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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Twelve)

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Lordamnesia said:
He can. We just don't see it, because most of the time when we see him 'seeing' the colors of peoples words, it's in combat and well, sadness and happiness aren't the defining emotions during those times. Also, I'm pretty sure that it takes a really strong emotion for it to bleed through, so that's why most speech that we see is base color.
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False:
Mr Zoat said:
With empathic vision I can clearly see what he's feeling so I know full well that he's not angry. Oh, the colours don't tell me exactly what he's feeling by themselves -there's no colour for happiness, satisfaction or pride for example
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Empiricist2 said:
It's not that he's incapable of doing so, or at least I think, but the nine colors are how he interprets the raw data he gets from empathic vision. Alternatively, he's simply wrong about there being more than nine colors.
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This is definitely how I interpret it, it's not that they're not there, it's just that he subconsciously not looking at them because he hasn't associated the right color for the right emotion in a way he knows is true, he'd have to see that a happiness lantern is really the color teal for his subconscious to know what color represent it.
stsword said:
Perhaps the major colors are the "visible spectrum of emotion." Black lanterns could see emotion too, and they only saw the usual ones.
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I see that more as DC fiat, only having those colors made things easier, but being in a somehow rational story where you're not limited by your printer such issues should logically disappear.
Ellf said:
Well, Paul is male. Men biologically do not see as many variations in color as women. Typically. (You get some weird people who do, but this is mostly true.)
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He see them with his soul rather than his eyes, so that'd be a silly explanation, also having a name for recognizing a color is far more important anyway.
Mr Zoat said:
Well, he could be wrong. It's not like he knew anything about power ring creation at that point. Or it could be because that would be a pain for me to write.
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Not sure how it'd be a pain to write, but having non standard emotional lights just not be a thing makes my head hurts for what it means for the universe though (as in those emotions holding no spiritual weight).
 
Vaermina said:
Grayven only has a portion of the GLC database, it's Paul that has a full one due to taking the whole ring.
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No, Grayven did it out of nowhere so there were no specific defenses in place. His is marginally more complete.
Also, He had the Fatherbox data available at that time also, IIRC
Paul, the guardians knew about assimilation because of GL reports and Teeki, so they installed quick-delete data for the more sensitive stuff.

Mr Zoat said:
Yes. Also, the League has been doing some 'renovating' since Grayven jumped ship.
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Does this mean that if he had NOT jammed the Starro, it would have been able to go FTL? Has he considered just arresting the JL and turning them over to China for Sufficiently Advanced Stupidity that is effectively indistinguishable from Crimes Against Humanity?

Vaermina said:
Can't be sure how compatible or complete the Sinestro database would be given it came from a different dimension.
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Made by Kwardians. Assume very complete, if having a different focus then what the Guardians would focus on.

random_npc said:
I don't think joining the light counts as a petty grudge.
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As far as they know he left because he anticipated them having a stuck up the butt about Killing the Klarion and getting a pardon for it. Because they think their opinion should have more weight than the democratically elected leader of the U. S. of A. They assume he joined the light because they assume everyone who disagrees with them has to be a Bad Guy.

uju32 said:
they are not morons.
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*Cough* NABU *Cough*
 
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BrambleThorn said:
As far as they know he left because he anticipated them having a stuck up the but about Killing the Klarion and getting a pardon for it. Because they think their opinion should have more weight than the democratically elected leader of the U. S. of A. They assume he joined the light because they assume everyone who disagrees with them has to be a Bad Guy.
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The league does have its own Intel gather ability, the head of which explicitly sent gravyn to infiltrate the light. You can't really blame them for assuming graven has started working with supervillains when he has in fact started working with supervillains .
 
I have to wonder if "happiness" and "sadness" may not be suitable to make Lanterns out of.

Can you imagine a sadness Lantern? The more depressed he gets, the stronger his constructs are, to the point where he has to FORCE himself to not derive satisfaction from his own successes lest his constructs fail BECAUSE he's doing well. He wouldn't be able to work on a team -- not because the team would weaken him, but because he would weaken the team. I think even people with actual depression would quit the Sadness Lantern Corps because it would just be too much of a downer. Even the Gray Lantern Corps would have more success, because their Lanterns wouldn't care enough about it to bother leaving.

Happiness, meanwhile, derives power from contentedness and pleasure. The kinds of people who would make combat-worthy Happiness Lanterns are the kinds of people who enjoy fighting for its own sake. Anyone else would be at the peak of their power in the times when they need it the least. You can't be afraid of getting hurt; that's not happy. You can't be worried about losing; that's not happy. Then there's the temptation to do something ABOUT those problems... and then you'd be at risk of Happiness Lanterns wireheading, because that would set up a positive feedback loop -- use of power results in happiness, happiness results in stronger power...
 
Coda said:
I have to wonder if "happiness" and "sadness" may not be suitable to make Lanterns out of.
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That's the watsonian answer (but it's important to remember that hope, compassion and love aren't exactly suited for combat either), the doylist answer is simply that DC couldn't be bothered to make them, especially considering how little they usually use non-green ones.
 
GodKiller999 said:
Not sure how it'd be a pain to write, but having non standard emotional lights just not be a thing makes my head hurts for what it means for the universe though (as in those emotions holding no spiritual weight).
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Maybe non-standard colors are represented by wavelengths outside of the human visual spectrum? Since we can't conceptualize colors outside of those we can see, OL wouldn't notice those emotions in people's souls, and the text doesn't need to change color.
BrambleThorn said:
No, Grayven did it out of nowhere so there were no specific defenses in place. His is marginally more complete.
Also, He had the Fatherbox data available at that time also, IIRC
Paul, the guardians knew about assimilation because of GL reports and Teeki, so they installed quick-delete data for the more sensitive stuff.
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Assimilation is the ability that is unique to orange, data probing is presumably a function that any sufficiently advanced tech can do, so the Guardians most likely have security measures for that general case instead of just for OL.
Coda said:
The kinds of people who would make combat-worthy Happiness Lanterns are the kinds of people who enjoy fighting for its own sake.
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Happiness Lanterns would probably be extremely ill suited for combat, true, but like half of them are, and only one color actually specializes in combat. Lanterns can do other things than just fight.
Coda said:
Then there's the temptation to do something ABOUT those problems... and then you'd be at risk of Happiness Lanterns wireheading, because that would set up a positive feedback loop -- use of power results in happiness, happiness results in stronger power...
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Same is true of orange. Not saying it's not a problem, but it's a manageable problem.
 
GodKiller999 said:
That's the watsonian answer (but it's important to remember that hope, compassion and love aren't exactly suited for combat either), the doylist answer is simply that DC couldn't be bothered to make them, especially considering how little they usually use non-green ones.
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Compassion is harder, yes. As Indigo Paul demonstrated, you have to skew your perspective of the world to make that work. But Hope and especially Love are VERY suited for combat. Fighting for the love of another is a cause as old as storytelling itself. Fighting for a hope of a brighter future is just about as common. Fear mostly works because yellow rings can draw on OTHER people's fears.

... A Sadness Lantern operating on the same principles as Yellow would be TERRIFYING, when you look at it that way. Going out of their way to make everyone around them abjectly miserable.

Empiricist2 said:
Same is true of orange. Not saying it's not a problem, but it's a manageable problem.
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Orange doesn't have that problem NEARLY so badly -- obtaining something spells the end of wanting it, so that would apply some level of self-limitation to orange-based wireheading. It's negative feedback instead of positive feedback. You're not making yourself recursively greedier.
 
Empiricist2 said:
Maybe non-standard colors are represented by wavelengths outside of the human visual spectrum? Since we can't conceptualize colors outside of those we can see, OL wouldn't notice those emotions in people's souls, and the text doesn't need to change color.
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Derp, I had completely forgot about how use of non-standard color would mean Zoat would have to color the text for that specific emotion too. Personally I'd find it weird for human limitation to affect what colors he can see emotion wise, since it's his soul rather than his eyes that look at them.
Coda said:
Compassion is harder, yes. As Indigo Paul demonstrated, you have to skew your perspective of the world to make that work. But Hope and especially Love are VERY suited for combat. Fighting for the love of another is a cause as old as storytelling itself. Fighting for a hope of a brighter future is just about as common. Fear mostly works because yellow rings can draw on OTHER people's fears.
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But there's a difference between fighting for something and feeling it while fighting, sure you can want revenge because of love, but while executing said revenge you'd usually feel wrath.
 
GodKiller999 said:
Personally I'd find it weird for human limitation to affect what colors he can see emotion wise, since it's his soul rather than his eyes that look at them.
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He also can't do empathic vision in 360 degrees all around him, despite the ability not actually being tied to his eyes. I can totally see a lack of being able to conceptualize something means he can't see it.
 
Empiricist2 said:
He also can't do empathic vision in 360 degrees all around him, despite the ability not actually being tied to his eyes. I can totally see a lack of being able to conceptualize something means he can't see it.
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Truly? Didn't the ring allow him 360 degree vision anyway? He really hasn't experimented much with his empathic vision, so the limitations aren't obvious. It's not like the state of non-standard emotions matter anyway if they're never going to be used in story.
 
GodKiller999 said:
Truly? Didn't the ring allow him 360 degree vision anyway?
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Well, he's never mentioned seeing someone behind him with empathic vision, so it's fairly likely.

The ring can let him perceive any number of things, but he's never demonstrated the ability to use his empathic vision through that. Otherwise he could look into people's souls remotely. Empathic vision is an innate ability, so the ring can't really help with it.
GodKiller999 said:
It's not like the state of non-standard emotions matter anyway if they're never going to be used in story.
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While unlikely, Zoat might use the 'outside human vision' explanation, which opens up the possibility of more emotional lights.

I've always disliked the idea that the emotional lights extend to both edges of the human-visible color spectrum but no further. Why should a fundamental part of the universe line up so precisely with a spectrum range whose edges are essentially random? Even some Earth animals can see into different reaches of the EM spectrum. It's like if the average temperature of the universe happened to be exactly the optimal human core temperature.
 
Empiricist2 said:
Assimilation is the ability that is unique to orange, data probing is presumably a function that any sufficiently advanced tech can do, so the Guardians most likely have security measures for that general case instead of just for OL.
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This was something Zoat has spoken up on, when it came up before. Paul made his capabilities more apparent so the Guardians took more precautions. So even though Grayven took a lot longer, that did not mean he got less. (No, I do not have the quote handy, I just remember him saying something)

Mr Zoat said:
Actually, he can't. He can use his ring to sense fear, but that's an activated ability. The SI is the one with a strong empathic sense.
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What he was saying is that with the sensing ability and database of the ring, he should be able to tell what anyone is feeling from hormone levels, brain activity, temperature, moisture levels, and every other physiological and neurological tell that can be measured by what is perhaps the most sophisticated technological sensor array in existence that could be stuffed in a portable form.
 
Empiricist2 said:
I've always disliked the idea that the emotional lights extend to both edges of the human-visible color spectrum but no further. Why should a fundamental part of the universe line up so precisely with a spectrum range whose edges are essentially random? Even some Earth animals can see into different reaches of the EM spectrum. It's like if the average temperature of the universe happened to be exactly the optimal human core temperature.
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I dunno. The second you get Infrared and Ultraviolet lanterns, I start thinking Paranoia.

The Guardians are your friend. Friend Guardian wants you to be happy.
 
Empiricist2 said:
I've always disliked the idea that the emotional lights extend to both edges of the human-visible color spectrum but no further. Why should a fundamental part of the universe line up so precisely with a spectrum range whose edges are essentially random? Even some Earth animals can see into different reaches of the EM spectrum. It's like if the average temperature of the universe happened to be exactly the optimal human core temperature.
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For the sake of discussion, a counterpoint: The edges AREN'T random.

With few exceptions, nearly all life in the greater universe evolved to perceive roughly the same band of frequencies. Some might be a little broader or narrower, some might be a little higher or a little lower, but that general region of the spectrum is noteworthy for being particularly information-dense. Lower frequencies scatter more; higher frequencies tend to penetrate instead of reflecting. That humans are sort of uninterestingly average is a fairly common trope in general, so applying it to visual perception isn't really that out of place.

Furthermore, if the emotional spectrum IS somehow fundamental to the universe, then that's an ADDITIONAL pressure to evolve around that range, as well as a pressure among races who have discovered it to develop similar cultural associations with the visible color and its emotional resonance.

(The presence of indigo, on the other hand, IS rather random, as its positioning in the spectrum and the width of its band are both out of line with the six more primary colors.)

So basically, I'm saying that cause and effect are reversed from what you're suggesting.
 
Coda said:
Compassion is harder, yes. As Indigo Paul demonstrated, you have to skew your perspective of the world to make that work. But Hope and especially Love are VERY suited for combat. Fighting for the love of another is a cause as old as storytelling itself. Fighting for a hope of a brighter future is just about as common. Fear mostly works because yellow rings can draw on OTHER people's fears.

... A Sadness Lantern operating on the same principles as Yellow would be TERRIFYING, when you look at it that way. Going out of their way to make everyone around them abjectly miserable.


Orange doesn't have that problem NEARLY so badly -- obtaining something spells the end of wanting it, so that would apply some level of self-limitation to orange-based wireheading. It's negative feedback instead of positive feedback. You're not making yourself recursively greedier.
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Since this half debating dc canon, its worth pointing out that dc canon is that anyone with an orange ring goes crazy
 
Coda said:
For the sake of discussion, a counterpoint: The edges AREN'T random.
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Oh, I'm aware of why humans see in the range they do, and your description is accurate. What I'm saying is that the edges are essentially random, in the context of fundamental forces of the universe. If humans could see a bit further into the infrared, then regular red wouldn't be one of the edges. Or if we could see less into the higher energy part of the spectrum, violet might be the edge in that direction instead of indigo. As it is, the emotional colors span the entire human visual spectrum but no more.

As for the emotional lights influencing human evolution, I'm not sure I can see the mechanism. Aside from the rare magic user, I'm not sure in what scenario one of the emotional lights would actually manifest as actual light. [Emotion] magic doesn't seem to be common at all on Earth 16, and no one aside from those who had dealt with Lanterns seemed to even know what the emotional lights were.

Also, if the emotional lights did influence our evolution, would they have not also affected the evolution of every other species on Earth? Some other species can see into different reaches of the EM spectrum.
 
shepsquared said:
Since this half debating dc canon, its worth pointing out that dc canon is that anyone with an orange ring goes crazy
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DC canon is that anyone with ANY non-Green non-White ring goes crazy in some way or another; it's just different kinds of crazy. Orange-crazy (and indigo-crazy) is just a kind of crazy that normal humans find especially difficult to comprehend. People can kinda "get" how red-crazy or violet-crazy works. Blue-crazy is a kind of crazy that can be misinterpreted as virtue outside of context. Yellow-crazy is particularly insidious because it's INTENTIONAL instead of just a side effect.

Empiricist2 said:
Oh, I'm aware of why humans see in the range they do, and your description is accurate. What I'm saying is that the edges are essentially random, in the context of fundamental forces of the universe. If humans could see a bit further into the infrared, then regular red wouldn't be one of the edges. Or if we could see less into the higher energy part of the spectrum, violet might be the edge in that direction instead of indigo. As it is, the emotional colors span the entire human visual spectrum but no more.
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My point is that there's no particular significance to red and violet being the edges of the spectrum. The only one that really matters is that Green is in the middle and the rest spreads out from there. If there's an "infra-rage" or an "ultra-love" then I would imagine that they're not particularly universal in their visibility, just like infrared and ultraviolet.

In fact, the presence of Indigo suggests that the spectrum's curve ISN'T calibrated specifically to human eyesight because the high-frequency components are spaced closer together than the low-frequency ones. Maybe humans aren't very good at seeing love? It would explain a lot.

Empiricist2 said:
As for the emotional lights influencing human evolution, I'm not sure I can see the mechanism. Aside from the rare magic user, I'm not sure in what scenario one of the emotional lights would actually manifest as actual light. [Emotion] magic doesn't seem to be common at all on Earth 16, and no one aside from those who had dealt with Lanterns seemed to even know what the emotional lights were.

Also, if the emotional lights did influence our evolution, would they have not also affected the evolution of every other species on Earth? Some other species can see into different reaches of the EM spectrum.
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I'm not saying that the emotional lights influenced human evolution in specific. Humans are kind of a backwater, as potentially-spacefaring species go. I'm saying that in places where it IS more visible that they would comprise further pressure to have vision encompass it.

I'm also suggesting that the emotional spectrum represents some fundamental truths common across all species that have evolved emotional self-awareness, whether they're visible as light or not.

Basically, I'm saying that it isn't a coincidence that both the lights and the emotions fall inside a range that humans are capable of experiencing, but rather that the nature of the universe makes it to where most intelligent life would have them in common.
 
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Empiricist2 said:
Maybe non-standard colors are represented by wavelengths outside of the human visual spectrum? Since we can't conceptualize colors outside of those we can see, OL wouldn't notice those emotions in people's souls, and the text doesn't need to change color.
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Imagine if they were conceptualized some other way, though. Can't see the light of Sadness, so you get to taste the flavor of slightly turned milk. The color of Annoyance gets translated into a tinny wailing just on the edge of hearing.
 
Recall Rot Lop Fan, the Green Lantern who is a member of a blind species who thinks of the Green Lanterns as the "F-Sharp Bell Corps". It seems pretty clear to me that the colors are at least in part a matter of perception.

As for other emotions, they may well have just as much metaphysical force to them, but not be accessible by the same means.

Also, while searching I ran across a funny old Spacebattles thread on Rejected Lantern Emotions.
 
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