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Well, for me, its my first time seeing Raiga in a manga or anime.
Type Moon General
My current take on how the proposed Fourth War ended is this:
Berserker dies in a blaze of glory and crazy screaming about Oppressor's, probably at the hands of Team Greek. Caster managed to talk into Kirei to getting in contact with his inner psychopath resulting in the Fuyuki Fire. Without a wound that doesn't heal inflicted on his Servant Kiritsugu doesn't lock onto Kayneth as much but does end up killing him. I'm inclined to say that he just snipes Kayneth while Siegfried and Karna are beating the stuffing out of each other.
The Team-up of Waver & Kariya have a very good run with the power of two powerful and allied Servants. As noted I'd say they kill Berserker and likely Caster before they go. I'm inclined to have that Archer pushed past her breaking point by running into some of Team Assassin's leavings manages to talk Kariya into launching a full scale assault on Zouken to try and save Sakura. When everything is said and done Zouken is dead and Sakura is saved. Kariya passes on content along with Archer who is happy she could save at-least one child. Waver decides to look after Sakura as a favor to his departed ally.
The final battle is Rider (maybe alongside a running on fumes and Independent Action Archer) vs Saber. Thanks to Kerry burning two command seals Saber pulls a win. Kirei having been prodded to the edge by Caster before his death joins up with Team Assassin, who have stayed under the radar and points them at the Grail. Assassin was probably the one that kidnapped Iri and killed Maiya in this version of events, which given both are mother's fits her thematically. Kirei and Kiritsugu have their climatic battle. Assassin is trying to delay a weakened Saber long enough for Kirei to win and give them the Grail.
The mud comes forth. Kiritsugu uses his last Command Seal to have Saber destroy the Grail. The Fire happens. Assassin thanks to being exposed to the Mud gets a physical body. Kirei has his revelation amidst the burning city. Saber gives his heart to save an on the brink of death Shirou and fades away with Kiritsugu thanking him.
Okay then, here's my take a what the Fifth Grail War lineup in this AU would look like.
Shirou as previously suggest summons Frankenstein's Monster as Berserker. This Shirou lacks Unlimited Blade Works/Avalon but has Siegfried's heart beating in his chest.
Rin as per canon summons a Servant with his own agenda, who is weak on paper but has a impressive bag of tricks including a Reality Marble. Sadly for her its not EMIYA but Caster - Avicebron.
Illya summons a powerhouse of a Servant burning with rage in the form of Saber - Mordred. As they both are artificial humans with daddy issues, tempers and vengeful sides they get along swimmingly.
Atomic Gatorade calls up a dark anti-hero who has been somewhat demonized by legend. Lancer Vlad Dracula is less then pleased with his Master's child sacrifice plans and after impaling him goes off to find someone else to make a contract with. I'm going to suggest that Lancer runs into and contracts with Caren who is in town to look up her father.
Sakura Velvet who has had a decent few years in England as Waver's "little sister" hears about the war and decides to take part. She summons a Greek Archer in acknowledgment of the two heroes who made her rescue possible. Chiron gets along with her fine.
Kirei perhaps as a side-effect of being exposed to Team Serial Killer doesn't bother with the run around with Bazett and just summons his own Servant to act as his tool in the war. He gets Rider- Astolfo who seems to be cursed with being summoned in every war by a sadist.
Team Serial Killer have enjoyed the time since the last war, travelling the world killing where they wish and sending Kirei postcards from time to time. When their "old friend" tells them the Grail War is starting up early they decide to come over and play in Fuyuki again. Due to the glitching Grail System the incarnated Jack fills the slot for the Fifth War Assassin.
How does this mess of a Grail War go?
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Mizu
Software Developer
- Location
- Victoria, Australia
Maiya's a mother? I thought she was just a fellow bounty hunter like Kiritsugu who he was friends/occasional lovers with?
A detail of her backstory was she was raped and had a child before Kiritsugu rescued her. The kid in question actually turns up in Fate Strange Fake.
all fictions
I hate you! (it's not against the rules!)
- Location
- Mons Regius
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Zouken dying is pretty SOD breaking. Managing to steal Sakura from him maybe, but killing him outright? In his own Workshop? Pretty much implausible.
Not sure why it's still Velvet and not El-Melloi since Kayneth still died.
Not sure why it's still Velvet and not El-Melloi since Kayneth still died.
Well on consideration .....
Rin's probably not living through this war. She canonically has a massive blind-spot towards "my Servant is planning to betray me" and Caster needs a high quality magus sacrifice to act as the Core for his Adam Noble Phantasm. Interesting twist this time around its the Fifth War Master & Servants that get to deal with a rampaging Caster summoned Kajuu instead of the Fourth War crowd.
We would likely see a temporary alliance made up of the non evil Master's (Shirou, Illya, Sakura, Caren) in the face of Caster's going big as in canon Fate Zero.
Fair point though I would say that two high grade Servants with Master willing to burn command seals on hand trying to kill someone who doesn't have a Servant is arguably enough to finish off Zouken. But yeah I could see him surviving by the skin of his teeth and lurking in the background of the Fifth War.
Sakura El-Melloi it is then.
Madou Sutegobana
Autocorrupt has been disabled.
- Location
- Twin Realms Mandala
*snickers*
Still wish I could give more than one rating to some posts. I would give this a funny and a like.
Entropy Judge
Recurring Bouts of Misanthropy
Er ... why does Tokiomi, of all people, get Spartacus? I mean, both Waver and Kariya have much better claims to him - Waver is oppressed by the Old/Noble faction of the Clock Tower, Kariya by Zouken. Tokiomi getting Spartacus only works if you decide that he is dead last in priority and that 'reversed compatibility' is better than 'no particular compatibility'.
Vanargand
So tired.....
Waver does try "I am the master shouldn't I be calling the shots here?"
Iskander flicks away that thought
Spartacus would smash Waver's head like a watermelon
- Location
- London
Tokiomi is oppressed by his poor life decisions, naturally
.Also, I would say Atomic Gatorade doesn't get Vlad (he wouldn't want him even, and he bought/hunted for his catalyst). He gets yet another powerful female from roughly the same area: Semiramis.
Wheter it goes better for him than Medea is debatable. He gets brownie points for summoning her for her power (and loses them all for being, well, Atomic Gatorade).
Tokiomi summons in canon an unruly but powerful Servant that could apparently defy command seals and who doesn't care for him, so it seemed only fitting that here he summoned an unruly but powerful that can defy command seals who doesn't care for him.
Also Atlanta with her save children focus and capacity to implode in despair/rage matched up with Kariya far more clearly. Rider - Achilles seemed a respectable match for Waver, different enough from Iskander to avoid being a retell of Fate Zero. So that left Spartacus for Tokiomi.
Tokiomi is oppressed by his poor life decisions, naturally
Also, I would say Atomic Gatorade doesn't get Vlad (he wouldn't want him even, and he bought/hunted for his catalyst). He gets yet another powerful female from roughly the same area: Semiramis.
Wheter it goes better for him than Medea is debatable. He gets brownie points for summoning her for her power (and loses them all for being, well, Atomic Gatorade).
Different flavor of Elf Witch getting summoned works fine for me, Semiramis is an Assassin and Caster but apparently counts for Assassin first so that fills the Fifth War Assassin slot. Leaving the returning Jack to be mysterious Eighth Servant from the last war.
Hmm I do like the notion of Caren ending up with Lancer Vlad, the religious debates would be fascinating. Given her father is acting even more suspicious than canon and may be a suspect in globe trotting serial case I could see her coming to Fuyuki to investigate him and getting a Servant for her trouble.
TheFoxsCloak
Professional Otaku
Entropy Judge
Recurring Bouts of Misanthropy
In canon, he also summons the oldest and most powerful Servant, so ....
Much more important is the timing. Kirei summons his Servant the earliest, at -282:14:41. When that isn't a traditional Assassin - when it's a Caster - Tokiomi is probably going to know something's gone wrong and try to summon immediately. Even if he keeps to canon times, he's definitely ahead of Ryuunosuke and probably ahead of Kayneth, since we know that Kariya, Waver, Kiritsugu, and Tokiomi all summoned at -270:08:57, but Kayneth's summoning time isn't mentioned. So ... a good shot for Tokiomi getting either Lancer or Semiramis ... who is also a betrayer. I'll also point out that Gilgamesh betrays Tokiomi because he finds him boring and thinks Kirei would be interesting/amusing to mess with, whereas Spartacus would betray Tokiomi because he's almost literally a perfect representative of Spartacus's targets.
... Why would that even happen? For that matter, what about Risei? Without Z!Caster's Summon, there's no cause for his death, which means that Kirei doesn't get a glut of Command Seals and therefore doesn't have a bargaining chip with Assassin's Master. It feels like a strange Station of Canon to keep, even if you are explicitly ensuring that a Fifth Grail War takes place, for ... some reason.
EDIT: Also, Irisviel is not going to be functioning anywhere near as well as she did in Canon, thanks to Avalon not working. She had to be lying inside a magic circle when there were still four Servants active, even with it. Without Avalon, she's going to be crippled and couped up inside the castle much earlier. Kiritsugu's tactics are therefore going to change significantly.
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- Location
- Ukraine
This... no, just, no. There are few things I find as SoD breaking as any Master that has summoned Karna dying. No matter how much he is made to job, that is a constant that never changes. He manages to save Jinako's life in CCC. He pulls through for his Master, who is pretty much dead on arrival, in Apo. Heck, he takes down the White Titan in his story mode in Extella, thus ultimately saving Tamamo. I have not seen a single fanfiction where Karna's Master dies, even.
So, yeah, this really doesn't work for me. Crippling him, destroying his Crest - that is fine, and works to remove him from power, leaving the seat to be taken by Reines and for Waver to be appointed as Lord El-Melloi II. Him dying? Completely unreasonable.
Additionally, Zouken being outright killed needs to be explained. The only way I see such an eventuality taking place - and I find such an outcome far-fetched despite coming up with it - is Achilles using his duel field with specifically Zouken's main body within the range of its effect. This is extremely unlikely due to both Achilles' and Zouken's mentality.
I'd say swap Vlad for either Semiramis or Avicebron here. Both have better reasons for being summoned by him. Semiramis brings parallels with Medea as femme fatales in their respective legends. Avicebron, meanwhile, has both a highly compatible mindset and narrative parallels between how Gatorade summoning Medea goes and how Gatorade summoning Avicebron is likely to go, with the added worth brought by the sheer irony of the difference in reasoning between the two heroes that nonetheless leads to the same conclusion.
Vlad, meanwhile, can only be summoned as the Lancer we see in Apo within his cultural sphere; anywhere else, you end up with either Berserker Vlad or Extra!Vlad. As this war takes place in Japan, nor Romania, and the Berserker slot is taken, that leaves Extra!Vlad, who does not ping off Gatorade nearly as well.
It does not. I strongly disagree with a lot of the reasoning provided. Like with Tokiomi in the previous iteration, these mostly feel forced, as leftovers being distributed arbitrarily with reasoning being considered after the fact. Mordred works perfectly for Illya, though such a pairing would probably be bad for both of them as they would ping off each other to spiral into a more villainous character development path. Other choices, however, are far less convincing.
In Kirei's case, Astolfo would not be able to serve his intended purpose due to Evaporating Sanity, and would be ineffective in his role even if ordered with a command spell to keep his Master's secrets. There is also zero reason for this summoning. Astolfo's "tendency" to be summoned by sadists has a sample size of 1, which does not lend much credibility.
In Rin's case, the reasoning is extremely shallow, more so than any you have used for the fourth war. And while it can be reinforced (both have no wish for the Grail, both have been constrained in their pursuits by a lack of resources), the single point that would make this pair actually work - both having a good heart beneath a facade of magus mentality - would require that the Avicebron summoned here has recollection of sacrificing his summoner to create Adam, thus triggering him with guilt and shame, as is the case in F/GO. If it is just the Apo version of Avicebron, though, they have no compatibility, no common ground to work on, and pairing them off does not offer any plot hooks to follow up on.
Gatorade is being basically utilized as a plot device here, utilized just to shove Vlad into the war. He can be simply eliminated from the equation by having Caren summon Vlad directly. That said, I disagree with Vlad simply killing Gatorade as described - he is fine with Yggdmillenia's use of homunculi as batteries, and can be extremely ruthless in pursuit of his goals. Even him killing his Master because the guy is Muslim, if only nominally, would be a more believable turn of events. Also, see above - there are better matches for Gatorade that allow him an actual role in the war.
Finally, Sakura... What you seem to be doing here is disregarding 10 years of growing up in an extremely different environment as well as putting too much stock in the surface similarities between canon Sakura and Fiore - both being repressed, wearing a mask of contentment in everyday life, and believing their fate to be immutable. I cannot appreciate that. Summoning Chiron is fine with the given reasoning, especially considering the obvious parallels with Sakura's mentor figure here but, seriously, the dynamic between him and Sakura will be vastly different from what you appear to be imagining.
Also, I see no way for Waver to ever allow his adopted daughter to meaninglessly risk her life in such a venture. Sakura would only be present in this War under one of two circumstances:
1) if Zouken is still alive, thus giving her a reason to seek revenge and/or as a means for self-affirmation, reclamation of self-confidence, self-worth, and simply confronting her trauma in the most direct manner;
2) if she is experiencing an especially moronic brand of teenage rebellion; this makes a lot of sense considering the environment she would have grown up in - having a highly desirable rare talent in her Element and Sorcery Trait of Imaginary Numbers and exceptional natural magical capacity, she would be sought after and given positive attention by many. She would have desires and ambitions very unlike canon Sakura so entering a Grail War as an act of teenage rebellion or as a means of reconnecting with her estranged sister is not out of the question.
Either way, that makes for further differences that ought to be accounted for. Sakura's motivations and goals simply cannot be left hanging with a thoughtless throwaway line as "she hears of the war and decides to take part".
Rin canonically deals with a snarky and cynical knight class Servant that nonetheless shows notable heroic tendencies. There are reasons for that blind spot; she is not that bad a judge of character. Here, she would instead be dealing with a Caster class Servant who clearly shows something too close to typical magus mentality for comfort. Stereotypical Caster Servants would be stereotypically mistrusted by a competent magus simply due to them being better magi, and while Rin does not really possess a typical magus mindset, she puts enough effort into trying to emulate it that this notion should occur to her.
For the latter point, I cannot honestly count this iteration of Illya as non-evil. Unlike the Apo situation, where Mordred's Master is someone she grows to see as a partner of equal standing in their endeavor and even something of a parent figure, the balance here is completely skewed in the opposite direction. The influence of Illya's circumstances, goals, and mentality would lead to Mordred's more... [self-]destructive aspects being emphasized and encouraged. Illya, meanwhile, is vicious enough by herself, a borderline sociopath for the majority of the canon storylines; here, I see those excesses being encouraged, if anything. There would not be any goodwill towards Shirou, either, as in Mordred's perspective, he would be seen akin to Arturia adopting a random kid to groom into her successor.
By that reasoning, Berserker Vlad is what you want to put there. Tokiomi is even Christian. This arrangement would also allow to establish team Tohsaka as a significant threat by virtue of Tokiomi being the Second Owner of Fuyuki, which can be cheesed into making the entire city Vlad's territory. It also provides a better option for dealing with Zouken in a more permanent fashion if you want that - as long as his main body is present within the range of Vlad's territory, it will get impaled as those stakes are guided by intent, do not require line of sight, and can even be manifested inside the target's body.
As for Waver, Karna may have been a better match there, imo - what Waver's character arc requires is an inspiration as well as a challenge to his views that would push him into character growth. Karna can provide all of that in spades by just being himself. Meanwhile, the only reason it works out with Achilles is via Atalanta and the Matou plot thread, as it slugs Waver in the face with the fact that there are much more important things in life than social standing, acknowledgement of your work, or petty grudges against authority figures. Achilles, if anything, would serve to reinforce Waver's more negative character traits - glory-seeking, self-absorbed, proud, and paying too little attention to potential consequences until it is too late... yeah, if not for Atalanta, Achilles could have been quite a bad influence on him.
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- Location
- Ireland
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I know that I'm definitely the person that would say this, I've realised my bias and I embrace it, but in any 4th War scenario I'd kill for Karna and Kiritsugu to interact, to see how Kiritsugu would handle Karna deconstructing his world view way before Angra Mainyu.
- Location
- London
Assuming most of the events go roughly the same, Karna would have to be Kayneth's Servant for them to have even a chance to interact. The only time Kiritsugu interacts with enemy Servant after all, is after making some KFC and Lancer comes to the rescue.
So using that as our point of reference, some reshuffling of the Servants.
Kirei - Shakespeare is actually really interesting pick since Kirei would tickle his tragic bone and would continue the trend of Bard's masters being better frontline combatants. The only problem is justifying Kirei summoning Shake.
Kayneth - Karna. The only scenario in which Kayneth (and maybe Sola) leave Fuyuki alive. They also get some marriage counselling and character development, because that's also kinda Karna's thing.
Kiritsugu - Siegfried. Einzberns decide to go for what they can be 100% sure to be strong Servant (maybe after Angry Mango they don't want to take chances with Arthur). Unfortunately, interactions with Kiritsugu are still non-existent, and yet their relationship may be better than with Arturia. Sequel hook for Shirou.
Tokiomi - As noted, Vlad can be justified into being really powerful under Second Owner and clicking with fellow Christian. The only problem is that since its outside of Romania, it's not really the same Vlad. Alternatively, Tokiomi summons Achilles, and joins teams El-Melloi and Einzbern in having untouchable Servant. On the upside no betrayal for Tokiomi. On the downside?
Kariya - Atalanta.
Ryuunosuke - Jack.
That leaves Waver with Berserker, but neither Spartakus nor Fran are good picks (and Fran is scheduled for Alt!FSN). Which means we bend the rules and go for a discarded pick. Kintoki. Who still provides opportunity for Waver to grow and have a friend for life. Also, being in Japan seriously boosts Golden Boy. Why is Kintoki available in Fuyuki despite the rules sayong no Japanese? Dunno, maybe Angra Maynyuu broke the Grail a bit more than canon...
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Vanargand
So tired.....
Kintoki is obviously going after the servant murdering kids (and other people but mostly because of kids being killed as well)
Course given his experience with youkai slaying alongside Raikou he wouldn't have Atalanta's issues and would paste Jack without any hangups, since you know lots of youkais are famed shapeshifters and probably hid as kids among the populace to catch prey easier
I think?
Course given his experience with youkai slaying alongside Raikou he wouldn't have Atalanta's issues and would paste Jack without any hangups, since you know lots of youkais are famed shapeshifters and probably hid as kids among the populace to catch prey easier
I think?
- Location
- Ukraine
This... This is brilliant. No, it is GOLDEN. A match made in Paris, probably.
Eh, as long as the fight is fair and without trickery, I believe he should not have any hangups about dispatching Jackie, at least not because she looks like a kid. Being a mass of curses, she may also register in his mind as a youkai rather than human.
I've always held that if you can't take criticism you shouldn't ask people for feedback. You raise many valid points and I'm grateful for that. Thank you for your well reasoned thoughts and for showing me my errors.
Kerry getting roasted/deconstructed by Karna seems quite plausible in this scenario.
Amazing you took my idea and made something more sensible from it. Yeah I'm fine with this lineup. I'd propably give Team Tohsaka Rider then. Tragic irony that Kariya and Tokiomi's Servants actually like one another and would be great allies if there masters weren't utterly incompatible.
With two child loving servants in the war I don't think Jack - Ryuunosoke are living through this. Kayneth and Sola having gotten marriage counselling from Karna may just be able to walk away/live through this. Kayneth being alive changes what Waver goes on to do post war, if he survives.
Okay so how do we see this Interation of the Fourth War playing out?
Regarding the lineup of the Fifth War, I'm tempted to suggest that we have Atomic Gatorade summon Caster - Avicebron who in a twist on the typical narrative is completely willing to work with his child sacrificing summoner. This gives us a antagonist Caster for the good guys to fight.
If, and this a big if, we follow the canon formula of Rin summons the same class of servant as her dad but weaker well that gives her Astolfo. I'm unsure if that's a good partnership or not.
Ilya summoning Mordred could work though as noted it means she's going to be a full fledged villain most likely.
Thoughts on the Fifth War in this AU?
If they summon Sumanai in Germany then he's gonna get some massive bonuses.
GilliamYaeger
M'crazy.
On the other hand, Mordred's very used to having a terrible, awful parent, but cool and reliable siblings. She might be able to convince Ilya to make up with Shirou.
- Location
- Ireland
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Fame boost takes into account where the Servant is, not where they were summoned. That's why Vlad loses his fame boost when he ends up in the Hanging Gardens, which are no longer "Romania".
A Nation's Virtue
南國山河南帝居
It's specifically out of the reach of Demonic Defender of the State is what I recall.