The_Letter_K
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I dunno, Zoat. That sounds like a pretty typical super-origin to me.
With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Twelve)
- Thread starter Mr Zoat
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I dunno, Zoat. That sounds like a pretty typical super-origin to me.
rkyeun
Cabbitus Maximus
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- ◕ ‿‿ ◕
The light barrier, at least according to physics as we know it, simply CANNOT be forced. It's not a matter of adding more dakka to your engine until it works. As you get closer and closer to the speed of light, less of your expended energy goes into actually making you go faster, and all of it ends up going into increasing your apparent mass and inertia. An object with rest mass moving AT the speed of light should possess infinite kinetic energy. And since energy must be conserved you have to pay infinite energy up front to get to lightspeed. Which you don't have, or you would have collaped into a black hole because the Schwartzchild radius of infinity is, and I quote, "Omnomnom so much for that entire universe."
Roadie
A plate full of blins and a cat nearby.
"Brute forcing" lightspeed is literally impossible, because that's not how speed works.
The short version is that time and space are the same thing, and that, in the view of the overall time-space continuum, accelerating doesn't make you go "faster" - it just changes where along the range from time to space you're pointing.
An object at rest: all motion in time, no motion in space. Picture a line on an X/Y chart pointing straight up.
A photon: all motion in space, no motion in time. Picture a line on an X/Y chart pointing straight left or right.
If you go past either end of the scale, it doesn't make you any faster in space or time—it just flips into other parts of the same chart, either causing time travel or doing weird (and probably unsurvivable) shit like swapping around your space and time coordinates.
This is leaving out the part where getting an object with mass to the speed of light in the first place would take infinite energy, in which case you've just made the entire universe collapse into a black hole of infinite density.
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Empiricist2
Let's play doctor!
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- Baton Rouge
I've stepped out of this discussion because I've already said my piece, but I feel the need to step in here. I think you're misunderstanding the concept of a scientific theory. By definition, scientific theories cannot be proven to be true. A theory is an explanation for a certain set of facts, not a fact in itself. You can gather all the evidence in the world in support of it, but unless you are literally omniscient it doesn't make it true.
What you describe, testing something that relativity predicts, does not confirm the theory. It can be used as evidence in support of the theory, as it made a successful prediction, but loads of other theories can make the same prediction in this case but different ones in others.
To put it in engineering terms, but without knowing what type of engineering, imagine you have a certain set of data arranged in a scatter plot. You crunch some numbers, and come up with an equation where the R^2 line perfectly fits every data point to within the precision of your instruments. Is this equation true? To 100% certainty? No. It describes the data set you have pretty well, but there might be a different equation that gives the same predictions in your range but very different results farther outside the range. Testing more data points within the original range doesn't distinguish the predictive power of either equation.
Something that comes up later in the story?
I think the prevailing hypothesis is that he had a metagene that triggered and gave him a power with M'gann's shapeshifting as an inspiration. They obviously don't share the same mechanism, if for nothing else than that BB can't transform into anything but animals.
Winged One
Not the Simurgh
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- definitely the ground
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Like moving the moon by wanting to do so really hard?
Roadie
A plate full of blins and a cat nearby.
If you can go faster than light by wanting real hard, then the natural laws that govern that action don't work like the real world.
If you can move the moon by wanting real hard, then the natural laws that govern that action don't work like the real world.
You may notice a connection between these two things. You may also notice that Mr Zoat's post implies he wants to have the natural laws that govern the speed of light (absent special technology like hyperdrives, boom tubes, etc) work like those of the real world.
- Location
- Oulu
Special relativity could be wrong in DC 16. Doesn't mean general relativity is.
Not that I properly understand either. I thought your clock was a function of your acceleration, not your speed?
But, indeed, speed of light.
So, A and B travel to opposite directions at near-lightspeed. From the point of view of B, A is near time-stop, and from the point of view of A, B is near time-stop? Is this correct?
So, with FTL, someone from A travels to B, whom, from the point of view of A, has only progressed in time very little, while a longer amount of time has passed for A. However, from the point of view of B, only few moments have passed for A, so the person arriving from A would seem to arrive from the future?
And that's the whole FTL, Causality, Special Relativity - pick any two issue? Of course, time travel is possible in DC 16, so I guess they may have just dropped causality.
How would this correlate with an alcubierre drive, which would allow for FTL?
Not that I properly understand either. I thought your clock was a function of your acceleration, not your speed?
But, indeed, speed of light.
So, A and B travel to opposite directions at near-lightspeed. From the point of view of B, A is near time-stop, and from the point of view of A, B is near time-stop? Is this correct?
So, with FTL, someone from A travels to B, whom, from the point of view of A, has only progressed in time very little, while a longer amount of time has passed for A. However, from the point of view of B, only few moments have passed for A, so the person arriving from A would seem to arrive from the future?
And that's the whole FTL, Causality, Special Relativity - pick any two issue? Of course, time travel is possible in DC 16, so I guess they may have just dropped causality.
How would this correlate with an alcubierre drive, which would allow for FTL?
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Oh wow, really? Comicbook physics has little-to-nothing in common with IRL Physics when you look even slightly beneath the surface? This is exciting new information that is in no way common knowledge to literally everyone.
Sarcasm aside, it should super obvious than IRL physics issues don't apply to anything in the DC universe, given all the absurd bullshit they come up with.
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Roadie
A plate full of blins and a cat nearby.
Now go back and read the last sentence of the post you quoted.
- Location
- Canada
Or, or (and I know this could be surprising), it's all comic book logic and none of it is supposed to make sense if you look too deeply! So maybe this thread can put back on tracks now?
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Hampsterpig
I write stuff.
- Location
- Somewhere in my own head
Well, all this space-time discussion, so I dug up a video on it that gave me a head ache the last time I watched it. Enjoy. Now maybe let's get back on topic?
What is the worst case senario of Paul going up the chain of command to address all this racism?
Can M'Gann do the Fire Martian trick or only cancel it out like she did in the Oa ship?
Did M'Gann ever teach her uncle the anti-Fire Martian technique?
What are Martian courting policies and does Kon know any of them? Is he expected to enter mental combat with M'Gann's father as a show of strength?
- Location
- Earth, 3rd rock from the Sun
Accurately Judging the nature of time by human perceptions will always cause problems. You are trying to argue that both Lex's perspective and the Earth's are equally valid perspectives, and thus a paradox if FLT exists. This is the crux of the problem. It would be more accurate to say they are both equal in their inaccuracy.
Using special relativity to say FTL is impossible runs into the problem same problem every other model of physics we have had. The model breaks down at the edges and you start mistaking the map for the territory. Special Relativity is only the most resent in a line of models of reality, and was never made to prove or disprove FTL travel, it is just an implication of the equations. Newtons work also said things at the edges that were later proven false.
I am not arrogant enough to assume that the current model be have is the one that just happened to hit the nail on the head exactly, and got all the edge cases correct. It would be safer to assume that reality does not work exactly as it says, and some of the assumptions that have been made, but are not impracticable to falsifyably test are wrong.
The notion that matching Lex's momentum means time travel is ludicrous. If Lex had invented a teleported on his space ship himself 45 of his days in, and immediately teleported back home, years would have passed there, because it was going at slower speed and faster time increments then Lex was. all changing momentum would do is change how quickly or slowly time is passing for you going forward, but the time that has already passed, has already passed, at whatever speed that was. There is no going back.
- Location
- texas
That's complicated.
It was revealed that humans were supposed to evolve into kryptonian like beings, but the white martians mucked with human evolution to instead give the metagene.
Of course humanity had already existed for about 180,000 years at this point, so perhaps what was intended was that the proto-metagene would activate when someone was in danger or whatever and everyone would get kryptonian style powers despite their origins. Hit by lightning? Flying brick. Hit by a bus? Flying brick. Bathed by eldritch radiation because a lovecraftian deity came to borrow some sugar? Flying brick.
Later, the people of Atlantis were altered by all the magic energy floating around, creating homo magi. Despite being named like they are a different species, there might not actually be a single genetic difference between magi and muggles, it might be more along a difference in souls like how Zoat made the difference between new gods and humans.
In Zenobrood, a more obscure dc work, it was revealed that the alien Vimanians had their organic crystal androids mate with pre-homo sapiens hominids intending to create an entire planet of superslaves.
In Swamp Thing, the title character met the Cancer God, who claims that he's been manipulating evolution on Earth since life first spawned on the planet.
With the previous talk about Alpha Centauri I'm now picturing Grayven getting the "merge with planet ending," just in a more of the Thing way.
Then there's that bit about humanity being the New God's successors, which I don't really know much about, but the Super Young Team is supposed to be the new "incarnation" of the forever people, at least two humans apparently knew the anti-life formula instinctively, also the New Gods empowered a neanderthal, who has who knows how many descendants in the modern day, including the superheroine Bulleteer.
Likewise a Controller gave a prehistoric man superpowers to defend Earth against Mageddon, although whether he had any children or if what was done to him was in any way inheritable wasn't discussed.
Speaking of human evolution, there's an interesting little tidbit from the Human Race comic- an alien came to Earth with a virus capable of entirely rewriting DNA, such that even those who survive don't qualify as human anymore. Paracelsus, a former member of that secret society, apparently feels that humans are obsolete and seeks to hasten the replacement of humanity with xenovirus survivors. I could just imagine Wally mentioning "So he's OL, but EVIL."
Edit- And in one origin of Atlantis, Atlantis was founded by the aliens who hunted the dinosaurs to extinction, the Hunter/Gatherers, who apparently mated with humans and possibly other species as well.
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rkyeun
Cabbitus Maximus
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- ◕ ‿‿ ◕
No. This isn't about human perceptions. It doesn't matter if you have a VR headset on, are boosted on drugs, or are an orange cat. What matters is your relative velocity and your distance. That's not a mere perception.
Both Earth's and Lex's reference frames, are equally valid because neither gets to be a privileged position.
Except that's wrong. Now you're using your human perspective, and expecting it to still apply after transitioning to a different reference frame. YOU say three years have passed, and in a reference frame stationary relative to Earth before your first FTL jump, you're right. But standing on Lex's ship, and looking back from there after doing FTL (and throwing away Lex's three years of travel time) to get there, you're wrong. And just to prove it, Lex isn't magically three years older just because you showed up.
So the Earth also won't be magically three years older when Lex, who says it's only two days older (or forty-seven with his own forty-five added to it) FTLs back with you. By the exact same FTL method you just used to ignore three lightyears of distance (in a frame stationary relative to Earth) on your way in and match velocites with him, he gets to ignore three years of time (thanks to his frame moving near lightspeed relative to Earth) and match velocities with Earth on your way back. You should have had to spend enough time traveling at STL to make ends meet, but you didn't, because you have FTL. The net result of those two operations is that you ignored both the three years of time on your way to Lex, and the three years of distance on the way to Earth. Putting you back on Earth where you started. And back three years ago when you started.
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Empiricist2
Let's play doctor!
- Location
- Baton Rouge
I hope that before he does anything to address it, he takes some time to actually study it.
"Guys, racism isn't coolio."
"Oh ok we didn't know."
Doesn't make for a compelling episode. I assume Zoat has added more depth to it.
- Location
- Somewhere out there
This is probably accurate. Should FTL ever exist on Earth Prime, it's probably going to be by not taking the path light would take instead of outrunning it.
Comic book time also tends to assert the existence of a privileged background frame, so physics doesn't really work the same as Earth Prime anyway.
Between these two points, you're actually writing it RIGHT instead of trying to finagle something crazier.
Are zeta tubes FTL, or just lightspeed?
Alcubierre drives still have all of the same timeline issues as other forms of FTL travel, but you just get the perk that your local spacetime is flat so it's a more comfortable trip. That said, no one has ever established how to create the Alcubierre bubble even in theory; the drive is just a hypothetical possibility given a particular solution to the spacetime metric, and it only asserts that such a bubble could hypothetically exist.
Hampsterpig
I write stuff.
- Location
- Somewhere in my own head
Oh definitely, I'm just thinking that a few stuck-up Reds or Greens might see his attempts at fixing the problem as an slow-burn plan to bring the Whites to power, with the high-level telepath and shapeshifter M'Gann as their leader. Get some suspicious thoughts bouncing around Mars, who knows what mob mentality is like in a race of telepaths?
rkyeun
Cabbitus Maximus
- Location
- ◕ ‿‿ ◕
Probably like a communicable disease.
⁑Diluting medicine that causes a symptom in water and shaking it cures the disease that causes the symptom! And the more dilute it is, the more potent the cure!⁑
⁑Are you okay, friend? That looks infected. Have you cleansed your mind of irrational thoughts recently?⁑
⁑No, see, I tried it and felt better!⁑
⁑You know that to be the causation-correlation fallacy and selection bias.⁑
⁑Oh. Man, you're right. I should see a doctor and get a booster shot of my antidogma vaccemes.⁑
⁑And wear a mindmask. You might infect others.⁑
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- Location
- Earth, 3rd rock from the Sun
Why am I imagining you stroking a white kitty while saying this? Like having everyone just accept Kon's baldness as the new normal is part of your master plan or something...
When everyone is special, no one will be. If the Reds are like those who hold to power with an iron grasp everywhere, then they would be very afraid that if the have not's stop being have not's, then the haves will necessarily stop being haves.
Wow. You seem to be trying to be insulting. And showing examples that are not related to the topic under discussion.
This all started talking about effectively FTL instantaneous Teleportation, and the wikipedia article you linked first talked about physically going faster than light, and then a wormhole where you do not see time dilation on the other side to create time travel. Neither of those would be the case with teleportation.
No, I I am expect each person and thing to have aged the amount they aged, no more, no less.
No, I say 3 years have passed on Earth, where I was.
What does looking back have to do with anything?
No Lex has had much less time pass at every time increment I experienced, or I had much more time pass at every time increment Lex experienced. Whichever you like.
This is where you stop making sense. Time goes forward, it always goes forward, just because Earth got more seconds out of it, and Lex got less, they both have been going forward in time, and are both in the present. When we teleport from wherever Lex is, going as a high percentage of C to where Earth is, going far slower, then there we will be, still in the present. The time that has passed has past in past. From Earth's perspective Lex has only aged 45 days since they parted. From Lex's perspective everyone on Earth has aged 3 years since they parted.
The_Letter_K
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And can you imagine how much more annoying Glee club could be when they can actually spread their ear worms like a virus? *shudder*
On the flip side, Martians probably don't have mimes, so who can say who has the superior society?
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Empiricist2
Let's play doctor!
- Location
- Baton Rouge
FTL. M'gann and a few others went to Rann in season 2. No way they could make the trip there and back without it being FTL. But that's still not a FTL drive, it only allows you to get to places you've already set up the infrastructure to teleport to. Or at least as far as we've seen.
Okay here's white M'gaan.
Had to switch her to the stealth coloring because that white shirt made it look funky.
Had to switch her to the stealth coloring because that white shirt made it look funky.
rkyeun
Cabbitus Maximus
- Location
- ◕ ‿‿ ◕
You keep trying to bring in yourself as the unbiased observer, and it was perhaps my fault for having the Earth be at rest, to give the illusion of there even being such a thing. Very well, you shall now be an unbiased observer.
BrambleThorn is in a spaceship. This spaceship is at rest relative to BrambleThorn. BrambleThorn is just hanging out in deep space, minding his own business.
The Earth, along with the rest of the Milky Way Galaxy, is flying towards BrambleThorn at nearly lightspeed relative to the Bramblestar. In particular, the Earth itself will collide with him in the near future. It appears to be bright blue, squashed like a coin, and aging very rapidly, because it is very blueshifted due to its approach and the light from all eras of its time are squashed together. Not wanting to be sideswiped by a relativistic planet, BrambleThorn activates his phase inducer and remains safely phased for the fractional instant it takes for the planet to fly through him. He continues to sit there minding his own business.
At the moment it does, Lex takes off in his near-lightspeed rocket and flies in the opposite direction, with a near-lightspeed velocity that just happens to be the right one to keep the Bramblestar equidistant between the Earth and Lex's ship.
But there is an accident, and the mirrorworld prism clones both the planet and Lex, sending the extra copies in different directions as well, leaving them phased such that the clones can't see or interact with the originals. Not without a phase discriminator, which only BrambleThorn's telescopes have.
BrambleThorn now sees Earth-1 and LexBoosterV-1 departing from him in opposite ways, with Earth-1 accompanied by LexBoosterV-2 and vice versa. They still appear much the same age as when they first passed through him, since the light is stretched apart. The two also appear dimmer, still coin-squished, and redder.
BrambleThorn settles down for a long, long wait with telescopes. Over the eons, he watches through his telescope a clock on the LexBoosterV-1 and LexBoosterV-2 as it ever so slowly counts away the seconds. When he sees that clock reach forty-five days, a strange thing happens. He sees an Orange Lantern appear in the cockpit. And looking back towards Earth he sees... the same guy, but not yet an Orange Lantern. Because it's only been forty-five days by that clock, not three years. Earth-1's, Earth-2's, LexBooster-1's, and LexBooster-2's clocks are all in agreement on this. And because they are phased into the same space as the LexBoosterVs, that means the Pauls just arrived on opposite Earths at that day forty-five by those clocks. Three years before he got his power ring. Sure enough, BrambleThorn keeps his telescope pointed at the Earth clocks, and when the Earth clocks say three years, a pair of power rings show up to land on the Pauls, and they disappear to begin their FTL trips.
Edit: Corrected a Lorentz contraction derp. Flying away doesn't stretch you like a needle as I originally said, you stay squished like a coin along the axis of apparent motion. To get stretched like a needle you need to fall into a steep gravity well.
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Winged One
Not the Simurgh
- Location
- definitely the ground
- Pronouns
- They/Them/It
As Zoat isn't writing this story with the FTL=time travel theory being a thing, aren't these attempts to explain wtf it is off-topic?
- Location
- Somewhere out there
Your description is accurate for subluminal travel. In fact, that phenomenon has to be explicitly taken into account in GPS -- there is, in fact, a real-world everyday application of the theory of relativity in your common smartphone. (Honestly, that's pretty mindblowing.)
It actually doesn't matter. ANY means of traversing between two reference frames introduces temporal anomalies. Teleportation is just travel at infinite speed. The concepts don't break down, and the result is consistent regardless of what mechanism you use to get from point A to point B.
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