thing, if it becomes common knowledge that SHADE is rogue most agents would turn on them. It would also cut off a possibly huge source of their funding since no one is going to buy SHADE classes on dealing with metahumans when it comes out they are supervillans. SHADE is about to take a rater severe blow.
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It's more likely to destroy their power base (England) when the incoming nukes hit, assuming they survive the blasts themselves. England doesn't have enough warheads to wipe out the US and most (all?) of them are targeted on the old soviet block. It would take considerable time to reprogram them and it assumes that the launch officers will blindly follow orders to launch on a friendly (and much bigger) nation. At best it would result in the rest of Europe jumping on England to stop the obviously insane leadership from trying to nuke anyone else. For the Demon cult, starting a nuclear exchange is a lose-lose senario.
As for SHADE firing them off, the vast majority of the missiles are aimed at Russia and China. There's certainly none aimed at US territory (again, need time to calculate new flight plans and blindly obedient minions to input them). A limited launch is likely to be stopped by the Justice League while a large scale launch causes Russia and China to fire because the expect the missile to be coming their way. In a full on nuclear exchange there won't be any reins of power left to seize, not to mention there's not much point to ruling a wasteland.
Assuming of course they survive the chaos."Well, we thought we were in a bad position so we started a nuclear war to cover our tracks. In the resulting chaos, most of our core leadership managed to escape and survive, but we basically destroyed the prize we were trying to capture, so we can't say we won."
- Location
- Oblivion
Grayven and his allies just kidnapped and brainwashed a US president.
Or at least that's how Shade will probably frame it, and it's a plausible enough story that the League will have to call in a Telepath and the Free's to check him for any type of metal control.
TheLastOne
Person of impeccable tastes (for destruction)
That would depend on your standards of 'winning.' The Britten faction is magic based, SHADE is super based. Neither need a lot of existing infrastructure. In a choice btween losing everything and living in the Fallout wastelands, they might very well see the latter as acceptable.
Lubaf
Cat in a washing machine in space?
- Location
- Here
You forget that the Justice League (who WILL be investigating this[1]) has reliable truth detectors (from Wonder Woman's Lasso, forex). If Wonder Woman and Martian Manhunter say "Graven hasn't done anything more to Horne than talk and rescue him from somebody claiming to be SHADE-affiliated; we checked, there's no kidnapping, no brainwashing", disbelieving them would require them in on the conspiracy, and at that point your theory is getting too big to be believable.
[1] If I were Graven, I'd suggest involving the JL to at least confirm that "Paragon" didn't do anything... untoward while he had Horne.
Remember, one of the reasons for the founding of The Light was because nobody could go against the whole Justice League directly and succeed, and kidnapping the President in order to replace him with a stooge gets you put on the Justice League's High Priority List, a place most sane people don't want to be.
Thanks
Luc "Subtly Obvious" French
SHADE is a rogue operation operating without government control. They don't have a lot of weight behind their accusations.
So I started wandering around the comic book wiki again, and apparently the leader of Shade is Father Time, who at one point died and was reincarnated as a "a Japanese elementary schoolgirl, complete with a 'sailor fuku' uniform".
So Shade is being run by a reincarnated magical girl, basically.
Oh comics.
(Normally this is the part where Zoat shows up and says that this isn't canon for Earth-16, but I kinda hope this time he doesn't.)
So Shade is being run by a reincarnated magical girl, basically.
Oh comics.
(Normally this is the part where Zoat shows up and says that this isn't canon for Earth-16, but I kinda hope this time he doesn't.)
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- Location
- Oblivion
First they are going to have to prove that the lasso is an effective counter to any possible method of control Grayven might have employed. And do so to the satisfaction of the Secret Service, the various federal organizations, and congress.
Something which due to the arcane nature of Anti-Life known to be used by the forces of Apokolipse and the unknown nature of the lasso's effectiveness against people it's been used on would still require the Free's showing up to go over the President with their Mother Box.
Then you are going to have to convince everyone involved to let the President go under under the Lasso. Which is something that will be easier said then done since it's a method of mind control in and of itself. So even just going under it would risk replacement and or impeachment for him.
And of course since all this will take months due to bureaucracy the Vice President will probably be taking over while the investigation into whether the President is compromised or not occurs. Since it's just too important and dangerous of an issue to just assume he is not until proven otherwise.
Also
Those guys are getting fired, because they didn't even demand a presidential authorization code before accepting his orders.
Even in Real Life they usually require that sort of thing, and this is in a world with entire races of proven shapeshifters and robot impersonators.
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I'm fairly sure that all major powers have nukes aimed at all other major powers, just as a matter of course. Even if not, someone REALLY should check upon Russian government. Because if it was me? I'd go after both Russia and USA. Also China, if I had enough agents.
Empiricist2
Let's play doctor!
- Location
- Baton Rouge
Also of note, it's pronounced HE-bert, not AYY-bear. There's a point where a racist calls Skitter a "Heeb", and she briefly freaks out that they knew who she was, but quickly realizes that it was slang for Hebrew (she has curly hair). This wouldn't have happened if her name was pronounced the normal way.
He starts with the premise that Grayven is wrong, and that everything will be terrible for him, then works backwards from there.
Kinda doubt it. Unless Grayven come forward with the evidence against the British government soon, they will likely scapegoat a few lone agents for any association with SHADE.
Ah yes, the shady organization relying on all that goodwill and trust they've built up recently. Really gonna mean a lot against the word of the guy who they trust enough to allow deadly weapons near an unprotected president.
An x-ionised
Turn and make
The agents look
Horne holds
- Location
- United States
You'll just keep digging and digging until you can find something that will get everyone to suddenly realize that Grayven is the Antichrist and must be killed won't you?
They have ALREADY lost England.
The moment they moved against an Apokoliptian New God's power base and the US President and lost, it was all over bar the shouting.
Grayvy has a reputation in-universe for being able to play the politicial game, from his blackmailing the UK MP with knowledge of royal family shenanigans, to how he sponsored political ads against the US politicians who softballed Count Vertigo.
There is a reason why when they attempted to disappear Grayvy, they simultaneously attempted to decapitate his power base on US soil; they realize the stakes they were playing for. That's also why they went all out in distracting the Justice League at the same time.
This is kinda the only chance they have of survival period, barring someone like the Reach taking a hand in keeping them alive.
The Justice League distractions would have attracted enough adverse attention as it was, and their only hope would have been to use the power of the United States to shield themselves. Now they have the United States government, the Justice League, and Grayvy coming for them, and neither the US nor Grayvy really care about political borders or legal niceties.
Not to mention that the Light will be looking to strip off any interesting assets they can reach without attention.
And they lost their Superman/Martian Manhunter equivalent.
Look at what happened to Ra's/the League of Shadows over in the Paragonverse for some idea what happens to shady groups that draw too much attention while losing their power base.
*sigh*
Her testimony and that of her lasso were established in-story to be admissible in court as far back as when OL arrested the writer-rapist.
And there are both other telepaths, as well as mages and technology that will be used to double check.
They can even request Green Lanterns check.
Or has any reason to believe that Grayvy has access to Anti-Life.
Wonder Woman is renowned and respected, and there are other modalities that can be used for screening, from Green Lanterns to magicians to telepaths.
Reagan did it when he went for surgery; so did both both G.W.Bush and H.W.Bush.
On Earth-16?
Medical checkup by doctor; scans by mages and telepaths, all of whom the US govt has access to, and who can crosscheck each other.
Done.
If he's under mind control, odds are whatever method used can riffle through his mind and pick any codes.
Furthermore, there is a fucking Yellow Lantern right there vouching for him; you can't shoot him while Lantern force fields are available, so why are you antagonizing him?
Offscreen, where the Yellow Lantern New God is NOT PRESENT.
Wonder Woman has been operative here since World War 2.
Her testimony and that of her lasso were established in-story to be admissible in court as far back as when OL arrested the writer-rapist.
And there are both other telepaths, as well as mages and technology that will be used to double check.
They can even request Green Lanterns check.
No one in the US government knows dickall about Anti-Life besides what Grayvy has told them and other superheroes.
Or has any reason to believe that Grayvy has access to Anti-Life.
See above.
Wonder Woman is renowned and respected, and there are other modalities that can be used for screening, from Green Lanterns to magicians to telepaths.
Dude, that's rubbish.
Even IRL, there is established precedent for handling temporary incapacity of US Presidents due to health or incompetence.Article: The Twenty-fifth Amendment, ratified in 1967, clears up many of the issues which surrounded presidential succession and incapacity. Section 1 made it clear that in the event of a vacancy in the office of President, the Vice President succeeds to the office, while Section 2 established a procedure for filling Vice Presidential vacancies.
Pertinent text of the amendment
Section 3. Whenever the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that he is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, and until he transmits to them a written declaration to the contrary, such powers and duties shall be discharged by the Vice President as Acting President.
Section 4. Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.
Thereafter, when the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that no inability exists, he shall resume the powers and duties of his office unless the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive department or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit within four days to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office. Thereupon Congress shall decide the issue, assembling within forty-eight hours for that purpose if not in session. If the Congress, within twenty-one days after receipt of the latter written declaration, or, if Congress is not in session, within twenty-one days after Congress is required to assemble, determines by two-thirds vote of both Houses that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall continue to discharge the same as Acting President; otherwise, the President shall resume the powers and duties of his office.
Reagan did it when he went for surgery; so did both both G.W.Bush and H.W.Bush.
On Earth-16?
Medical checkup by doctor; scans by mages and telepaths, all of whom the US govt has access to, and who can crosscheck each other.
Done.
You might want to consider that they aren't fucking stupid.
If he's under mind control, odds are whatever method used can riffle through his mind and pick any codes.
Furthermore, there is a fucking Yellow Lantern right there vouching for him; you can't shoot him while Lantern force fields are available, so why are you antagonizing him?
Which is why he'll be due for a medical checkup.
Offscreen, where the Yellow Lantern New God is NOT PRESENT.
- Location
- Canada
See, I don't get why they have to prove anything while SHADE can just make wild claims and be taken at face value in your hypothetical scenario. The burden of proof would lies entirely with SHADE, not with Grayven.
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- Oblivion
What makes you think SHADE lost their power base?
While the plan to replace the president may have failed that's an end game sort of thing that you only do after you already have enough support in the other branches of the US government to utilize the presidents power. Something which was heavily suggested in story by the fact that they were even able to capture the President in the first place.
Because they just tried a coup d'etat and failed.
In the world's most powerful superpower.
There is a Category Five shitstorm coming their way, and they have no political or metahuman protection.
Noone will hide them or offer cover, and those whom the US government does not get, Grayvy will.
Look at what happened to the League of Shadows in the Paragonverse.
They got wiped out in less than a year, and that was just one Lantern periodically fucking with them; If OL had been less law-abiding, he could have wiped them out much earlier.
Grayvy has a functioning ring with a hypertech database, only respects the law as it is convenient, he has an actual organization dedicated to his whims, including a fuckpowerful telepath with a history of covert work.
And he has allies who are entirely in agreement with him about SHADE.
Furthermore, when SHADE moved at his kid, they made it personal, while making themselves acceptable targets by overtly moving against the US government. All that's going to be left of SHADE in the next six months is a smoking crater.
I mean, seriously, do you think SHADE attempted to replace the US President for shit and giggles?
Or that they exhibited their influence to distract the Justice League lightly?
They didn't survive this long by drawing public attention to themselves; the fact that they pulled this is a pretty clear desperation strategy.
Empiricist2
Let's play doctor!
- Location
- Baton Rouge
You see, you have to start your trial with the axiom "Grayven is guilty." Then, the defence must somehow disprove this axiom through the trial, which is difficult because Grayven being guilty and wrong is ontologically true. Therefore, because every possible method of verifying Grayven's innocence is thrown out because they dare challenge the sacred axiom, Grayven is proven guilty.
Really, the opposing counsel doesn't even need to do much besides kind of imply Grayven may have done something wrong at some point. Because Grayven is guilty, he's obviously guilty. Then they whip out all those dozens of radion blasters they have laying around, and execute him before the judge and jury. (The jury consists of a sticky note that says "Grayven is guilty.")
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- Earth, 3rd rock from the Sun
Without getting into whether the Demon Sex cult or Shade playing War Games® is Just Crazy Enough To Work™, or Just Plain Crazy™, did you learn nuclear button man procedure from cheesy 80's TV or something? Because there is a whole lot of dumb in that statement.
Most targets of an ICBM are big pieces of dirt that have been in the same place forever. The calculations were done decades ago. The military does not go "So we programmed this big expensive intercontinental ballistic missile with ONE targeting location! Lets stop there and all go get a beer!" they already have many, many possible targets programmed for each missile, all they have to do is tell the launch program which one to use when firing the rocket.
And that is probably done by the string of codes sent to the minute men. Which would NOT tell them who the target would be. All they would know would be there was a code relayed to them from a presumable authorized method (if SHADE has in fact infiltrated the nuclear system) and that they are supposed to turn the keys if the code is validated. They would not even know if this is a test or not. Because you use the same protocol for tests with dummy codes as for real codes that start WWIII, so they do not know if they are risking their career to actually stop Nuclear Winter, or just failing a "will they do their duty" test that just gets them reassigned and possibly prosecuted.
- Location
- Hampden Park
Guess who's out of luck.
Britain doesn't have all that many nukes.
Everyone of any significance in the Chinese hierarchy is regularly checked to make sure that they're not Durlans. It catches most other things too.
Thank you, corrected.
Nothing ever ends, drasteed.
I think I said way back that the Renegade ends up shouting at the Source Wall. Having given the matter some thought, I'm probably not going to end it right there, though it still happens. I don't think I said much else on the topic. Obviously, getting killed or critically anti-lifed ends the story.
I did not know that. What do those codes sound like?
Wonder Woman is certainly considered to be an extremely credible witness, but truth compulsion magic has no formal status in the US court system.
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aeqnai
Nerdy Homu
- Location
- Laniakea Supercluster
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Like something Vaer pulled out his ass, cus all internet sources seem to say they don't exist (unless he wants the President to identify himself by the nuclear launch codes)
- Status