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Type Moon General

linkhyrule5 said:
Yeah, I dunno. I feel like Gil did make the same fundamental mistake as Goetia did: when faced with 'the inevitable result of humanity's progress', rather than challenge the 'inevitability' he turned his fangs on humanity.

Well, I don't think he'd completely try to wipe out humanity either -- but a) I'm not sure that you need to to qualify as a Beast, and b) even if you did, it's possible that he's just intentionally trying to cull the lamest timelines that would otherwise 'succeed', or something.
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If Gilgamesh wants to destroy mankind he would have destroyed Fuyuki the moment he decide to destroy all humans. He's technically culling the herd from the weak and the worthless by unleashing All the Worlds Evil on mankind. If humanity cannot stand up to it's own evil and wiped out. then they're worthless and deserve to die anyway. Even then he acknowledge that there will be those who survived, and thus they are worthy to be ruled by him.

Goetia just plain don't understand humanity to begin with.
 
Xerxes said:
If Gilgamesh wants to destroy mankind he would have destroyed Fuyuki the moment he decide to destroy all humans. He's technically culling the herd from the weak and the worthless by unleashing All the Worlds Evil on mankind. If humanity cannot stand up to it's own evil and wiped out. then they're worthless and deserve to die anyway. Even then he acknowledge that there will be those who survived, and thus they are worthy to be ruled by him.

Goetia just plain don't understand humanity to begin with.
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Well, yes -- which is why I stated as part of the premise that that didn't happen. Instead, the very first time Gil was summoned and incarnated was even farther into the future, in ... like, the idea I had in mind was something kind of Culture-ish, where most people are perfectly happy/healthy but completely unnecessary and ennui is a big common problem. Hence, Boredom. It's a future that we as humans might accept as good enough, but Gil would be utterly disgusted with -- and if he literally couldn't find a single necessary human/human who really pushed their limits, maybe he'd be pissed off enough?

Anyway, like I said, I don't think you need to try to destroy all humanity to be a Beast -- just to have the potential, and to turn against humanity out of love and cause serious world-scale harm to it. Gil can be a Beast without wanting to literally end humanity -- he'd still be an 'end' to human progress, a 'reset button' that returned to null six thousand years of history.
 
Would Tohno Shiki attack a vampire/Dead Apostle with his Nanaya persona instinctively, if one appeared before him? Or would he only do so if they tried to harm him? The only example I've got so far while playing Tsukihime is Satsuki, who's somewhat of a special case due to him both not knowing much about his heritage/the Moonlit World at the time and actively trying to help Satsuki. I hear another Tsukihime character is a vampire too, but appears in the sequel I've yet to play - how did he react to her?

Can he even recognize supernatural creatures at a glance, come to think of it? He doesn't pick up on Akiha's oni blood at all till she undergoes Reversion... I think (only just passed the alcohol party scene in Akiha's route), and the only time Nanaya takes over and makes him kill someone is when he spots Arceuid in her route - who's somewhat special for being a massive beacon of supernatural vs the average vampire, ghost and so on.

Speaking of vampire/Dead Apostle, what sort of symptoms do they experience upon first becoming one? Satsuki mentioned an intense thirst and dry throat, pain everywhere (due to her body's cells dissolving?) and an inability to venture into sunlight. She also tried to infect Shiki with her blood to turn him into one like her, mentioning she'd done tests on random citizens earlier alongside feeding, and Shiki assumes she must've experienced a far worse pain than he does once he gets bitten and 'less than a mouthful' of blood is injected into him.

But, doesn't she become a vampire due to Nrvnqsr killing everyone (including her and her parents) at the hotel they were staying at with the various animals making up his reality marble? I can't quite see Nrvnqsr intentionally trying to create The Dead/a Dead Apostle like that, as it seemed like he was just feeding on folk then. Can vampirism occur accidentally when a Dead Apostle kills someone?
 
Mizu said:
Would Tohno Shiki attack a vampire/Dead Apostle with his Nanaya persona instinctively, if one appeared before him?
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...Isn't that how Arc got sliced and diced?
Mizu said:
But, doesn't she become a vampire due to Nrvnqsr killing everyone (including her and her parents) at the hotel they were staying at with the various animals making up his reality marble? I can't quite see Nrvnqsr intentionally trying to create The Dead/a Dead Apostle like that, as it seemed like he was just feeding on folk then. Can vampirism occur accidentally when a Dead Apostle kills someone?
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Do factor in that Sacchin is a freak of nature.
 
Grue said:
...Isn't that how Arc got sliced and diced?
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It is, but Arc is a True Ancestor, not the (relatively) more common Dead Apostle vampires - I figure she'd be way 'louder' on his instinctual supernatural radar. He doesn't go Nanaya when first encountering Nrvnqsr Chaos, either, needing a bit of time and/or about-to-die moments to get those instincts to kick in.
Grue said:
Do factor in that Sacchin is a freak of nature.
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Still doesn't explain why she revived as a vampire if it was unintentional, though. Or are you saying she'd revive as one regardless of how she died, due to her crazy potential? As, uh, that's definitely unexpected and would overturn my understanding of methods on how one can become a vampire, if so.
 
linkhyrule5 said:
Well, yes -- which is why I stated as part of the premise that that didn't happen. Instead, the very first time Gil was summoned and incarnated was even farther into the future, in ... like, the idea I had in mind was something kind of Culture-ish, where most people are perfectly happy/healthy but completely unnecessary and ennui is a big common problem. Hence, Boredom. It's a future that we as humans might accept as good enough, but Gil would be utterly disgusted with -- and if he literally couldn't find a single necessary human/human who really pushed their limits, maybe he'd be pissed off enough?

Anyway, like I said, I don't think you need to try to destroy all humanity to be a Beast -- just to have the potential, and to turn against humanity out of love and cause serious world-scale harm to it. Gil can be a Beast without wanting to literally end humanity -- he'd still be an 'end' to human progress, a 'reset button' that returned to null six thousand years of history.
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Kinda shot yourself in the foot there with the setting. A world like that is totally going to be removed, just because the humans there accepts it doesn't mean it couldn't be pruned. By all rights, the world is already deemed a dead end for humanity in the first place. If the potential of destroying a world designated for removal is all it takes to be a Beast, Moriarty would've been one by now.
 
Mizu said:
n why she revived as a vampire if it was unintentional, though. Or are you saying she'd revive as one regardless of how she died, due to her crazy potential? As, uh, that's definitely unexpected and would overturn my understanding of methods on how one can become a vampire, if so.
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The latter. Sacchin is literally a freak of nature with innate magical potential so high that, despite being literal nobody, it caused her to jump over the first two basic forms of undead the usual victims of Dead Apostle become and straight to vampire itself.

Naturally, we could only have one freakishly powerful vampire waifu, so Sacchin got axed anyway :V.
 
Mizu said:
It is, but Arc is a True Ancestor, not the (relatively) more common Dead Apostle vampires - I figure she'd be way 'louder' on his instinctual supernatural radar. He doesn't go Nanaya when first encountering Nrvnqsr Chaos, either, needing a bit of time and/or about-to-die moments to get those instincts to kick in.
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As far as I can tell, Shiki falls back on his Nanaya instincts when he's not actually expecting things - when he's surprised by supernatural things, like with Arc or when he was hanging around with SHIKI as a kid, they activate.
 
Mizu said:
It is, but Arc is a True Ancestor, not the (relatively) more common Dead Apostle vampires - I figure she'd be way 'louder' on his instinctual supernatural radar. He doesn't go Nanaya when first encountering Nrvnqsr Chaos, either, needing a bit of time and/or about-to-die moments to get those instincts to kick in.

Still doesn't explain why she revived as a vampire if it was unintentional, though. Or are you saying she'd revive as one regardless of how she died, due to her crazy potential? As, uh, that's definitely unexpected and would overturn my understanding of methods on how one can become a vampire, if so.
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A friend looked over DAs a while back, from what I remember, they're constantly in pain, can't feel any warmth, suffer a constant thirst, and develop contempt and loathing for humanity.
 
Squirtodyle said:
A friend looked over DAs a while back, from what I remember, they're constantly in pain, can't feel any warmth, suffer a constant thirst, and develop contempt and loathing for humanity.
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From the Melty Blood games Sacchin doesn't seen to suffer from any of that aside from the bloodthirst, seriously one of her specials is ripping the opponent apart at very fast speeds and even in the story her bloodthirst never comes up

Then again she is friends with Sion and Sion does have medicine to hold back her own latent DA-ness so ye?
 
I always attributed Sacchin never suffering from most of the side-effects but bloodthirst to her age. Most DA who have been human are well over human lifespan in their age, so they are probably suffering some epic soul-rot. Or they have transformed via magecraft, which world tries to reject, which only jumpstarts rot. So they need to consume others to even reinforce their existence.

Meanwhile, while Satsuki cheated the system, she did it in somewhat natural way, so she is still seen as 16/17 year old girl by the world, so she just needs to drink blood as a new method of sustenance.

Though it has been a looooong while since I played Tsukihime VN, so I don't remember how exactly Sacchin's condition has been described.
 
From what I remember Satsuki was creepy as a Vampire

Gladly drank blood and became yandere for Shiki wanting to turn him into a vampire too, she even complains that there's 'something' inside Shiki (Akiha's lifeforce) getting in the way

Melty Blood just waves that away because the Satsuki there is technically a recreation by Tatari that remained around and the focus changed to Comedic Gag character
 
I wasn't aware Satsuki was freaky.

So how would her strangeness factor in if she's turned by Carmilla instead?

Carmilla being exceptionally good at pretending to be human.
 
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Xerxes said:
Kinda shot yourself in the foot there with the setting. A world like that is totally going to be removed, just because the humans there accepts it doesn't mean it couldn't be pruned. By all rights, the world is already deemed a dead end for humanity in the first place. If the potential of destroying a world designated for removal is all it takes to be a Beast, Moriarty would've been one by now.
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Only if it's not the normal, inevitable progression for all humanity in the Tree of Time. I named Boredom a Sin and Gil a Beast for a reason -- as I see it, it's something inevitable, barring heroic effort.

Individuals love being important, but humans loathe the idea of other people being important - because if someone 'important' fucks up, their mistakes affect everyone around them. The trend that Gil's noticed, that responsibility and 'necessity' is diluted? That's to some extent intentional; we spread importance around where possible and where we can, we remove it entirely, replaced by infallible machines and automated systems. -- But by the same token, it means that most people can't be said to be 'necessary' and spend much of their lives seeking purpose instead of having it from birth.

That's why he's a Beast. 'Death by Ennui' is a threat to humanity on the same order as 'death by competition' or 'death by excessive pity'; but at the same time it's a natural result of 'our wisdom as sapient beings.'
 
Red Hare Profile

STR: B
CON:EX
AGI:B+
MGI:C
LCK: C
NP: B
The Flying General, whom is spoken of in many historical books and tales in regards to the beginning of the Annals of Three Kingdoms, Lu Bu.
Boasting peerless valor, the legendary general and man of war who had continued to fight until the end of his life is said to have galloped through the battlefield together with his favorite horse, named Red Hare.

"And now, Lu Bu had become one with his Noble Phantasm as well as his favorite horse Red Hare; truly a union of rider and horse! Exceeding even the centaurs spoken of in the ancient Greece mythology, I have achieved a perfect union of man, horse, armor, and weapon, and manifested as the strongest horseman warrior! Thus, I am Lu Bu. Neeeiiiigh!"

Neiiigh. Such passionate words leaves no room for doubt.

Height/Weight: 250cm/400kg and more
Source: Historical fact, Annals of the Three Kingdoms, others
Region: China
Alignment: True Neutral
Gender: Male

His favorite food is carrot. But still, this horse sure got some good voice.

The magnificent "Red Hare" is inscribed as his true name.
He says nothing in regards to this fact.

Riding: EX
Manages all manners of ride. However, due to his condition (?) of a union between man and horse the moment he manifested as a Rider, he no longer has any need to ride.

Thousand Miles Dash (Horse) : EX
The inexhaustible physical strength which makes possible of long period, long distance movement. To add, the AGI parameter steeply rises temporarily, and during a sprint with all his might it is also able to display the effect where his CON as well as STR parameter rise.

All the Martial Arts (Horse): A
Through a combat skill cultivated to cover a wide range of grounds, it becomes possible to correspond against all manners of combat situation. He is able to immediately deal with unusual battles such as midair combat or underwater combat, and even unknown circumstances in which he has no experience in, through his fostered skill and experience.

Combat Maneuver: B
A mastery of mounted combat. Gives plus bonus to attack check as well as damage when mounted. There is the demerit of reduced fighting strength during dismounted status; however, as he is always in the state of union between man and horse (?), this demerit does not exist for him.

False - Five Soldiers of the War God
Rank: A
Type: Anti-Unit/Anti-Army
Range: 1~40

Imitation God Force. The Noble Phantasm that Lu Bu possesses as a Heroic Spirit, the so-called Houtengageki; he does not possess of it. What he unleashes as a Noble Phantasm is a great discharge..... which is fairly conscious of the "Five Soldiers of the War God"'s shooting mode. That being said, it is not a discharge of the likes of magic energy light in great caliber; the arrow which is fired from the tightly drawn bowstring is, surprisingly, an "enormous spear".

As a result of trying to find a large arrow, one which possess a force behind it, perhaps he judged that "I guess it'd be faster if I just fire a spear instead..."
 
Vanargand said:
From what I remember Satsuki was creepy as a Vampire

Gladly drank blood and became yandere for Shiki wanting to turn him into a vampire too, she even complains that there's 'something' inside Shiki (Akiha's lifeforce) getting in the way

Melty Blood just waves that away because the Satsuki there is technically a recreation by Tatari that remained around and the focus changed to Comedic Gag character
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The yandere parts were, at least, sort of always there from the start, and were just exacerbated by Sacchin's rather miserable circumstances. I'd say they're less a result of her becoming a monster, and more a result of her being scared of herself (she's now a vampire against her own will), scared of being alone (she's a seventeen year old facing the prospect of never being able to safely interact with humans again, and even being hunted down by the Church if she tries), scared of being homeless (since she ran away from home) and scared in general. Dragging Shiki, who she idolizes to no small extent, into her situation would fix most of those issues (Shiki would both keep her company and protect her), and in the end having an actual friend willing to live out of cardboard boxes with her in the form of Sion did wonders for calming her down.

And Sacchin isn't a Tatari creation, she simply didn't die in the hypothetical route that leads into Melty Blood.
 
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GilliamYaeger said:
And Sacchin isn't a Tatari creation, she simply didn't die in the hypothetical route that leads into Melty Blood.
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In the game timeline(s), yes, she is still 'alive'.

In the manga however, everyone who suddenly can fight or returned from dead is just the result of Tatari fuckery (Kohaku&Hisui for the former, and many, many others, Sacchin included, for the latter).
 
Omida said:
In the game timeline(s), yes, she is still 'alive'.

In the manga however, everyone who suddenly can fight or returned from dead is just the result of Tatari fuckery (Kohaku&Hisui for the former, and many, many others, Sacchin included, for the latter).
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So what you're saying is that the manga accepts that Tsukihime is never getting that remake.:V
 
Squirtodyle said:
A friend looked over DAs a while back, from what I remember, they're constantly in pain, can't feel any warmth, suffer a constant thirst, and develop contempt and loathing for humanity.
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Satsuki mentioned feeling that when Shiki encountered her during Akiha's route, yeah. Makes me wonder if Zelretch suffers the same, or if being several century old (and constantly refilling his lost Od via Third Magic) gets around those issues.
Vanargand said:
From the Melty Blood games Sacchin doesn't seen to suffer from any of that aside from the bloodthirst, seriously one of her specials is ripping the opponent apart at very fast speeds and even in the story her bloodthirst never comes up

Then again she is friends with Sion and Sion does have medicine to hold back her own latent DA-ness so ye?
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Wouldn't vampires suffer less from those downsides to their condition as time goes on, or in Satsuki's case from her massive potential and being a vampire for more than literally a night or two? Melty Blood's a year post-Tsukihime IIRC, after all.
GilliamYaeger said:
The yandere parts were, at least, sort of always there from the start, and were just exacerbated by Sacchin's rather miserable circumstances. I'd say they're less a result of her becoming a monster, and more a result of her being scared of herself (she's now a vampire against her own will), scared of being alone (she's a seventeen year old facing the prospect of never being able to safely interact with humans again, and even being hunted down by the Church if she tries), scared of being homeless (since she ran away from home) and scared in general.
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Satsuki ran away from home? I was under the impression she'd gone to the hotel Nrvnqsr attacked with her family, at least in the manga and Near Side routes, and thus became an orphaned vampire due to that? I assume she got attacked by Roa's vampires in Far Side, seeing as she was wandering the streets looking for that person rumoured to be Shiki wandering around late at night out of concern for her crush & classmate, so in Far Side routes I guess you're right.

Would the Church hunt down vampires for any interactions with humans at all, even if you weren't harming them or treating them different to how you were as a human? I mean, Zelretch seems to interact with humans fine in the Clock Tower, but then again he's also massively powerful.
 
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Mizu said:
Would the Church hunt down vampires for any interactions with humans at all, even if you weren't harming them or treating them different to how you were as a human? I mean, Zelretch seems to interact with humans fine in the Clock Tower, but then again he's also massively powerful.
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I guess Merem Solomon and Curry Du Marche are the exceptions.
 
There is also Enhance(?) who is suposed to be a blatant Dante expy and kinda hunts other vampires, but I don't remember anyone's stance on him. Probably something along the lines of "we have better things to worry about than the guy who does our job for us".

Curry is the crazy guy who managed to turn his bloodthirst into currythirst, soooo... Does he even qualify even anymore? Even if, there are more pressing ones to hunt.

Meanwhile Merem offered his services to the Church in exchange for access to their collection of artifacts, so I guess it's more of temporary truce, especially since he is supposed to be die hard Crimson Moon loyalist.

...


And then there is Alcatraz who managed to trap himself in his own inescapable prison :V.
 
linkhyrule5 said:
Only if it's not the normal, inevitable progression for all humanity in the Tree of Time. I named Boredom a Sin and Gil a Beast for a reason -- as I see it, it's something inevitable, barring heroic effort.

Individuals love being important, but humans loathe the idea of other people being important - because if someone 'important' fucks up, their mistakes affect everyone around them. The trend that Gil's noticed, that responsibility and 'necessity' is diluted? That's to some extent intentional; we spread importance around where possible and where we can, we remove it entirely, replaced by infallible machines and automated systems. -- But by the same token, it means that most people can't be said to be 'necessary' and spend much of their lives seeking purpose instead of having it from birth.

That's why he's a Beast. 'Death by Ennui' is a threat to humanity on the same order as 'death by competition' or 'death by excessive pity'; but at the same time it's a natural result of 'our wisdom as sapient beings.'
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I mean outside of extenuating circumstance wouldn't that mean every timeline is setup to eventually be culled by the system.
 
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