Chronicles of Nations - Civ Quest
- Thread starter Oshha
- Start date
- Original
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
Every single argument your making works just as well for my vote choice as yours. By the very nature of the gift she is choosing to give (we make the vote but its her decision) if we pick the bless our people forever more, she likely wouldn't. The bless the people that choose to pray to her one however is mine.
KnownParadox
Not a sphere
- Location
- Canada
All I know is that I want our Peoples thing to be Magic.
Full steam ahead become amazing at Magic. Sure we might be a but behind in some areas if we focus on magic, but then we're the ones other people call when they need to summon a rainstorm or lift a curse. And depending on how Magic works we might become the foremost source into the Gods, due to our research needing more God research to be better mages.
Full steam ahead become amazing at Magic. Sure we might be a but behind in some areas if we focus on magic, but then we're the ones other people call when they need to summon a rainstorm or lift a curse. And depending on how Magic works we might become the foremost source into the Gods, due to our research needing more God research to be better mages.
Seems more like...there is a point where a god transitions from a pattern of beliefs to a self aware pattern of beliefs with attributes ascribed to it by the worship base's average. It will react appropriately to these attributes changing, especially when such an attribute is considered important by the worship base.
We could probably change the appearance of a god if the god never had a depiction or gender identity, but one of the first things we did was to literally set her image in stone.
A god then is able to grow and change themselves over time. But small changes.
Hmm...okay convert to human metaphor:
-Initial Period: Toddler equivalent. The god EXISTS, and can do things, but the intent is debatable, its just doing what its instincts and preset mythos says it should. You can change it easily at this juncture without any retaliation(I mean unless its myth is something like an angry thunderer, in which case it'd probably smite you for catching its attention).
-Developing Period: Teenager equivalent. The god has become aware rather than a myth-automaton, but its identity beyond the portions set in myth is still in flux and being hashed out. It'd defend its core concept, but much of the rest isn't defined enough to be defended.
-Mature Period: Adult equivalent. The god has actual history of Me-time rather than what myth said it had. It can still change, but in minor ways. Learning a new skill in line with its themes won't be resisted, but making a war-god into a pacifist is going to be interpreted as an amputation without the right circumstances.
So hmm...like, we could probably change what the god exactly looks like(skin color, hair color, etc), especially as the old idols erode from weathering to remove details, but doing a forced sex reassignment on a god is going to go about as well as trying to do it to a person.
If you want some kind of unusual gender build you probably should start from anthromorphizing a natural force, in which case people have some dispute about whether its more masculine or feminine.
A Hero Deity's gender is a pretty big deal
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Knight Draco
Tea Sipping Advocate of the Devil
- Location
- North America
I dont see why she wouldn't if she is the one giving it to us.
- Location
- Southampton, Great Britain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Okay, so deities in this universe have significant, though not necessarily all encompasing, power and they will use said power violently to keep people from spreading heresy because the beliefs of humans can affect them in ways they would not enjoy. So they will essentially never change because they view any shift in belief as hostile to their being, causing them to aggressively stamp out said shift? And deities are more human than force of nature in their thinking, or is it specifically Arthryn?
If, in the future, people started offering Arthryn seashells to give them luck during their fishing trips, would she unleash her wrath because they're giving her power over the ocean, essentially rewriting her being? Do deities view their divine portfolio as part of their identity?
Also, thank you for answering my inane questions about the divinity of this fictional reality.
Veekie has the gist of it down. Deities have a period where they are initially shaped by belief until they have their own identity. Once they got their own identity and are tied to a concept or set of concepts, they can't be changed by mere belief and most will react poorly to attempts to change them not because they will succeed if they don't, but because of the attempt itself is being made. Your example of giving her sea shells won't offend her because it is just asking for her blessing and not trying to change her identity and very being. The suggested attempts to change her gender identity by a couple of posters would offend her if anyone in-universe was to try not due to it having any chance of success, but due to the nature of what they are trying to do. A deity is a person at that stage and like Veekie said, people don't react well to a forced sex reassignment even if it has no chance of actually working.
I would like to make it clear that once a deity reaches the Mature period in Veekie's deity lifecycle, the beliefs of the followers are no longer able to change the deity and any further change to the deity is due to the deity being a person and a person is able to change over time.
Yes and no respectively. Human belief can make create divine like it currently is, but there is a limited window of opportunity as once there is active deities running about, it is a lot harder to get more as the older ones can effectively kill the newer ones as they are still forming. Like an adult killing a baby in its cradle.
With changing what is already exists, the answer is no. Whales are already a thing and human belief can't change the world on its own so human belief about whales wouldn't change how they act. As to if it would create something else, I am going to say that is handled on a case by case basis, including with the creation of new deities.
[X] She granted wisdom and knowledge to shape the beliefs of the People.
Edit: Sorry I deleted the prior post, I did not realise Oshha had replied. Copying it again below.
If we have a mature period, do we have an "elderly" period after that? Like what sometimes happened to the "High God" of many belief systems, becoming increasingly distant/transcendent until they pass out of everyday belief altogether?
Edit: Sorry I deleted the prior post, I did not realise Oshha had replied. Copying it again below.
If we have a mature period, do we have an "elderly" period after that? Like what sometimes happened to the "High God" of many belief systems, becoming increasingly distant/transcendent until they pass out of everyday belief altogether?
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- Location
- Southampton, Great Britain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
No because deities are immortal and don't age like mortals such as humans do. They will hit the mature period and stay there until death. Deities can die, either by being slain or running out of People. For example, Arthryn will be tied to the People and as long as the People exist, so will she even if everyone stop believing in her and worshipping her. But should the People be wiped out and no more, Arthryn would die with them as the thing she is fundamentally tied to is no more.
Random Member
Gardener of Human Happiness
- Location
- Behind You
Murder the Gods and Topple Their Thrones, Reach Heaven Through Violence!
- Location
- Southampton, Great Britain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
That's a complicated pair of questions if you are talking about Arthryn specifically as due to her connection to the People, she is one of the harder deity to kill. When I say that a deity can be slain, I am referring to a fellow deity or another entity slaying the deity. That is rare enough to handled on a case by case basis.
The other way to kill a deity is to starve them to death by eliminating what they are a deity of them and what they draw power from. For a deity of a universal concept such love or war or death, you can't kill them this way due to their power sources being universal. A deity of a specific thing such as a deity of a mountain or a lake could be killed by starvation if the mountain or lake is destroyed.
With Arthryn specifically, she can be slain while the People still exist, but since she is tied to the People, she will just respawn if the People are still around. If the People are wiped out, Arthryn will starve to death unless she is able to get alternative way of sustaining herself.
Knight Draco
Tea Sipping Advocate of the Devil
- Location
- North America
Wait so which won?
Was it the devout or the bloodline
- Location
- Southampton, Great Britain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Blessing & Wisdom and Knowledge. Since it was a close vote between those two, I decided to go with both of them.
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Random Member
Gardener of Human Happiness
- Location
- Behind You
Does this atleast decrease the strength of the blessings somewhat? I certainly hope this isn't going to be a recurring thing.
- Location
- Southampton, Great Britain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Not really, mainly because there isn't really a strength to decrease or increase.
I can also assure you that this won't be a recurring thing simply because a situation like this will rarely occur.
- Location
- Leeds
Unless a significant precedent and incentive is given to control the votes into draws
Knight Draco
Tea Sipping Advocate of the Devil
- Location
- North America
It's not like I was considering doing that or anything.Unless a significant precedent and incentive is given to control the votes into draws
- Location
- Leeds
Of course not, what sort of terrible person would try and manipulate the system like that?
Certainly not the sort of upstanding citizen you'd find on this site.
...
Of course, cooincidences do happen. And if thats how Oshha wants to handle them we'd be churlish to say no wouldn't we?
Gift of Arthryn
- Location
- Southampton, Great Britain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] She blessed the People and their future generations using her power.
[X] She granted wisdom and knowledge to shape the beliefs of the People.
While only a few witnessed the Goddess in person and heard her words, all of the People felt her blessing and would hear what she had to say.
The elders and Arthryn's faithful were enough to ensure that Arthryn's words were know by all and none doubted the words of the goddess. Especially not when it was simply confirming what she had taught them in the past and reinforcing what the People already believed in.
The elders had already commanded them to look after the other members of the community and not to personally gain at the expense of fellow members of People. Such wisdom had been part of the People since the goddess had originally founded Greenbay village and now Arthryn had officially given it divine backing and commanded the People to follow it, something everyone was happy to do.
Value Upgraded!
Communal Mandate
As per the words of the goddess, loyalty and kindness to one's people is of the highest importance and even when times are tough or when it is not personally beneficial, one should stick by their community.
Pros: Reduced Internal Discontent, Increased Resistance to Foreign Intrigue,
Cons: Increase stability loss from taking actions which harm the People,
The blessing was different as it didn't require the mortal members of the People to inform each other and instead, every member of the People felt the effects at the same time.
The blessing was odd, but not unwelcome as while no member of the People had agreed to it, it was completely beneficial in nature. The sensation of the blessing was warmth as something within each member of the People was strengthen and reinforced by their goddess.
At first nobody knew what Arthryn had done as there were no visible indications or clues to reveal what she had changed, but as the seasons went on and winters would come and go, the People would soon begin to realise what the blessing had done.
It was a gradual thing and only those belonging to older generations had been around long enough to notice the differences. The People were naturally tougher and while they still got injured and ill, it happened less often and would recover quicker.
Some others claimed other differences, but it was hard to prove the claims of increased strength and speed and stamina. What some claimed was due to the blessing of the goddess, could easily just be the result of hard work and training.
The biggest change that happened was due to the new resilience of the People, it took longer for old age to claim those belonging to the People. The silver hair of an elder took longer to appear and the elders would begin to live for a few more winters than they had in past generations.
The exact nature of Arthryn's blessing remains unknown to the People, but none will deny that the People are better off for it.
Legacy Gained!
Chosen of Arthryn: Gain +1 to all Innovation Rolls,
You have two Secondary Actions. Two Secondary Actions make a single Main Action. No plan voting or write-ins.
Please tag actions as [SEC] & [MAIN].
The knowledge and wisdom option is upgrading a value. Sort of. There is much to upgrade Communal Compassion during this so it is pretty much doubling down on what is already there so not only the People less likely to cause internal problems due to human greed and selfishness, but Arthryn personally backing this value means that it is harder for the outsiders to cause disruption to the People.
The blessing is something like a racial change. That isn't quite accurate, but what has happened is that Arthryn has made so that the People have some racial bonus. They are still human, but are different the same way that human races in the Elder Scrolls settings are different like the Nords, Redguards and Imperials are different and have their own racial bonuses.
While this might matter on an individual scale, it is less significant on a civilisation scale as you are better off relying upon technology, education and cultural influences than any inherent racial bonuses. In this case, the only major civ scale effect is the +1 bonus to innovation rolls that you got from the Legacy.
The blessing itself is based off of Arthryn. From Vryn being a martial hero, the People have higher than average toughness, strength, stamina and resilience, which translates to better untrained fighters, greater resistance to diseases and injury and a natural longer lifespan. From Arth being an admin hero, the People are naturally more intelligent with a better head for numbers, better memories and being able to figure out things faster hence the mechanical benefit you get from the Legacy.
Another effect of the blessing is that the female members of the People will have a figure like Arthryn, which is to say larger chests and hips and an average waist.
[X] She granted wisdom and knowledge to shape the beliefs of the People.
While only a few witnessed the Goddess in person and heard her words, all of the People felt her blessing and would hear what she had to say.
The elders and Arthryn's faithful were enough to ensure that Arthryn's words were know by all and none doubted the words of the goddess. Especially not when it was simply confirming what she had taught them in the past and reinforcing what the People already believed in.
The elders had already commanded them to look after the other members of the community and not to personally gain at the expense of fellow members of People. Such wisdom had been part of the People since the goddess had originally founded Greenbay village and now Arthryn had officially given it divine backing and commanded the People to follow it, something everyone was happy to do.
Value Upgraded!
Communal Mandate
As per the words of the goddess, loyalty and kindness to one's people is of the highest importance and even when times are tough or when it is not personally beneficial, one should stick by their community.
Pros: Reduced Internal Discontent, Increased Resistance to Foreign Intrigue,
Cons: Increase stability loss from taking actions which harm the People,
The blessing was different as it didn't require the mortal members of the People to inform each other and instead, every member of the People felt the effects at the same time.
The blessing was odd, but not unwelcome as while no member of the People had agreed to it, it was completely beneficial in nature. The sensation of the blessing was warmth as something within each member of the People was strengthen and reinforced by their goddess.
At first nobody knew what Arthryn had done as there were no visible indications or clues to reveal what she had changed, but as the seasons went on and winters would come and go, the People would soon begin to realise what the blessing had done.
It was a gradual thing and only those belonging to older generations had been around long enough to notice the differences. The People were naturally tougher and while they still got injured and ill, it happened less often and would recover quicker.
Some others claimed other differences, but it was hard to prove the claims of increased strength and speed and stamina. What some claimed was due to the blessing of the goddess, could easily just be the result of hard work and training.
The biggest change that happened was due to the new resilience of the People, it took longer for old age to claim those belonging to the People. The silver hair of an elder took longer to appear and the elders would begin to live for a few more winters than they had in past generations.
The exact nature of Arthryn's blessing remains unknown to the People, but none will deny that the People are better off for it.
Legacy Gained!
Chosen of Arthryn: Gain +1 to all Innovation Rolls,
You have two Secondary Actions. Two Secondary Actions make a single Main Action. No plan voting or write-ins.
Please tag actions as [SEC] & [MAIN].
[] [SEC/MAIN] Build New Shrine = (Target)
S: -2 Temp Econ, +1 Shrine (+1 Mystic per 3 Shrines),
M: -4 Temp Econ, +2 Shrines (+1 Mystic per 3 Shrines),
-Possible Targets: Greenbay 1/1, Rockbay (0/1),
[] [SEC/MAIN] Create New Trails.
S: -2 Temp Econ, +1 Trail (1/2),
M: -4 Temp Econ, +2 Trails (1/2),
[] [SEC/MAIN] Explore Lands = (Target)
S: -1 Temp Econ, -1 Temp Martial, Chance of new discovery,
M: -3 Temp Econ, -2 Temp Martial, Improved Chance of new discovery,
-Possible Targets: Coastline, Coastal Plains, Forest, Lowlands,
[] [SEC/MAIN] More Farming.
S: +1 Temp Econ, Chance of Innovation,
M: -3 Temp Econ, +1 Econ (0/2) (Limited by number of Settlements), Chance of Innovation,
[] [SEC/MAIN] More Fishing.
S: +1 Temp Econ, Chance of Innovation,
M: +3 Temp Econ, Improved Chance of Innovation
[] [SEC/MAIN] More Hunting.
S: +1 Temp Econ, +1 Temp Martial, Chance of Innovation,
M: +3 Temp Econ, +2 Temp Martial, Improved Chance of Innovation
[] [MAIN] New Settlement = (Target)
M: -4 Temp Econ, -1 Temp Martial, +1 Settlement, +1 Econ,
-Possible Targets: Greenbay (1/12), Rockbay (1/12), Upriver Plains (0/12), Sunrise Bay (0/12), Sunset Plains (0/12), Sunrise Plains (0/12),
[] [SEC/MAIN] Trade Mission = (Target)
S: -1 Temp Econ, +1 Temp Diplo, Chance of increased relationship, more knowledge about the outside world,
M: -3 Temp Econ, +3 Temp Diplo, Improved Chance of increased relationship, more knowledge about the outside world,
-Possible Targets: Lowlander Tribes,
[] [SEC/MAIN] Venerate Arthryn
S: -1 Temp Econ, +1 Temp Mystic, +1 Temp Culture, Chance of ???,
M: -3 Temp Econ, +2 Temp Mystic, +2 Temp Culture, Improved Chance of ???,
S: -2 Temp Econ, +1 Shrine (+1 Mystic per 3 Shrines),
M: -4 Temp Econ, +2 Shrines (+1 Mystic per 3 Shrines),
-Possible Targets: Greenbay 1/1, Rockbay (0/1),
[] [SEC/MAIN] Create New Trails.
S: -2 Temp Econ, +1 Trail (1/2),
M: -4 Temp Econ, +2 Trails (1/2),
[] [SEC/MAIN] Explore Lands = (Target)
S: -1 Temp Econ, -1 Temp Martial, Chance of new discovery,
M: -3 Temp Econ, -2 Temp Martial, Improved Chance of new discovery,
-Possible Targets: Coastline, Coastal Plains, Forest, Lowlands,
[] [SEC/MAIN] More Farming.
S: +1 Temp Econ, Chance of Innovation,
M: -3 Temp Econ, +1 Econ (0/2) (Limited by number of Settlements), Chance of Innovation,
[] [SEC/MAIN] More Fishing.
S: +1 Temp Econ, Chance of Innovation,
M: +3 Temp Econ, Improved Chance of Innovation
[] [SEC/MAIN] More Hunting.
S: +1 Temp Econ, +1 Temp Martial, Chance of Innovation,
M: +3 Temp Econ, +2 Temp Martial, Improved Chance of Innovation
[] [MAIN] New Settlement = (Target)
M: -4 Temp Econ, -1 Temp Martial, +1 Settlement, +1 Econ,
-Possible Targets: Greenbay (1/12), Rockbay (1/12), Upriver Plains (0/12), Sunrise Bay (0/12), Sunset Plains (0/12), Sunrise Plains (0/12),
[] [SEC/MAIN] Trade Mission = (Target)
S: -1 Temp Econ, +1 Temp Diplo, Chance of increased relationship, more knowledge about the outside world,
M: -3 Temp Econ, +3 Temp Diplo, Improved Chance of increased relationship, more knowledge about the outside world,
-Possible Targets: Lowlander Tribes,
[] [SEC/MAIN] Venerate Arthryn
S: -1 Temp Econ, +1 Temp Mystic, +1 Temp Culture, Chance of ???,
M: -3 Temp Econ, +2 Temp Mystic, +2 Temp Culture, Improved Chance of ???,
***
The knowledge and wisdom option is upgrading a value. Sort of. There is much to upgrade Communal Compassion during this so it is pretty much doubling down on what is already there so not only the People less likely to cause internal problems due to human greed and selfishness, but Arthryn personally backing this value means that it is harder for the outsiders to cause disruption to the People.
The blessing is something like a racial change. That isn't quite accurate, but what has happened is that Arthryn has made so that the People have some racial bonus. They are still human, but are different the same way that human races in the Elder Scrolls settings are different like the Nords, Redguards and Imperials are different and have their own racial bonuses.
While this might matter on an individual scale, it is less significant on a civilisation scale as you are better off relying upon technology, education and cultural influences than any inherent racial bonuses. In this case, the only major civ scale effect is the +1 bonus to innovation rolls that you got from the Legacy.
The blessing itself is based off of Arthryn. From Vryn being a martial hero, the People have higher than average toughness, strength, stamina and resilience, which translates to better untrained fighters, greater resistance to diseases and injury and a natural longer lifespan. From Arth being an admin hero, the People are naturally more intelligent with a better head for numbers, better memories and being able to figure out things faster hence the mechanical benefit you get from the Legacy.
Another effect of the blessing is that the female members of the People will have a figure like Arthryn, which is to say larger chests and hips and an average waist.
The People
Council of Elders
Upper Centralization Limit: ???
Lower Centralization Limit: ???
Admin Strain Free Provinces: ???
Penalty Accumulation: ???
Player Actions: 2 Secondary Actions +1 Secondary Action per 2 Provinces
Province Actions: 1 Secondary Action per 2 Provinces
Subordinates: ???
Early Ancient Palace Economy
Temp Econ Damage: Event, -1 per 1 Centralisation,
Wealth Generation: 1 per Dominant,
Passive Policies: N/A
Additional Actions: None
Special: Negative Centralisation or lower than Minimum Centralisation will lead to collapse.
Special: Increased polity size will raise the level of Minimum Centralisation required.
Stats
Diplo: 2 (2)
Econ: 7 (5)
Martial: 3 (3)
Mystic: 1 (1)
Culture: 1 (1)
Tech: 0 (0)
Wealth: 0 (0)
Legitimacy: 3/3
Stability: 3/3
Centralisation: 3
Hierarchy: 2
Prestige: 5
Statuses
Currently none.
Diplomatic Relations
Lowlander Tribes = Minimal/Cautiously Friendly
Forest Folk = None
Freak Folk = None
Lowlander Zealots = None
Values & Legacies
Chosen of Arthryn: Gain +1 to all Innovation Rolls,
Communal Mandate
As per the words of the goddess, loyalty and kindness to one's people is of the highest importance and even when times are tough or when it is not personally beneficial, one should stick by their community.
Pros: Reduced Internal Discontent, Increased Resistance to Foreign Intrigue,
Cons: Increase stability loss from taking actions which harm the People,
Born Equal
While the choices of a person and the world around them can make a person greater or lesser, everyone is born equal to each other.
Pros: Decreased social stratification,
Cons: Decreased social stratification,
Technologies
Council of Elders
Upper Centralization Limit: ???
Lower Centralization Limit: ???
Admin Strain Free Provinces: ???
Penalty Accumulation: ???
Player Actions: 2 Secondary Actions +1 Secondary Action per 2 Provinces
Province Actions: 1 Secondary Action per 2 Provinces
Subordinates: ???
Early Ancient Palace Economy
Temp Econ Damage: Event, -1 per 1 Centralisation,
Wealth Generation: 1 per Dominant,
Passive Policies: N/A
Additional Actions: None
Special: Negative Centralisation or lower than Minimum Centralisation will lead to collapse.
Special: Increased polity size will raise the level of Minimum Centralisation required.
Stats
Diplo: 2 (2)
Econ: 7 (5)
Martial: 3 (3)
Mystic: 1 (1)
Culture: 1 (1)
Tech: 0 (0)
Wealth: 0 (0)
Legitimacy: 3/3
Stability: 3/3
Centralisation: 3
Hierarchy: 2
Prestige: 5
Statuses
Currently none.
Diplomatic Relations
Lowlander Tribes = Minimal/Cautiously Friendly
Forest Folk = None
Freak Folk = None
Lowlander Zealots = None
Values & Legacies
Chosen of Arthryn: Gain +1 to all Innovation Rolls,
Communal Mandate
As per the words of the goddess, loyalty and kindness to one's people is of the highest importance and even when times are tough or when it is not personally beneficial, one should stick by their community.
Pros: Reduced Internal Discontent, Increased Resistance to Foreign Intrigue,
Cons: Increase stability loss from taking actions which harm the People,
Born Equal
While the choices of a person and the world around them can make a person greater or lesser, everyone is born equal to each other.
Pros: Decreased social stratification,
Cons: Decreased social stratification,
Technologies
force200
Megaspell Technician
- Location
- Stable <data corrupted>
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Rockeye
Plausible Engineer
- Location
- Midwestern U.S.
Using MAIN to do new shrines won't build two - just one, as Rockbay has a shrines capacity of one. I think. So it'd be wasted at this point and we can't get a third shrine until we have a third settlement.