Victoria Falls Worldbuilding Thread

If anything, I think Yemen would have contracted a bit, especially if it has become a Russian client focused around the Aden port. There's a lot of marginal, empty space in the eastern Hadramawt governorate that wouldn't be advantageous to hold onto. The western, more mountainous region is host to almost all of the country's major population centers.
 
Okay, I'm not an expert in any way... But looking back at history, I think there's something more that can be said about Israel.

Namely? I suspect that the reason Alex decided he had to intervene in the Middle East before Poland had been crushed was that the global 'Oops' moment that was The Collapse lead to yet another Arab-Israeli war. Probably started when the destabilizing effects of the collapse meant that some soldiers went rogue and attacked Israel. Followed by Israeli counter attacks, which meant that the collapsing Arab nations all decided that 'Yes, this is happening' because it gave a wonderful distraction for their citizens from the hell holes their countries were becoming. I figure that the initial blooding had started to wrap up, and the nations looking to secure favourable peace deals when Russia intervened.

I'd think that they did so because Alex finally had some free time and noticed that the Israelis were a bit too close to the Suez Canal on the Sinai peninsula for his liking. After all, whilst it would be nice to have two nations as vassals/puppets/'allies' so you can play them off each other, you do not do that with key strategic assets like the Canal. So Alex leant on the Egyptians a bit to become a 'friend' and give his units access, followed by the nearest Israeli units to the canal 'disappearing'. Which lead to Israel pulling back to areas were they can more easily defend whilst trading territory and time on the peninsula for enemy casualties.

As for Lebanon and Syria... Syria's lost the remaining third of the Golan Heights that they've held since they lost the other two thirds in the Six Day War. They might have also lost some more territory, but if so it's territory that's advantageous to use as defensive positions, or is too problematic to leave for someone to attack from into 'Israeli' territory. The Lebanese-Israeli border most likely didn't move much. Or rather, it did but Russia's intervention 'corrected' that. I'd say it's different from what it is today, but only because the border has been pushed a bit further into Lebanon so that Israel has the best defensive line it can manage. Might have even given up some territory if they wouldn't lose anything critical from doing so, and it improved the defences they could set up. There's a possibility that Israel had 'won' that front and was trying to set up a stable but friendly nation there to try and avoid a terrorist organization effectively running a nation on their border when Russia intervened and puppeted/'stabilised' Lebanon. So my thoughts would be that whilst Lebanon is a Russian vassal, Israel still has a firm enough infiltration of it that Russia doesn't really use Lebanon for any offensive actions against Israel.

Now Jordan... I think that Jordan's an apocalypse. Eastern Jordan is a wasteland where Russia annihilated, and keeps annihilating, anything that looks like it might be civilisation. Western Jordan however I'm unsure of. I suspect that this is the border that least changed during the 'new' Arab-Israeli war just due to the fact that the northern half of the border already is an excellent defensive line in the Jordan and Yarmouk rivers. But then Russia decides it needs to intervene, and whilst it's securing it's southern border in Iran and Turkey, as well as securing Mediterranean access and bases and making sure that the Suez is held by a single friendly power it might as well ensure that the oil stops flowing from the region.

I think what would have happened is that as it became clear that Russia was creating a live-action film: Mongols Invade the Middle East 2: It Gets Worse, then Jordan would reach out to Russia to see if they could become one of the 'partners'/'protectorates'/'vassals' of the Russian Empire. But as you made clear, Jordan as it was had to die for Alex's vision of the Middle East. Even more unfortunately for Jordan, he had limited time, effort and resources to prop up said vision and he'd already used it all up on others so 'reforming' Jordan into something useful for Russia couldn't happen. Jordan at this point possibly reached out to Israel. After all, they could with (and had been after failing to destroy it) Israel if they had to. They wouldn't be living if Russia had anything to say about it. But Russia's strong enough to break even this... But not to potentially finish the job before they get distracted elsewhere.

So I'd say that west Jordan is still... Okay, maybe not functional. But some weird undead abomination of a nation that Russia is annoyed with, Israel is terrified of but needs to keep unalive, and is comprised of a horrific mixed of the remnants of the nations Russia destroyed that still wanted to fight and could make it to Jordan, mixed with the remnants of Jordan and infused with regular reinforcements/assistance from Israel. No one is sure if it's actually a protectorate of Israel, an Israeli autonomous region or a usually cold war front that flares hot every now and then when Russia or it's proxies have enough to spare to try and push Israel back.

In short: I think that Israel has probably expanded a bit from it's modern borders in the bloody days during and after the Collapse, but that Russia's intervention and Israeli desire to absolutely not over-extend that only got worse once it become clear the global hegemon was using the area as his personal play pen and Israel was not wanted, meant that any gains they've made is to secure the best nearby defensive lines possible, whilst preferably also having territory that they can trade for enemy casualties before hitting core Israeli territory
 
All right, the Middle East. Given the scope of the discussion, I'll extend my reach on this one to various areas outside of what is technically considered to be the Middle East, but I won't spread all the way across North Africa -- we can save that for the discussion on Africa itself.

This is a preliminary summary, taking into account what people have, generally, told me. This is still open for shopping, and I'm sure it'll change its shape a bit on its way to a conclusion.

Overview
Russian interventionism in the Middle East came in three phases, and for two primary objectives.
To establish a framework of what we're talking about, we need a map:
Russia has ~150 million people. The rest of the old Soviet Union, from Ukraine through Belarus to Tajikistan, number around 120-150 million again.
While most of these countries are Russia-friendly with some notable exceptions(Baltics, Ukraine, Georgia), none of them, not even Belarus, are exactly pushing at the door to return to Mother Russia's arms.

Retaking and, critically, garrisoning those nationstates, will require significant resources. Resources that won't be available for foreign adventures.
That's before Alexei can even establish military logistic lines down to the Middle East.
This will affect what he can do, and where.

Im laying this out now to establish my line of thinking before attempting detailed commentary on the rest of the draft.
 
Iran
While some people have assured me that Iran is two delicate breaths away from complete societal collapse, the general argument that it has survived as a coherent national entity for millennia of ups and downs, and more recently under seriously intense isolation and pressure, has swayed me. Iran shall live. Now, let's explore the implications.
I will refer to the map in my previous post.

Iran is a country of 81 million as of 2019.
They feed themselves, they have a well-educated population, and a significant local manufacturing base. They have multiple decades worth of preparation for a war of attrition against foreign invaders, and critically, the terrain necessary to make any such venture hurt.

There is significant local political pressure for liberalisation, but the government itself is not inherently viewed as illegitimate by its citizens.
That's important.

Crucially, they also share a border, and generally good relations with Pakistan.
Nuclear-armed Pakistan. The Pakistan that Russia and India just destabilized as part of their alliance. The Pakistan with a nuclear stockpile of ~160 warheads, and more in fissile material. The Pakistan that was trafficking nuclear material and expertise in the 90s.

Suffice it to say that by the time, Russia reaches their border, they WILL be nuclear-armed.
And reinforced by the remnants of the Pakistani military; the Middle East has a history of rapidly shifting alliances against outsiders. Note that Saddam sent 100 warplanes of the Iraqi Air Force to Iran during the First Gulf War, barely two years after the horrifically bloody Iran-Iraq War.

Plus, they already have domestically produced ballistic and cruise missiles with ranges in excess of 2000km.
Which puts most of the Russian heartland within reach.
Russia could break them. Russia would maul itself doing so.

This is one of those places where Alexei would need to make a deal.

And it bears pointing out that Saudi Arabia is both a longterm strategic rival and one that has actively helped the United States keep Iran down.
There is a lot of bad blood there between the ruling classes.
Russia picking a fight with the Saudis and putting the boot in would probably have them cheering on the sidelines.

Though Alexei's longerterm destabilization plans probably wont be very popular locally.
Because he'd be sticking them with the bill in the form of a large refugee crisis.
Poor Iraq is all kinds of messed up even now.
I don't see that improving in a situation where Alexei is throwing bombs and Iran is sphering the Shia areas of the country.

Kuwait has a population of around 4.5 million as of 2016.
3.2 million of that are expatriates, with only 1.3 million being citizens.
Thats not sustainable in a global collapse.

Barring foreign intervention of some sort, or their cutting a deal, they're kinda fucked. Just refugees from SA would swamp them.

On the other hand, they share no land border through which Russia could fuck them.
Though if you look at the map, they are close enough for Iran to stage some sort of intervention in the area, or for Iran-based companies to operate in Kuwait.
Saudi Arabia has a population of 33 million.
Only 37% are foreigners, of whom Indians make up 2.5 million or so according to Wiki. Demographically, they are much better off than most other Arab Gulf states. But in order to achieve market dominance over petroleum and fossil fuels?This is the one target that Alexei must break.

And as of 2014, they imported 80% of their food.
The collapse of the US/Canada and their food baskets would have collectively done a number on them even without Alexei getting involved. Plus they have major social problems and infrastructure vulnerabilities.

But they aren't an easy hit.
They have operated imported DF-3A IRBMs since 1989, and upgraded their domestic ballistic missile manufacturing last year
www.cnn.com

Exclusive: US intel shows Saudi Arabia escalated its missile program with help from China

The US government has obtained intelligence that Saudi Arabia has significantly escalated its ballistic missile program with the help of China, three sources with direct knowledge of the matter said, a development that threatens decades of US efforts to limit missile proliferation in the Middle...
So even a successful hit could cost significantly.

Unless Alexei can arrange for the Saudis to hit Iran with their missiles as they are going down.....
United Arab Emirates
The Emiratis have a population of around 10 million, of whom 80% are expatriates, and no food security.
Enough said.

Is only 300,000 people and 2.3 million expats.
They should be below notice, if not for the sheer size of their sovereign wealth fund; 330 billion dollars worth is enough to rebuild their country pretty much from base principles.

Even post-Collapse, there should be enough to keep the nation...functional.
1.5 million people. Half are expatriates.
Native Bahrainis are 70% Muslim . Majority Shia population,(62% Shia) ruled by minority Sunni royal family and elites(38% Sunni).
This place goes up like a bomb once Saudi Arabia is gone.

Is already in a civil war.I don't really foresee things improving here. And Aden while a strategic location, will absolutely become a murderous posting for literally anyone sent there. Especially given how much arms and ammunition are floating in the interior of Saudi Arabia, and which can be smuggled across the Red Sea from Sudan.

Is important to Iran.
And also to India, since Iran can't build an oil pipeline across Pakistan.
Controls the other side of the entry to the Persian Gulf.

Without the support of places like Saudi Arabia and some of the Gulf States funnelling money and resources to the rebels, the Syrian rebellion falters right quick. Probably.
It's not like this is the first rebellion the Assads have crushed similarly.

Lebanon is probably of more value as a more or less neutral zone.
Think Alexander trying to replicate his original vision for New York, but with more success.
And Syria already has a lot of influence here anyway.

How Much International Aid Does Israel Receive? - Israeli-Palestinian - ProCon.org

[...]Read More... from How Much International Aid Does Israel Receive?
Israel in this scenario would be rather dependent on the EU for....a lot of things. Goodwill, immigrants, trade....
Nothing like developing a sudden 3-5 billion dollar hole in your defence budget at the same time you attract the attention of a hostile superpower to make you a lot more mindful about picking unnecessary fights.

Threading the needle of the peer-size Palestinean population they have systematically antagonized for decades while avoiding making the EU wash their hands off them or letting Russia wreck them will be....difficult.

Jordan is a country of only 10 million people, which is fairly internally stable; roughly 70% is Palestinean, but they are well-integrated, unlike most other ME nations. And it is neither an oil exporter nor a nuclear power. Why would Alexander care? It isn't easily accessible by land or from the Mediterranean either; any Russian forces would have to bank on moving through the Bosporus, landing in Syria, and then attacking across country.

Plus, it's a major international exporter of phosphates for stuff like fertilizers.
With the US and Canada both down for the count, China in turmoil, and Saudi Arabia the target of a transnational murder plot, that's kinda important to his allies, who have mouths to feed.

The cost-benefit ratio of going after them plain doesn't seem worth it.
Not to mention that if it gets hit by waves of Arab refugees from across the region like Iraq and Saudi Arabia, it will have problems without his lifting a finger. Malevolent neglect is what I'd expect there, to be honest; limited resources, and bigger fish to fry.

Too strategic to mess with.Yes, you can beat them.

No, it will cost you bigtime; the Turkish Army is actually fairly big and well trained by modern standards, being around 40% of the RL Russian military, and is supported by a pretty large and sophisticated industrial sector. And they can do things like mining the shit out of the Bosporus, which is only 700m wide in places. And thats without them sprinting for a nuclear program.

And while you're doing it, you're passing up other things.

Cyprus is not a Greek possession; the Republic of Cyprus is an independent country of 800,000, and a member of the European Union in its own right since 2004. While the Russia Empire might get to troll the EU, Turkey is very much not in the weight class of the EU. Something like this would be the equivalent of Turkey taking a flamethrower to relations with its biggest surviving trade partner and only surviving possible counterweight to Russia.

I would tell you outright that even an indifferently led Turkey would see the offer as the trap it is.
But in Lindtopia with all the self-aggrandizing lunatics who ended up in charge of powerful nations at the same time, who knows?
Just if you go ahead with this, expect that Turkey won't be able to play Russia against the EU. That bridge will be burned, and salted with cobalt-60.

See Africa.

No idea.
Turkey is violently opposed, but with Russia on their border, who knows if they'd have the attention to spare.

The thing is, he's staying out of North America because it's remote. He's staying out of Afghanistan because it's of limited strategic value to him and possibly also because of national trauma; the only thing worth having in that country is the mineral deposits and nobody can mine them while there's a guerilla war on.

The Middle East has resources and location too valuable for him NOT to seize, if he wishes to turn Russia from a Great Power into a global hegemon, and if he wishes to seriously influence the global oil market.
You don't need absolute control in order to control the market. Saudi Arabia does it today.

In this AU, just by eliminating the US, Canada, Mexico and Saudi Arabia, then occupying the former Soviet republics?
He has reduced daily oil production by ~33 million bpd, from 81 million bpd to 48 million bpd, while increasing the Russian Empire's share of it from 10.8 million bpd to about 13.5 million bpd. He's gone from 12.5% to >25% of global oil production, just in direct control.

Remove Iraq's 4 million bpd as well, and we end up with the Russian Empire directly controlling around 30-33% of the world's oil production.
Indirect influence is not included here.

Besides, as portrayed, Alexei is good at appealing to people's delusions, and somehow getting them to ignore longterm consequences.

Do remember that for oil producers, high oil prices are in their own best interests.
It's entirely IC for him to murder Saudi Arabia, enter OPEC and push for controlling oil production in order to push the prices higher, while using overt and covert pressures to keep the remaining producers in line.

While in the meantime using that control both for political purposes and to fund his attempts to undermine their control of energy production entirely. And to incentivize the industrialized countries to invent, adopt and popularize alternative energy schemes.

I think Alexander, in this timeline, may have first taken over oil output, even guaranteeing some reasonable (if low) allocation to certain ailing countries he otherwise sought to undermine, and then began throttling it back year by year after he had control of it. Because securing Middle Eastern oil and then doling it out balances the fact that for a short time he has superior force of arms, and the fact that he desires to control and throttle down the usage of oil over a period of years.
Fischer-Tropsch is a thing.
And the EU is not short of coal, or the willingness to indulge in more oil exploration.
The problem is that he could quite easily push people into becoming more polluting/environmentally destructive by turning to coal or biomass.
 
One thing I almost forgot:
Alexander is not the only one capable of madman strategies.

The CIA IRL were the ones who allegedly brokered Saudi Arabia getting it's first IRBMs in the 80s to serve as a deterrent against other nations. Overt military moves are the sort of thing that end up with US nuclear material and Chinese/Pakistani design expertise showing up in Turkey courtesy of Dutch foreign intelligence, say, or the DGSE.

There are distinct disadvantages to open military action.
 
No, it will cost you bigtime; the Turkish Army is actually fairly big and well trained by modern standards, being around 40% of the RL Russian military, and is supported by a pretty large and sophisticated industrial sector. And they can do things like mining the shit out of the Bosporus, which is only 700m wide in places. And thats without them sprinting for a nuclear program.

I'll note that recent Turkey appears to have revealed itself as a paper tiger militarily.

Erdogan's purges and other issues seem to have gutted the Turkish military's fighting ability as they have performed fairly poorly in their actions in Syria.
 
I'll note that recent Turkey appears to have revealed itself as a paper tiger militarily.
Erdogan's purges and other issues seem to have gutted the Turkish military's fighting ability as they have performed fairly poorly in their actions in Syria.
True.

I'm assuming watching the US first neuter itself, then Collapse at the same time that Alexei eats Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaijan on their northern border will concentrate attentions and effort right quick.
Heck, given as Turkey and Iran share a border, you might see a tacit diplomatic/intelligence-sharing alliance.
 
Sweet Jesus, the ethnic cleansing. So much ethnic cleansing. I can't even imagine how many troops, how much time and money and effort the Russians continue to pump into this region. It's not like they can pull out. They just sent their army in and started killing everyone. And it really doesn't seem like they could try and set up another Victoria to keep the bloody status quo - it's too close to their borders, way too easy for things to messily blow over, and if any of their puppets got strong enough to effectively handle their situation, they'd be less dependent on Russia - something which is unacceptable.
Down in the Arabian peninsula, they probably deliberately blew up a lot of infrastructure such as waterworks, causing population crashes and leaving the surviving population in no shape to reorganize meaningfully,

Trying to sleep but a few quick points
-Powers like the EU and its members India, Australia, Japan and others besiders are going to have interests in the region so they are going to pursue their goals in the region and the EU member's, India and Australia will do it at a determinent to Russia.
Russia probably did this while the US and EU were in the process of utterly falling apart. As @PoptartProdigy pointed out by looking at France. Here, we have a country whose central government has collapsed due to repeated epidemics crashing the economy (meet COVID-19 and its four or five siblings, everyone!), and where there are up to six regional governments claiming legitimacy and bickering over who's really in charge while mostly trying to avoid open violence because the last thing they need is a civil war.

This is a country that surely still needs oil for all sorts of things... but which cannot POSSIBLY project any real power or influence to deter the Russians from threatening their oil supply. All they can really do is hope that Alexander, in his mercy, lets them continue to have an oil supply.

My suspicion is that he did, simply because he couldn't afford to have too many regions of the world collapsing at the same time or fighting on too many fronts... but that he took the opportunity to seize military control of the Middle East's remaining oil production centers, and has spent the past 40-50 years demonstrating WHY the EU and US fought so long to keep control of the region, because he can now easily throttle back oil output or redirect it, and uses this as a choke chain on the EU economy that they are not in a position to contest with Russian bases all over the Middle East as 'facts on the ground.'

- Aside from Isreal swan diving off the deep end which makes no sense but given what I have heard about the source material author not surprising. I expect Russian agents to be struggling at infiltration of Israel due to how scary capable and brutal Mossad can be in the HUMINT department. Also the fact they may or may not have the Nuclear option available is interesting would probably drown under the weight of Russia's arsenal but depending on the number they could do a lot of damage to Russian client states if they desired before they went down mainly depending on if they have actual bombs or a missile system for deployment.
The big problem for the israelis is that their nuclear arsenal is either in submarines floating around the Eastern Mediterranean where the Russians can, potentially, find them, or in land-based silos on Israel's very limited amount of real estate where they are vulnerable to destruction on very short notice. Given that Russia has destabilized at least two nuclear powers with much larger arsenals and more ability to secure those arsenals out of easy reach of a Russian first strike, I can't imagine that really stopping Alexander for any great length of time.

- One thing though depend is a lot of tribal groups and ethnic minorities are present in the middle east among other things any Russian peace keepers or anyone for that matter in a government are going to have to contend with getting shot at by the ones who really don't like the because they allied with them. It's going to be a difficulty for anyone operating in the Middle East Imperial Russian or otherwise.
True. On the other hand it means that almost everyone has an enemy who can be armed to attack them if they get too powerful.

Does Iran have modern borders, or did Alex annex the Azeri bit of Iran? If he annexed most of it I could see him also annexing a part of the kurdish bits of it so there wasn't a thin sliver of Iran running along his border, in which case he probably wouldn't have supported a Kurdistan.
I mean. He might have decided he doesn't actually care who owns that specific set of mountains and just let the Kurds have it as part of a policy of "encourage the Turks to shovel the Turkish Kurds across the border, but give them somewhere to go by establishing a Kurdistan outside the Turkish border, then police that area to ensure no cross-border harassment, thereby making the Kurds into Not Turkey's Problem Anymore."

Okay, I'm not an expert in any way... But looking back at history, I think there's something more that can be said about Israel.

Namely? I suspect that the reason Alex decided he had to intervene in the Middle East before Poland had been crushed was that the global 'Oops' moment that was The Collapse lead to yet another Arab-Israeli war. Probably started when the destabilizing effects of the collapse meant that some soldiers went rogue and attacked Israel. Followed by Israeli counter attacks, which meant that the collapsing Arab nations all decided that 'Yes, this is happening' because it gave a wonderful distraction for their citizens from the hell holes their countries were becoming. I figure that the initial blooding had started to wrap up, and the nations looking to secure favourable peace deals when Russia intervened.

I'd think that they did so because Alex finally had some free time and noticed that the Israelis were a bit too close to the Suez Canal on the Sinai peninsula for his liking. After all, whilst it would be nice to have two nations as vassals/puppets/'allies' so you can play them off each other, you do not do that with key strategic assets like the Canal. So Alex leant on the Egyptians a bit to become a 'friend' and give his units access, followed by the nearest Israeli units to the canal 'disappearing'. Which lead to Israel pulling back to areas were they can more easily defend whilst trading territory and time on the peninsula for enemy casualties.

As for Lebanon and Syria... Syria's lost the remaining third of the Golan Heights that they've held since they lost the other two thirds in the Six Day War. They might have also lost some more territory, but if so it's territory that's advantageous to use as defensive positions, or is too problematic to leave for someone to attack from into 'Israeli' territory. The Lebanese-Israeli border most likely didn't move much. Or rather, it did but Russia's intervention 'corrected' that. I'd say it's different from what it is today, but only because the border has been pushed a bit further into Lebanon so that Israel has the best defensive line it can manage. Might have even given up some territory if they wouldn't lose anything critical from doing so, and it improved the defences they could set up. There's a possibility that Israel had 'won' that front and was trying to set up a stable but friendly nation there to try and avoid a terrorist organization effectively running a nation on their border when Russia intervened and puppeted/'stabilised' Lebanon. So my thoughts would be that whilst Lebanon is a Russian vassal, Israel still has a firm enough infiltration of it that Russia doesn't really use Lebanon for any offensive actions against Israel.
The operative question is whether Russia wants to let the israelis hold onto more territory.

Remember Poptart's core point: the continued existence, and especially any expansion, of Israel draws constant aggro from all over the Muslim world and particularly from the surrounding Arab populations. And Israel doesn't have anything beneficial to offer Alexander. Only hassles, conflicts with proxies and allies he actually has a use for, aaand threats to use their tiny nuclear arsenal to disproportionate effect.

So while the Israelis might win that fight against their neighbors, and secure favorable treaties and gain ground if the neighbors were all there was in the picture... I think Alexander has a lot more to gain from rolling them violently back to the 2020 borders than he does from letting them hold more ground.

So I'd say that west Jordan is still... Okay, maybe not functional. But some weird undead abomination of a nation that Russia is annoyed with, Israel is terrified of but needs to keep unalive, and is comprised of a horrific mixed of the remnants of the nations Russia destroyed that still wanted to fight and could make it to Jordan, mixed with the remnants of Jordan and infused with regular reinforcements/assistance from Israel. No one is sure if it's actually a protectorate of Israel, an Israeli autonomous region or a usually cold war front that flares hot every now and then when Russia or it's proxies have enough to spare to try and push Israel back.
The problem is that this area is also full of enormous numbers of pissed-off Palestinian refugee/emigre/exile/expatriate/???s who have got to be thinking "you know, if we could get our shit together for one good push and convince the Russians to hand over some firepower, we could finally, after a hundred years, take it all back..."



Iran is a country of 81 million as of 2019.
They feed themselves, they have a well-educated population, and a significant local manufacturing base. They have multiple decades worth of preparation for a war of attrition against foreign invaders, and critically, the terrain necessary to make any such venture hurt.

There is significant local political pressure for liberalisation, but the government itself is not inherently viewed as illegitimate by its citizens.
That's important.

Crucially, they also share a border, and generally good relations with Pakistan.
Nuclear-armed Pakistan. The Pakistan that Russia and India just destabilized as part of their alliance. The Pakistan with a nuclear stockpile of ~160 warheads, and more in fissile material. The Pakistan that was trafficking nuclear material and expertise in the 90s.

Suffice it to say that by the time, Russia reaches their border, they WILL be nuclear-armed.
And reinforced by the remnants of the Pakistani military; the Middle East has a history of rapidly shifting alliances against outsiders. Note that Saddam sent 100 warplanes of the Iraqi Air Force to Iran during the First Gulf War, barely two years after the horrifically bloody Iran-Iraq War.

Plus, they already have domestically produced ballistic and cruise missiles with ranges in excess of 2000km.
Which puts most of the Russian heartland within reach.
Russia could break them. Russia would maul itself doing so.

This is one of those places where Alexei would need to make a deal.
The operative question is whether Iran's government collapses. Note that this isn't just a question of whether the citizenry, on the whole, respects the government. Remember that the backdrop of the global crisis of the 2020s that leads into the Collapse in this timeline includes, for example, multiple major pandemics, each of which is probably as bad or worse than COVID-19. How many of those bodyslams can Iranian institutions handle before, for instance, much of the senior leadership dies and the people who remain are either:
1) Inexperienced and prone to mistakes that tend to destabilize the state,
2) Individuals with very new and in many cases divergent visions for how to run things, unexpectedly placed in charge,
3) Widely considered less legitimate because the government is now full of 'acting ministers' replacing septuagenarian clerics who died of turbocoronavirus and whom no one's ever heard of,
4) Flailing around a bit because the last spiteful gasps of US military power in the region were used to undermine them,
5) Et cetera or some combination of the above?

There's a lot of room for Iran to be in such a bad way that Russia gets an 'in' with parts of the government or manages, through bold actions, to secure control of the nuclear weapons. The country's populace may very well be in a position where the citizenry still thinks of themselves as Iranian nationals obeying a lawful Iranian government... they're just having trouble sorting out which government that should be.

And it bears pointing out that Saudi Arabia is both a longterm strategic rival and one that has actively helped the United States keep Iran down.
There is a lot of bad blood there between the ruling classes.
Russia picking a fight with the Saudis and putting the boot in would probably have them cheering on the sidelines.
I'm basically picturing Russia showing up, getting the backing of some faction that has or can seize the nukes (or disable any nukes not under their control with a coup de main), and then going on to stop all over Sunni Iraq and Saudi Arabia to give that faction credibility.

It ends with Russia having a lot of influence over Iran, and resolving the refugee crisis in the most brutal manner possible- by shooting anyone who crosses a given line in the sand.

Jordan is a country of only 10 million people, which is fairly internally stable; roughly 70% is Palestinean, but they are well-integrated, unlike most other ME nations. And it is neither an oil exporter nor a nuclear power. Why would Alexander care? It isn't easily accessible by land or from the Mediterranean either; any Russian forces would have to bank on moving through the Bosporus, landing in Syria, and then attacking across country.

Plus, it's a major international exporter of phosphates for stuff like fertilizers.
With the US and Canada both down for the count, China in turmoil, and Saudi Arabia the target of a transnational murder plot, that's kinda important to his allies, who have mouths to feed.

The cost-benefit ratio of going after them plain doesn't seem worth it.
Not to mention that if it gets hit by waves of Arab refugees from across the region like Iraq and Saudi Arabia, it will have problems without his lifting a finger. Malevolent neglect is what I'd expect there, to be honest; limited resources, and bigger fish to fry.
@PoptartProdigy , I think Uju has a point here. Especially if Russia is acting to violently keep refugees OUT of Iran and Turkey, as a favor to his dependent governments in those nations and to avoid them falling apart and making problems for him personally. They'll try to go somewhere, Israel is already behind giant fences, Jordan is going to be swamped and overcrowded with refugees. Alexander probably doesn't have to reduce them to a Mad Max wasteland to prevent them from being relevant or intervening somewhere relevant.

You don't need absolute control in order to control the market. Saudi Arabia does it today.

In this AU, just by eliminating the US, Canada, Mexico and Saudi Arabia, then occupying the former Soviet republics?
He has reduced daily oil production by ~33 million bpd, from 81 million bpd to 48 million bpd, while increasing the Russian Empire's share of it from 10.8 million bpd to about 13.5 million bpd. He's gone from 12.5% to >25% of global oil production, just in direct control.

Remove Iraq's 4 million bpd as well, and we end up with the Russian Empire directly controlling around 30-33% of the world's oil production.
Indirect influence is not included here.

Besides, as portrayed, Alexei is good at appealing to people's delusions, and somehow getting them to ignore longterm consequences.

Do remember that for oil producers, high oil prices are in their own best interests.
It's entirely IC for him to murder Saudi Arabia, enter OPEC and push for controlling oil production in order to push the prices higher, while using overt and covert pressures to keep the remaining producers in line.

While in the meantime using that control both for political purposes and to fund his attempts to undermine their control of energy production entirely. And to incentivize the industrialized countries to invent, adopt and popularize alternative energy schemes.

Fischer-Tropsch is a thing.
And the EU is not short of coal, or the willingness to indulge in more oil exploration.
The problem is that he could quite easily push people into becoming more polluting/environmentally destructive by turning to coal or biomass.
The catch is that Alexander is doing all this in, say, the 2030s- after the US has suffered so many crippling body blows and so much disruption of its political processes that alt-right terrorist militias can take over New England of all places. Most of Europe is presumably in about as bad a shape as that, structurally. None of them are in a position to operate outside their own borders on a meaningful level. India is, so Russia has to assure India that their oil supply will not be interrupted. China, probably likewise IF they haven't been very very badly cut up by the pandemics.

The EU is looking very very worried at this point. Or rather, the shrapnel of rump states, remnant states, and hollowed-out governments barely holding on and barely maintaining order.

Which is when Russia deploys the carrot instead of the stick- he starts subsidizing them with oil. The supply isn't what they'd like, but it's enough that the already damaged and reduced economies can sort of chug along, enough that nobody starves. And by a wide variety of means, including the ability to throttle up or down global oil production by a significant amount, price manipulation, direct threats, FSB/KGB/Okhrana/whatever destabilization of polities he doesn't like, and so on... Russia manages to maintain control of the global oil supply as a means of rewarding his allies, punishing his enemies, and deterring neutrals, while gradually winding oil production down even as global demand for fuel has already taken a major hit from the collapse and decreases in international demand for shipping, travel, and manufactured luxury goods.

By the time European nations are in a position to consider Fischer-Tropsch infrastructure as something they can conceivably afford to build, they no longer need to do so... but Alexander controls the oil supplies and if anything, further emissions reduction and embrace of green technology becomes an independence measure that even anti-Russian political factions pursue because the alternative is to surrender their will to Russia.

One thing I almost forgot:
Alexander is not the only one capable of madman strategies.

The CIA IRL were the ones who allegedly brokered Saudi Arabia getting it's first IRBMs in the 80s to serve as a deterrent against other nations. Overt military moves are the sort of thing that end up with US nuclear material and Chinese/Pakistani design expertise showing up in Turkey courtesy of Dutch foreign intelligence, say, or the DGSE.

There are distinct disadvantages to open military action.
Yes, but only if you're dealing with intact nation-states. The US can pursue madman strategies... as long as the CIA agents and so on aren't pausing and staring at the government shutdown that just occurred and how the credit rating agencies just downrated the US government another letter category and how there is actual outright guerilla warfare in chunks of the country (which may be demanding their attention) and all that jazz, while COVID-19-sized epidemics are rampaging around all over the place, and thinking...

"Shit, I don't know if I should go into work this week... or whether I'll actually get paid if I do, come to think of it..."

...And just, y'know, not showing up to facilitate the transfer. Meanwhile, the actual government is so busy trying to unfuck the domestic situation that it simply doesn't have the energy for foreign adventurism.
 
Down in the Arabian peninsula, they probably deliberately blew up a lot of infrastructure such as waterworks, causing population crashes and leaving the surviving population in no shape to reorganize meaningfully,
This.
For instance, 50% of Saudi Arabia's drinking water comes from desalination plants, with 40% from non-renewable aquifers.
Riyadh's water supply has to travel almost 500km.

Russia probably did this while the US and EU were in the process of utterly falling apart. As @PoptartProdigy pointed out by looking at France. Here, we have a country whose central government has collapsed due to repeated epidemics crashing the economy (meet COVID-19 and its four or five siblings, everyone!), and where there are up to six regional governments claiming legitimacy and bickering over who's really in charge while mostly trying to avoid open violence because the last thing they need is a civil war.

This is a country that surely still needs oil for all sorts of things... but which cannot POSSIBLY project any real power or influence to deter the Russians from threatening their oil supply. All they can really do is hope that Alexander, in his mercy, lets them continue to have an oil supply.

My suspicion is that he did, simply because he couldn't afford to have too many regions of the world collapsing at the same time or fighting on too many fronts... but that he took the opportunity to seize military control of the Middle East's remaining oil production centers, and has spent the past 40-50 years demonstrating WHY the EU and US fought so long to keep control of the region, because he can now easily throttle back oil output or redirect it, and uses this as a choke chain on the EU economy that they are not in a position to contest with Russian bases all over the Middle East as 'facts on the ground.'
The PRC was still around until 1942.
Around, and actively investing in building alliances even in places like Cascadia. There is very little chance they weren't involved in the Middle East, especially since they sourced oil from the region, and Pakistan was a strategic ally.

The big problem for the israelis is that their nuclear arsenal is either in submarines floating around the Eastern Mediterranean where the Russians can, potentially, find them, or in land-based silos on Israel's very limited amount of real estate where they are vulnerable to destruction on very short notice. Given that Russia has destabilized at least two nuclear powers with much larger arsenals and more ability to secure those arsenals out of easy reach of a Russian first strike, I can't imagine that really stopping Alexander for any great length of time.
They do have the advantage of other friendly ports on the Mediterranean as long as they keep the EU sweet.
Basically the entirety of the Med's northern shoreline.
Or at least the Spanish portion, after France and Italy started having domestic issues.

On the other hand, their submarine nukes are mounted on cruise missiles, not high-Mach ICBMs.
And laser point defence is increasingly a thing even today.

I mean. He might have decided he doesn't actually care who owns that specific set of mountains and just let the Kurds have it as part of a policy of "encourage the Turks to shovel the Turkish Kurds across the border, but give them somewhere to go by establishing a Kurdistan outside the Turkish border, then police that area to ensure no cross-border harassment, thereby making the Kurds into Not Turkey's Problem Anymore."
  • Turkish Kurds represent 15-20% of the Turkish population. 12-16 million people. Turkey can't afford to lose all that population and manpower, nor is there any real space to send them.
  • Do remember that these are allies/client states of convenience, not minions. Their interests only occasionally coincide with Alexei's intentions. It's very much an Alexei move to burden their societies and economies with refugees, which in turn limits the amount of effort they can spend on things he doesn't approve of/without his support, which makes them weaker vis a vis the Russian Empire.
The operative question is whether Russia wants to let the israelis hold onto more territory.

Remember Poptart's core point: the continued existence, and especially any expansion, of Israel draws constant aggro from all over the Muslim world and particularly from the surrounding Arab populations. And Israel doesn't have anything beneficial to offer Alexander. Only hassles, conflicts with proxies and allies he actually has a use for, aaand threats to use their tiny nuclear arsenal to disproportionate effect.

So while the Israelis might win that fight against their neighbors, and secure favorable treaties and gain ground if the neighbors were all there was in the picture... I think Alexander has a lot more to gain from rolling them violently back to the 2020 borders than he does from letting them hold more ground.
Also, there's the European Union.

Israel no longer has the unquestioning support of the United States, where since the end of the Cold War, there are factions that will unquestioningly fund whatever the fuck Israel wants. People underestimate the diplomatic and military protection all that entails, as well as the economic benefits. The Europeans have tended to have a much more jaundiced view of Israeli activities.

I fully expect the Israelis to lose territory in this scenario.
The Golan Heights are internationally recognized Syrian territory, even though Israel currently occupies it. With Syria having the hegemon in their corner for a change, I expect that chunk of territory to change hands back.

Their southwestern neighbor is 100-million man Egypt, which has the national resources to come back for seconds as many times as is necessary. Hezbollah has demonstrated the costs of going into Lebanon repeatedly. The only direction they could expand in is into 10-million man Jordan. And disrupting global phosphate fertilizer production will earn them exactly zero favors.

The problem is that this area is also full of enormous numbers of pissed-off Palestinian refugee/emigre/exile/expatriate/???s who have got to be thinking "you know, if we could get our shit together for one good push and convince the Russians to hand over some firepower, we could finally, after a hundred years, take it all back..."
Also this.
Even now, Israel's 9 million population has to deal with 5-6 million Palestineans, and they're only that few because almost half the registered Palestinean population of 13 million are abroad in refugee camps. Technological superiority will only get you so far.

The operative question is whether Iran's government collapses. Note that this isn't just a question of whether the citizenry, on the whole, respects the government. Remember that the backdrop of the global crisis of the 2020s that leads into the Collapse in this timeline includes, for example, multiple major pandemics, each of which is probably as bad or worse than COVID-19. How many of those bodyslams can Iranian institutions handle before, for instance, much of the senior leadership dies and the people who remain are either:
1) Inexperienced and prone to mistakes that tend to destabilize the state,
2) Individuals with very new and in many cases divergent visions for how to run things, unexpectedly placed in charge,
3) Widely considered less legitimate because the government is now full of 'acting ministers' replacing septuagenarian clerics who died of turbocoronavirus and whom no one's ever heard of,
4) Flailing around a bit because the last spiteful gasps of US military power in the region were used to undermine them,
5) Et cetera or some combination of the above?

There's a lot of room for Iran to be in such a bad way that Russia gets an 'in' with parts of the government or manages, through bold actions, to secure control of the nuclear weapons. The country's populace may very well be in a position where the citizenry still thinks of themselves as Iranian nationals obeying a lawful Iranian government... they're just having trouble sorting out which government that should be.
The increasing insularity and paralysis of the US govt in this AU, culminating in it's 2033 collapse, frankly frees up the Iranian governments freedom of action. Gives them greater margins of error. Without the US in play, Saudi Arabia vs Iran only goes one way. Post-POTUS-caused economic crisis, how many governments would be paying attention to calls to isolate them? Or preventing them from trading?

If I have to think of one thing that might put Iran in difficulties, it would be the planned murder of Pakistan.
With whom they share a land border. Which means refugees.
LOTS of refugees.

As for the new bioplagues, they probably impede Alexei as badly, if not worse, than the locals.
Can't run military and intelligence operations in a pandemic zone.
And disease is no respecter of national boundaries.

I'm basically picturing Russia showing up, getting the backing of some faction that has or can seize the nukes (or disable any nukes not under their control with a coup de main), and then going on to stop all over Sunni Iraq and Saudi Arabia to give that faction credibility. It ends with Russia having a lot of influence over Iran, and resolving the refugee crisis in the most brutal manner possible- by shooting anyone who crosses a given line in the sand.
Do remember: It's very much in Alexei's interests to burden a lot of those peripheral states with refugees, and all the economic and social issues that entails. Including Iran and Turkey both. And in none of his interests to take the diplomatic flak for civilian deaths; he'll happily kill everyone he has to, but he won't take the fall for someone else's kills.

I'd expect him to promise help, and then renege, or just make it conditional on more concessions.
@PoptartProdigy , I think Uju has a point here. Especially if Russia is acting to violently keep refugees OUT of Iran and Turkey, as a favor to his dependent governments in those nations and to avoid them falling apart and making problems for him personally. They'll try to go somewhere, Israel is already behind giant fences, Jordan is going to be swamped and overcrowded with refugees. Alexander probably doesn't have to reduce them to a Mad Max wasteland to prevent them from being relevant or intervening somewhere relevant.
You can't really stop refugees except with the use of significant land forces or terrain features, and Russia has no land borders in the ME.

Besides. I fully expect Alexei to use refugee populations as a weapon against other nations.
Expect Iran to be hit by waves of Pakistani refugees in addition to acquiring remnant Pakistani military forces. Given that Pakistan is 210 million to Iran's 80 million or so, you can see the issue.

Similarly, expect Turkey to see lots of Arab refugees. While they are farther away from the epicenter of things, I'm sure Alexei will smooth the way.
Hell, if the RL Syrian refugee crisis is any indicator, I expect that some of the internal turmoil in Europe is a result of Alexei successfully shunting Arab/Pakistani/Middle Eastern refugees that way and then using their presence to stir up sectarian strife in those countries.

France, Greece, Italy. All of them have Mediterranean borders and are RL refugee destinations.
All either fought a civil war or suffered major internal strife.
I doubt its coincidence.
The catch is that Alexander is doing all this in, say, the 2030s- after the US has suffered so many crippling body blows and so much disruption of its political processes that alt-right terrorist militias can take over New England of all places. Most of Europe is presumably in about as bad a shape as that, structurally. None of them are in a position to operate outside their own borders on a meaningful level. India is, so Russia has to assure India that their oil supply will not be interrupted. China, probably likewise IF they haven't been very very badly cut up by the pandemics.

The EU is looking very very worried at this point. Or rather, the shrapnel of rump states, remnant states, and hollowed-out governments barely holding on and barely maintaining order.

Which is when Russia deploys the carrot instead of the stick- he starts subsidizing them with oil. The supply isn't what they'd like, but it's enough that the already damaged and reduced economies can sort of chug along, enough that nobody starves. And by a wide variety of means, including the ability to throttle up or down global oil production by a significant amount, price manipulation, direct threats, FSB/KGB/Okhrana/whatever destabilization of polities he doesn't like, and so on... Russia manages to maintain control of the global oil supply as a means of rewarding his allies, punishing his enemies, and deterring neutrals, while gradually winding oil production down even as global demand for fuel has already taken a major hit from the collapse and decreases in international demand for shipping, travel, and manufactured luxury goods.

By the time European nations are in a position to consider Fischer-Tropsch infrastructure as something they can conceivably afford to build, they no longer need to do so... but Alexander controls the oil supplies and if anything, further emissions reduction and embrace of green technology becomes an independence measure that even anti-Russian political factions pursue because the alternative is to surrender their will to Russia.
Look at the provisional timeline from the books.
The People's Republic of China was about and internationally active until 1942. And sufficiently internally stable for state-sponsored corporations to be committing to major foreign construction projects in North America.

Alexei could not have conquered the Central Asian republics until after the PRC was gone. Russia and India could not have gone after Pakistan while the PRC was up and about. They could not have gone after Saudi Arabia and the rest of the Gulf without removing Pakistan and it's nuclear arsenal from the table.

And California would not have disarmed enough to be caught offguard by the Vics if their sponsor had been waging a five year war of genocide across much of Asia between 1942 and 1947.
Many of these things would have had to happen in sequence, and with periods in between to gather strength and resources for the next step.

Yes, but only if you're dealing with intact nation-states. The US can pursue madman strategies... as long as the CIA agents and so on aren't pausing and staring at the government shutdown that just occurred and how the credit rating agencies just downrated the US government another letter category and how there is actual outright guerilla warfare in chunks of the country (which may be demanding their attention) and all that jazz, while COVID-19-sized epidemics are rampaging around all over the place, and thinking...

"Shit, I don't know if I should go into work this week... or whether I'll actually get paid if I do, come to think of it..."
...And just, y'know, not showing up to facilitate the transfer. Meanwhile, the actual government is so busy trying to unfuck the domestic situation that it simply doesn't have the energy for foreign adventurism.
Oh, I wasn't talking about the US, just using them as an example. My apologies for the confusion.
I was thinking more of the smaller countries of the EU(Denmark/Norway/Sweden/Finland/Holland/Belgium/Poland), who apparently kept most of the EU together while it's major economies(Germany/Italy/France/Spain) were paralysed by incidental- and Russia-inspired internal turmoil.

Or shit, Australia.
PACS does have vital energy interests in the Gulf as well, and both Malaysia and Indonesia are co-religionists.
 
I was thinking more of the smaller countries of the EU(Denmark/Norway/Sweden/Finland/Holland/Belgium/Poland), who apparently kept most of the EU together while it's major economies(Germany/Italy/France/Spain) were paralysed by incidental- and Russia-inspired internal turmoil.
Strong words, really. Most of what they did was die slowly enough that the major economies had time to get over their seizures.
 
The PRC was still around until 1942.
Around, and actively investing in building alliances even in places like Cascadia. There is very little chance they weren't involved in the Middle East, especially since they sourced oil from the region, and Pakistan was a strategic ally.
Er, you mean the California Republic? Well by that point they were dealing with a big refugee crisis, they were still very much a rump state compared to the US's overall resources, they had multiple problems closer to home including likely economic chaos caused by the destabilization and collapse of China.

The simple fact, and I do say FACT because I mean fact, is that the entire basis of Russian power in this setting comes from there having been effectively no coherent entity in shape to organize power projection across continental distances in the late 2030s and early 2040s. That's just plain what happened.

The US collapsing, combined with the overall effects of trade disruption and pandemics crushing economies (as COVID-19 is now obligingly illustrating), does so much damage that even where countries maintained cohesion and didn't fall into temporary or permanent anarchy, budgets were desperately tight and the prospects of any international adventurism were very, very risky.

Look at the provisional timeline from the books.
The People's Republic of China was about and internationally active until 1942. And sufficiently internally stable for state-sponsored corporations to be committing to major foreign construction projects in North America.

Alexei could not have conquered the Central Asian republics until after the PRC was gone. Russia and India could not have gone after Pakistan while the PRC was up and about. They could not have gone after Saudi Arabia and the rest of the Gulf without removing Pakistan and it's nuclear arsenal from the table.

And California would not have disarmed enough to be caught offguard by the Vics if their sponsor had been waging a five year war of genocide across much of Asia between 1942 and 1947.
Many of these things would have had to happen in sequence, and with periods in between to gather strength and resources for the next step.
OK, that timeline stuff is relevant. Aside from the part where you said '19' when you meant '20' like three times. :p

...

Though I think you're to some extent downplaying the possibility that in some of these countries, the Russians may have been "pushing at an open door." Pakistan, for instance, might have fallen apart on its own with the Russians showing up "to restore order" and of course to secure the nuclear stockpiles. China might even have gotten sucked into that themselves if they were still active, ALSO trying to maintain order but in the process antagonizing India further and spending money that would push them closer to the edge of falling down themselves.

Oh, I wasn't talking about the US, just using them as an example. My apologies for the confusion.
I was thinking more of the smaller countries of the EU(Denmark/Norway/Sweden/Finland/Holland/Belgium/Poland), who apparently kept most of the EU together while it's major economies(Germany/Italy/France/Spain) were paralysed by incidental- and Russia-inspired internal turmoil.

Or shit, Australia.
PACS does have vital energy interests in the Gulf as well, and both Malaysia and Indonesia are co-religionists.
A lot of those countries don't have intelligence agencies that operate overseas with government-destabilizing large scale organizations as enthusiastically as the CIA.

It's a question of what assets your nation even has before they undergo rounds of budget cuts and whatnot.
 
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Strong words, really. Most of what they did was die slowly enough that the major economies had time to get over their seizures.
Just trying to help worldbuild some coherence into the background AU the original author saddled us with.
EDIT That means, in part, establishing a floor on how helpless the European Union could have been and for how long without getting et.

As I see it? The continent's strategic planners have to be paying close attention.
Alexei is willing to genocide millions of people in the Gulf states, and to underwrite Victoria's policies in North America. There is precisely zero reason to assume that Europe would enjoy some sort of immunity.

They will have prepared accordingly.

While they lost the Baltics, Romania, Bulgaria and Moldova? Someone deterred the Russian Empire from eating the 5 million man population of Finland, despite Helsinki being 300km from St Petersburg and literally 90km across the Gulf of Finland from Talinn in Estonia. And from anschlussing the 360,000 man island of Iceland. And the 60,000 man island of Greenland.

Or indeed from driving a couple army groups for the Channel along the excellent roads and transport infrastructure that the EU has spent so many billions of euros investing in. Can even avoid Poland and it's defenses and go through Romania-Hungary-Austria right into the heart of the EU.
Or doing the whole Gulf thing with vital infrastructure.The Kaliningrad enclave puts much of Europe under threat from Iskander-class ballistic and cruise missiles in minutes anyway, and GRU teams used to train to sabotage vital infrastructure.



As of 2016, there were two nuclear powers in Europe:
The French Force du Frappe, with it's 290 warheads. The British nuclear arsenal, with 120-180 warheads.
Both nation states splintered and collapsed during the Collapse by WoG.

Dead or comatose nations cant maintain nukes in launch on warning status.

There are a bunch of nuclear-threshold states on the continent, including places as small as Sweden, but they mainly weapon-share with the US through NATO. And POTUS shat the bed in 2016, and got the US kicked off the continent,so there weren't likely to be many US nuclear stockpiles lying around, unless US military units retreated to Europe.

The EU had to maintain military deterrence against an existential threat with what they had.
With Germany lacking a nuclear program, and fixed in political paralysis for much of the danger period, and the other big players in various states of economic, military and political paralysis, the onus would largely have fallen on the small countries.

While not everyone would have had the...enthusiasm of Poland, Poland could not have carried it alone.

Er, you mean the California Republic? Well by that point they were dealing with a big refugee crisis, they were still very much a rump state compared to the US's overall resources, they had multiple problems closer to home including likely economic chaos caused by the destabilization and collapse of China.

The simple fact, and I do say FACT because I mean fact, is that the entire basis of Russian power in this setting comes from there having been effectively no coherent entity in shape to organize power projection across continental distances in the late 2030s and early 2040s. That's just plain what happened.

The US collapsing, combined with the overall effects of trade disruption and pandemics crushing economies (as COVID-19 is now obligingly illustrating), does so much damage that even where countries maintained cohesion and didn't fall into temporary or permanent anarchy, budgets were desperately tight and the prospects of any international adventurism were very, very risky.
Nah, I meant the People's Republic of China.
Which was canonically the Vic first choice for building their power plant complex, and which was involved in Cascadia.
And didn't collapse until the early 2040s.

China would have been a counterweight to Russian plans for Pakistan and the Middle East while it existed. World's largest economy, appetite for petrochemicals for both energy and industrial uses. Places like Iran ad SA would have had alternatives to turn to after the US collapse and EU issues.
It couldn't have torched the region while China could threaten it's eastern borders.

That says to me that the main event in the Middle East kicked off in the 2040s and 2050s.
Which segues with the idea that Victoria was selling female abductees abroad to sex traffickers after the Pacific War, without intruding into an already saturated market.

It also suggests that the Chinese splintering was induced by subversion of its political structures, and not of itself an organic reaction to a set of international reverses. Which would help explain the quiet, cold rage of a nation, and the reported zero tolerance for anything even resembling Russian contact in the Chinese democracy, where, and I quote:.
Oh, the UN's fucking gone. It went the way of the League of Nations; nobody thought it worth their time anymore, and they just stopped turning up.

Contested. But, to many people's immense frustration, you can actually usually find somebody who'll take rubles. It's not at the same level of dominance as the dollar once was, and in particular if you're handing rubles to someone in China it had better be to an intelligence officer accompanied by a detailed and innocent description of how you came by them, but the ruble is on top. In order after that it's the Euro, the Australian dollar, and the renminbi. (Being China is suffering, even when you're on your way up.)

The New York dollar is not accepted in many places, but it is one of the stabler ones; FCNY's economy has a lot of foreign support, their economy has a massive financial component, and nobody actually believes that the Victorians have the balls to provoke obliteration by Free Europe.

OK, that timeline stuff is relevant. Aside from the part where you said '19' when you meant '20' like three times. :p

...

Though I think you're to some extent downplaying the possibility that in some of these countries, the Russians may have been "pushing at an open door." Pakistan, for instance, might have fallen apart on its own with the Russians showing up "to restore order" and of course to secure the nuclear stockpiles. China might even have gotten sucked into that themselves if they were still active, ALSO trying to maintain order but in the process antagonizing India further and spending money that would push them closer to the edge of falling down themselves.
Whoops:oops:

Winning the war has never been the issue; Russia fought and won a war with Georgia in the 2000s, and is currently destabilzing Ukraine. They can punch out the Central Asian republics as well, no problem.Winning the peace, on the other hand, and actually getting access to resources from those places, instead of having to spend resources holding onto it like we saw in the early 2000s in Chechnya?

That's harder. That takes time, and hearts.

I actually expect Pakistan, for example, to be more institutionally resilient than you give it credit for.
It's lost three wars without collapsing and has at various times had to deal with the Soviet Union as a neighbor, as well as India. And it shares no land borders with the Russian Empire, while having a border with it's strategic ally China.

Tripping them up and bashing them on the back of the head while rifling their pockets without eating multiple nukes to the face would have taken a significant amount of doing. And wouldn't even have been feasible until after the PRC collapsed, because Pakistan is important to China.

Part of China's infrastructure investment has been to cultivate Pakistan as an ally where trade can go overland from China to deepwater ports on the Indian Ocean, bypassing India's ability to blockade it's supply lines from the Middle East and Suez. They have a 43-year lease on the Pakistani port of Gwadar, for example, and are investing in upgrading it.

There's good odds that China has been quietly funding Pakistani recovery right now in this AU as a strategic imperative as soon as they(China) put themselves back together. And the Indian intervention has undoubtedly driven them even further into China's arms. After all, from the pov of both nations, India has demonstrated that the worst fears of their most paranoid analysts didn't encompass the possible worst-case scenarios.

A lot of those countries don't have intelligence agencies that operate overseas with government-destabilizing large scale organizations as enthusiastically as the CIA. It's a question of what assets your nation even has before they undergo rounds of budget cuts and whatnot.
Large-scale, no.
But the Euro agencies have tended to be more focused.
The Dutch were the ones who turned up the Russian internet influence operation in 2016, for example.

Madman strategy in this case would be something like brokering access of information or industrial equipment to a potential target in Alexei's path, like giving the Iranians a legup on weapons development.
The international relations version of throwing explosive litter out the window of your car.
 
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Nah, I meant the People's Republic of China.
Which was canonically the Vic first choice for building their power plant complex, and which was involved in Cascadia.
And didn't collapse until the early 2040s.

China would have been a counterweight to Russian plans for Pakistan and the Middle East while it existed. World's largest economy, appetite for petrochemicals for both energy and industrial uses. Places like Iran ad SA would have had alternatives to turn to after the US collapse and EU issues.
It couldn't have torched the region while China could threaten it's eastern borders.

That says to me that the main event in the Middle East kicked off in the 2040s and 2050s.
Which segues with the idea that Victoria was selling female abductees abroad to sex traffickers after the Pacific War, without intruding into an already saturated market.

It also suggests that the Chinese splintering was induced by subversion of its political structures, and not of itself an organic reaction to a set of international reverses. Which would help explain the quiet, cold rage of a nation, and the reported zero tolerance for anything even resembling Russian contact in the Chinese democracy, where, and I quote:.
The PRC was a counterweight to Alexander's operations in the Middle East, but I wouldn't put much weight on them being as active a counterweight as they could be in the modern day. Like, they did suffer in the Collapse. For much of the 2020s and into the 2030s you saw them making moves to try and match Alexander, even though, unlike him, they hadn't had the good grace to come out stupidly early. While they were successful sometimes, the result is that they were exerting effort they couldn't necessarily afford to in a constant struggle for dominance. Like, the collapse of the international markets fucking hurts an export economy. Much of what they were doing was simply trying to rebuild their markets, all while their economy was in a free fall and a hostile great power was actively fucking with them. Alexander managed to force them to burn through a lot of resources, and they completely missed Japan's maneuverings that led them into Russia's corner. By then, they were already elbow-deep in Cascadia, it was becoming increasingly clear that the PRC had overestimated itself and grossly overextended in its efforts to project influence into North America, they were losing ground on a dozen fronts, there was an increasingly-powerful Iranian faction that talked with Alexander a lot and how the fuck did we miss that, and-

>John Rumford has entered the chat

-cue China finally collapsing, with everything splintering at once.

So, while you are correct that China was active in maintaining an oil supply from the Middle East in the early days, it did not precisely mean business as usual. Quite aside from the disruption to trade that all of the super-plagues wrought, the Middle East's small national oil producers like Qatar, the UAE, et. al. likely collapsed before Alexander even had to do anything to them. Alexander would also be making preliminary moves along the Mediterranean coast, and discreetly trying to destabilize the region; your hypothesis of him exploiting refugee flows very much was a favored tool of his. Saudi Arabia, with its borders awash in revolution and a constant influx of refugees, had its hands full even before Russia and China started working at cross purposes within their borders. And that while China -- while committed to maintaining an oil supply for themselves -- was busy wildly overextending itself and trimming its commitments in the Middle East day by day (just for a while, we promise, until our investments in Mexico pay off- and they're gone. Um, sorry, we'll need to withdraw a bit more, project in the Northern Confederation, you know how it is, it'll be a great return- and it's gone. Hah. Haha. Uh...little bit more, just some off the top, the revolutionaries in Dammam aren't a huge deal yes we know they are bombing tanker vessels we are kind of busy right now, we'll be back, just need to shore up our efforts in Cascadia and we'll-).

So, while the main event, as you put it, of Alexander actually launching a conventional invasion would have had to wait a bit on account of China, he would have laid a lot of the groundwork and acquired several dependencies through less overt means leading up to that point. In fact, I'd honestly say he could have gotten away with the invasion before the PRC even collapsed, assuming he laid some groundwork and made the whole enterprise look even a little bit legitimate. Not because China would have bought or been able to tolerate that, but because, in the final years, they simply wouldn't have realistically had the capacity to outright intervene, unless they cared to escalate things to a nuclear crisis -- which would make them the bad guy. And, of course, in the run-up to this, most of the oil producers would be in no operational shape, and Saudi Arabia's practical export capacity would be rapidly dwindling.

I'd say a conventional invasion would be possible, on the grounds of, "China can't actually afford this trouble right now," as early as 2038.
 
Hasn't Alexander ever heard the old saying of never start a land war in asia?

i'm just surprised with all these balls in the air he isn't having more major problems even as the worlds currently sole superpower.
 
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It would be a small miracle if Belgium managed to keep itself together.
They pulled it off all through the Cold War.

I'm not Belgian, but this isn't like the Basque separatist movements. They weren't running around bombing each other.
I dont really consider the peacetime squabbling of the Walloons and the Flemish political movements to continue in the face of a couple operational maneuver groups positioned on the Ukraine border.
The PRC was a counterweight
*snip*
This is an exercise to help you establish a level of plausibility for a low plausibility event.
So if you want to go with that, I cant see any obvious holes at the moment.

Assuming of course that this:
And, of course, in the run-up to this, most of the oil producers would be in no operational shape, and Saudi Arabia's practical export capacity would be rapidly dwindling.
Didn't push crash investment in the stabler nations of Europe and Asia as they went full Fischer-Tropsch/hydrogen economy while electrifying what they can with nuclear and renewables, or even coal.
It's even Keynesian to throw money at infrastructure in a recession.

I will say that if you're going with this? That you might want to consider that one of the factors that is affecting California's intent to make a bid for independence now is that they have established, or are close to establishing, energy independence from Russian- and Russian-influenced energy sources. Enough that Russia can't choke them any more by yanking the leash.

Whether thats entirely from domestic sources, or deals with some foreign powers, is up to you.
 
They pulled it off all through the Cold War.

I'm not Belgian, but this isn't like the Basque separatist movements. They weren't running around bombing each other.
I dont really consider the peacetime squabbling of the Walloons and the Flemish political movements to continue in the face of a couple operational maneuver groups positioned on the Ukraine border.

This is an exercise to help you establish a level of plausibility for a low plausibility event.
So if you want to go with that, I cant see any obvious holes at the moment.

Assuming of course that this:
Didn't push crash investment in the stabler nations of Europe and Asia as they went full Fischer-Tropsch/hydrogen economy while electrifying what they can with nuclear and renewables, or even coal.
It's even Keynesian to throw money at infrastructure in a recession.

I will say that if you're going with this? That you might want to consider that one of the factors that is affecting California's intent to make a bid for independence now is that they have established, or are close to establishing, energy independence from Russian- and Russian-influenced energy sources. Enough that Russia can't choke them any more by yanking the leash.

Whether thats entirely from domestic sources, or deals with some foreign powers, is up to you.
I...was? I'm not sure what Alexander's maneuvering to gain dominance over the oil market in order to precipitate its demise has to do with California having or lacking energy independence decades later, but I certainly did not have Cali going, "Well, our economy relies on Russian or Russian-allied oil imports and we have no alternative, so this seems the perfect time to revolt!"

As for states exploring oil alternatives in response to a growing Russian stranglehold on the oil market...working as intended?
 
I...was? I'm not sure what Alexander's maneuvering to gain dominance over the oil market in order to precipitate its demise has to do with California having or lacking energy independence decades later, but I certainly did not have Cali going, "Well, our economy relies on Russian or Russian-allied oil imports and we have no alternative, so this seems the perfect time to revolt!"
I think we're talking past each other a little here.
I was just saying that maybe achieving energy independence, or the international energy market achieving energy independence, from Russian sources was a major factor in California's politicians establishing a timeline for breakout.

As for states exploring oil alternatives in response to a growing Russian stranglehold on the oil market...working as intended?
Europe & China: *open new coal plants*
Alexander: :mad::mad::mad::mad:
:V
 
I think we're talking past each other a little here.
I was just saying that maybe achieving energy independence, or the international energy market achieving energy independence, from Russian sources was a major factor in California's politicians establishing a timeline for breakout.
Ah. Seems plausible, yes
Europe & China: *open new coal plants*
Alexander: :mad::mad::mad::mad:
:V
I mean, to an extent, yes, but coal is only ever going to be a temporary measure when Alexander is resurfacing Russia with 4th-5th generation nuclear reactors, and he realizes that. :lol:
 
Given that Alexander actually seems to care about limiting climate change, he may well be sharing whatever developments he finds in such a way that they are easy to duplicate and adapt as one's own- sort of anti-patenting them. So that in effect, Europe and other places are choosing between absurdly efficient clean power supplies that are practically open-source, or oil, or coal. Oil means being a Russian puppet, but coal has a lot of drawbacks.
 
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