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Type Moon General

WildCardFool said:
I kind of understand Ars Paulina as some kind of Reality Marble representing God's will manifesting in Solomon or something along those lines as Solomon's past nature as an inhuman being.
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The Authority of the Judaic God bound Goetia to the flesh of Solomon.
This remained true after Solomon's death.
Since Goetia is a Demon, Solomon's body allowed him to become enfleshed, and that granted him all the benefits of being an Enfleshed Demon. He eventually turned the flesh of Solomon into the Temple of Time.
It doesn't really "represent" a legend. It's just a consequence of the Judaic God's Authority, and Goetia's nature as a Demon.

The Ars Almadel Salomonis is just the expression of Goetia's energy collection from the Incineration. It likewise isn't really a representation of a legend. Goetia just sort of gave the two of these names in theme to Ars Nova or something, maybe.
 
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Posting an idea I had a couple days back here as an alternate take on things.

Camelot singularity but with Shirou in place of Bediviere, as they both fill in a similar role of someone who represents the human side of saber as opposed to the king side, with even better "what the shit happened to you Saber" potential given how fate route ended.

I'm figuring you could get to that point setupwise just from Saber leaving excalibur to Shirou as a memento at the end of Fate route, on the grounds of her going off to die at this point, or at least planning on doing so.

Saber arrives back at Camlaan, is about to go find a tree to bleed out by, then gets to see the precursor pieces of the Ars Almadel Salomonis, enough to recognise that it's something dreadful which needs to be stopped. This leads her down the path to ending up as the lion king after failing to stop things on her end.

Shiirou meanwhile is able to keep excalibur if only because of help from better mages and him being all bout them swords, albeit at nowhere near actual power of it. Possibly as something shoved in him mostly and has to trace it to get any use out of it. Uncertain on which version of him to use- the version shortly after, where having excalibur with him means that when the incineration proper happens, he instead ends up in avalon (Things that don't obey causality are fun for storytelling purposes), or the version of him where he goes off to be mr helper man as usual, gets executed as normal, then ends up in avalon that way.

At that point, meets dickwizard, proceed from there.
 
Sightedjt said:
Posting an idea I had a couple days back here as an alternate take on things.

Camelot singularity but with Shirou in place of Bediviere, as they both fill in a similar role of someone who represents the human side of saber as opposed to the king side, with even better "what the shit happened to you Saber" potential given how fate route ended.

I'm figuring you could get to that point setupwise just from Saber leaving excalibur to Shirou as a memento at the end of Fate route, on the grounds of her going off to die at this point, or at least planning on doing so.

Saber arrives back at Camlaan, is about to go find a tree to bleed out by, then gets to see the precursor pieces of the Ars Almadel Salomonis, enough to recognise that it's something dreadful which needs to be stopped. This leads her down the path to ending up as the lion king after failing to stop things on her end.

Shiirou meanwhile is able to keep excalibur if only because of help from better mages and him being all bout them swords, albeit at nowhere near actual power of it. Possibly as something shoved in him mostly and has to trace it to get any use out of it. Uncertain on which version of him to use- the version shortly after, where having excalibur with him means that when the incineration proper happens, he instead ends up in avalon (Things that don't obey causality are fun for storytelling purposes), or the version of him where he goes off to be mr helper man as usual, gets executed as normal, then ends up in avalon that way.

At that point, meets dickwizard, proceed from there.
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Uh, how would Saber leave Excalibur with Shirou when Excalibur is actually a Noble Phantasm and thusly linked to the Servant Saber. It shouldn't have a physical form beyond the Grail War ending unless Shirou maintains his contact with Saber.

Though I think I've actually seen a story with a similar premise before: Dusk to Dawn, where Shirou, post-Fate is summoned by Chaldea as EMIYA and encounters the Goddess Rhongomyniad at the end of Camelot. Doesn't take the place of Bedivere, but similar theme.
 
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Ehhhhhhh... Bullshit something with Avalon. A sword belongs in its sheath, right?
 
Namer said:
Uh, how would Saber leave Excalibur with Shirou when Excalibur is actually a Noble Phantasm and thusly linked to the Servant Saber. It shouldn't have a physical form beyond the Grail War ending unless Shirou maintains his contact with Saber.
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Same reason why Saber can't go into spirit form - because she's not a proper Servant, but a living person being shunted throughout time by the Counter Force thanks to the deal she made with it.
 
Uh, doesn't the Camelot plot rely on Bedevire specifically being Mufasa's one, rather than the non-Mufasa one?
 
Namer said:
Uh, how would Saber leave Excalibur with Shirou when Excalibur is actually a Noble Phantasm and thusly linked to the Servant Saber. It shouldn't have a physical form beyond the Grail War ending unless Shirou maintains his contact with Saber.
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As stated before, because Sabers Excalibur is the literal physical Excalibur because FSN Saber isn't a proper heroic spirit yet.

Which is also the reason why Shirou holding it can take the role of Bediviere in Camelot, because it is the actual Excalibur which never got returned
 
To be honest, thematically speaking, it's still kind of iffy. The whole point of the conflict is the guilt Bedivere feels for having failed his king, and the reason he takes his 1500 year journey and willingly burns his soul up is because it is his fault that the Lion King exists, no one else's. Making it Saber's own fault that she becomes the Lion King and having Shirou be the one to give it to her wouldn't make much sense, because in that case there is no guilt. It's Saber's fault, all Shirou is doing is correcting that, and ultimately it just feels a lot less powerful than Bedivere accepting responsibility and pushing himself beyond his limits to atone.

Now, maybe you could make a case that it's showing off that they can never be together because even the smallest thing to connect them resulted in disaster, but that directly contradicts the Last Episode from Realta Nua, and it also arguably contradicts the entire message from the Fate route, since the whole point of that was to get Saber to accept what had happened and to stop trying to avoid it, which would naturally mean "giving up Excalibur to the Lady of the Lake and dying", which would make the choice to give it to Shirou even more baffling.

I just don't see it, really.
 
So at the end, Goetia is separate from the 72 pillars, yes? It became an autonomous personality of it's own? I ask because Goetia is called the collective but then its mentioned that pretty much all the pillars just fell apart and did their own thing (some fought to the end, some committed suicide, 2 of them notably aided the Heroic Spirits, etc.) So I just want to confirm that I'm understanding the whole thing correctly.
 
Lykantos said:
So at the end, Goetia is separate from the 72 pillars, yes? It became an autonomous personality of it's own? I ask because Goetia is called the collective but then its mentioned that pretty much all the pillars just fell apart and did their own thing (some fought to the end, some committed suicide, 2 of them notably aided the Heroic Spirits, etc.) So I just want to confirm that I'm understanding the whole thing correctly.
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No, they were like a gestalt entity, and only after we kicked his ass that they separated and became disconnected individuals.
 
Lykantos said:
So at the end, Goetia is separate from the 72 pillars, yes? It became an autonomous personality of it's own? I ask because Goetia is called the collective but then its mentioned that pretty much all the pillars just fell apart and did their own thing (some fought to the end, some committed suicide, 2 of them notably aided the Heroic Spirits, etc.) So I just want to confirm that I'm understanding the whole thing correctly.
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Hmm...I could probably put it like this: The phrase "Goetia is a separate entity to the Pillars because they left" is like saying "You are a separate entity to your brain because your frontal lobe left."
 
Sightedjt said:
As stated before, because Sabers Excalibur is the literal physical Excalibur because FSN Saber isn't a proper heroic spirit yet.

Which is also the reason why Shirou holding it can take the role of Bediviere in Camelot, because it is the actual Excalibur which never got returned
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Oh, huh. I somehow dissociated Excalibur completely from Arturia's deal with the Counter Force. Yeah, that should be fine then, though then it brings up the question of Saber leaving it even though she knows she must return it to the Lake. Derp.

BobTheNinja said:
*sound of heart shattering*

Why must you crush my dreams Salty. :cry:
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It's okay, something similar to part of that does happen.
 
All joking aside, now that I've finally completed Fate/Grand Order, there's so goddamn much lore I want to unpack and discuss from the setting.

The first thing I want to ask about is the nature of the Beasts. In FGO they are specifically referred to as the Evils of Humanity, and each one has its own official number that is portrayed as independent of Chaldea's classification system, somehow. Just for example, I'm really confused as to why Tiamat is refered to as Beast II and Goetia as Beast I. How would they even know which order they would be listed in unless they somehow had direct knowledge of that domain of reality? I'm assuming that it's because Merlin and Solomon were on the Chaledea staff and thus there were special circumstances, but it's never really confirmed.

In any case, each one embodies an inherent negative flaw present in all of humanity, so long as humanity retains its Wisdom, and apparently they gain strength over time as human civilization advances, eventually reaching some unknown trigger point that causes them to manifest as a Disaster that threats the very existence of humanity.

Here's where things get really confusing for me. In my original understanding of Fate lore before getting into the later Singularities of Grand Order, the Beasts were described as extremely powerful Spirits/Phantasmal Beings under the command of Gaia, the will of Planet Earth, acting as its Counter Force to protect the Planet from harm. This is separate from Alaya's Counter Force, which serves to protect Human existence. Primate Murder is one of these Beasts, and this is also true in FGO. Even Merlin himself outright states during the Babylonia Arc that Tiamat is "one of the Beasts of the Counter Force".

This specific fact seems to conflict with the Beasts' origins in FGO as "evils of humanity" made manifest. Gilgamesh further expands on this during the Solomon Arc, saying that the Beasts don't act out of malice toward mankind, but rather out of love for mankind and a desire for a better future, albeit in an extremely warped and harmful manner. That seems to be a fundamentally different metaphysical origin and reason for existence compared to being a Spirit of Gaia.

I would have figured that, based on the original interpretation, the Beasts would have no relation to humanity except as nuclear option to wipe them out in case they became too much of a threat to Gaia's existence. Unless this is some newly expanded aspect of their existence that simply wasn't covered in depth before FGO? And then where does this leave the position of beings like the Dead Apostle Ancestors/True Ancestors, who are also descended from Gaia?

Honestly, I think the overall cosmology of the Nasuverse is a mess, and is really weird and doesn't make sense in a fair number of places, but in spite of that, it's a very *cool* mess. But I do wish there was more consistency about how this stuff is portrayed.
 
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BobTheNinja said:
All joking aside, now that I've finally completed Fate/Grand Order, there's so goddamn much lore I want to unpack and discuss from the setting.

The first thing I want to ask about is the nature of the Beasts. In FGO they are specifically referred to as the Evils of Humanity, and each one has its own official number that is portrayed as independent of Chaldea's classification system, somehow. Just for example, I'm really confused as to why Tiamat is refered to as Beast II and Goetia as Beast I. How would they even know which order they would be listed in unless they somehow had direct knowledge of that domain of reality? I'm assuming that it's because Merlin and Solomon were on the Chaledea staff and thus there were special circumstances, but it's never really confirmed.

In any case, each one embodies an inherent negative flaw present in all of humanity, so long as humanity retains its Wisdom, and apparently they gain strength over time as human civilization advances, eventually reaching some unknown trigger point that causes them to manifest as a Disaster that threats the very existence of humanity.

Here's where things get really confusing for me. In my original understanding of Fate lore before getting into the later Singularities of Grand Order, the Beasts were described as extremely powerful Spirits/Phantasmal Beings under the command of Gaia, the will of Planet Earth, acting as its Counter Force to protect the Planet from harm. This is separate from Alaya's Counter Force, which serves to protect Human existence. Primate Murder is one of these Beasts, and this is also true in FGO. Even Merlin himself outright states during the Babylonia Arc that Tiamat is "one of the Beasts of the Counter Force".

This specific fact seems to conflict with the Beasts' origins in FGO as "evils of humanity" made manifest. Gilgamesh further expands on this during the Solomon Arc, saying that the Beasts don't act out of malice toward mankind, but rather out of love for mankind and a desire for a better future, albeit in an extremely warped and harmful manner. That seems to be a fundamentally different metaphysical origin and reason for existence compared to being a Spirit of Gaia. I would have figured that, based on the original interpretation, the Beasts would have no relation to humanity except as nuclear option to wipe them out in case they became too much of a threat to Gaia's existence. Unless this is some newly expanded aspect of their existence that simply wasn't covered in depth before FGO? And then where does this leave the position of beings like the Dead Apostle Ancestors/True Ancestors, who are also descended from Gaia?

Honestly, I think the overall cosmology of the Nasuverse is a mess, and is really weird and doesn't make sense in a fair number of places, but in spite of that, it's a very *cool* mess. But I do wish there was more consistency about how this stuff is portrayed.
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@fallacies can you come in and explain please you're good at clearing this sort of thing up and I'm worried i just say something that is wrong.
 
BobTheNinja said:
And then where does this leave the position of beings like the Dead Apostle Ancestors/True Ancestors, who are also descended from Gaia?
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They are different things. A True Ancestor is a specific category of Elemental, which act as 'the planet's sense of touch'. A Dead Apostle Ancestor is just someone on a list of really powerful creatures that are considered 'Vampiric'.

A Beast is basically... like, its precise origin doesn't matter. Goetia is God and Solomon, Tiamat is the originator of life, Kiara is a Bodhisattva thing that started as a human. They're not 'spirits of Gaia' in the way True Ancestors are. They just serve a specific function in the Human Order, a function and expression of human nature that must be overcome.


Saying 'where does that leave these other things descended from Gaia' is like saying 'Loki had a half-dead person daughter, where does that leave his horse son, or his Wolf son, or his snake son'. Its not actually relevant.
 
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Azrael said:
They are different things. A True Ancestor is a specific category of Elemental, which act as 'the planet's sense of touch'. A Dead Apostle Ancestor is just someone on a list of really powerful creatures that are considered 'Vampiric'.

A Beast is basically... like, its precise origin doesn't matter. Goetia is God and Solomon, Tiamat is the originator of life, Kiara is a Bodhisattva thing that started as a human. They're not 'spirits of Gaia' in the way True Ancestors are. They just serve a specific function in the Human Order, a function and expression of human nature that must be overcome.

Saying 'where does that leave these other things descended from Gaia' is like saying 'Loki had a half-dead person daughter, where does that leave his horse son, or his Wolf son, or his snake son'. Its not actually relevant.
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But the Type Moon wiki entry on Gaia specifically seems to contradict the bolded part of your response. Here is the exact wording I found:

Gaia (ガイア?​) is the planet's will to survive. Gaia protects all creatures on Earth by using Spirits and creatures of the Earth, but as mankind becomes independent, Gaia increasingly perceives humans as a source of threat due to their reckless destruction of the environment.
Gaia's response to the human threat is producing beings that can cull or rule mankind. Primate Murder was created to quickly eliminate humans. The True Ancestors are great Faeries modelled after the Crimson Moon, introduced by Gaia to rule over mankind.
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And Primate Murder's entry specifically refers to it as "a Beast of Gaia", implying both that it originated from Gaia as one of its subordinate Spirits and that there's more than one Beast of Gaia. And again, this bears repeating, Merlin outright said in the game dialogue that Tiamat was of the Counter Force, something that is very specific to Alaya and Gaia. And it can't originate from Alaya's Counter Force because their entire existence revolves around the survival of Humanity, antithetical to the Beasts' role as anti-human Disasters.

Honestly, I'm kind of thinking that either Nasu or the other writers of FGO just maybe didn't fully consider all of the pre-existing lore before they put down the explanations for the Beasts. It seems like the aspects ascribed to them are contradictory.
 
BobTheNinja said:
But the Type Moon wiki entry on Gaia specifically seems to contradict the bolded part of your response. Here is the exact wording I found:



And Primate Murder's entry specifically refers to it as "a Beast of Gaia", implying both that it originated from Gaia as one of its subordinate Spirits and that there's more than one Beast of Gaia. And again, this bears repeating, Merlin outright said in the game dialogue that Tiamat was of the Counter Force, something that is very specific to Alaya and Gaia. And it can't originate from Alaya's Counter Force because their entire existence revolves around the survival of Humanity, antithetical to the Beasts' role as anti-human Disasters.

Honestly, I'm kind of thinking that either Nasu or the other writers of FGO just maybe didn't fully consider all of the pre-existing lore before they put down the explanations for the Beasts. It seems like the aspects ascribed to them are contradictory.
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The Type Moon wiki is of dubious trustworthiness at best, unless you're looking directly at the cited materials.
 
BobTheNinja said:
But the Type Moon wiki entry on Gaia specifically seems to contradict the bolded part of your response. Here is the exact wording I found:



And Primate Murder's entry specifically refers to it as "a Beast of Gaia", implying both that it originated from Gaia as one of its subordinate Spirits and that there's more than one Beast of Gaia. And again, this bears repeating, Merlin outright said in the game dialogue that Tiamat was of the Counter Force, something that is very specific to Alaya and Gaia. And it can't originate from Alaya's Counter Force because their entire existence revolves around the survival of Humanity, antithetical to the Beasts' role as anti-human Disasters.

Honestly, I'm kind of thinking that either Nasu or the other writers of FGO just maybe didn't fully consider all of the pre-existing lore before they put down the explanations for the Beasts. It seems like the aspects ascribed to them are contradictory.
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One. The Type Moon Wiki is shit at lore. Like having tons of stuff that has absolutely no source. And keeping up stuff that is contradicted by sources because the mods, who don't actually know Japanese, don't like that it contradicts their headcanon.
Like that quote describes Gaia as thinking humans as a threat due to their destruction of the environment. Except she doesn't care at all. Notes shows that Gaia only actually cares that she is dying when she realized humans were suriving her death. Even the claim of True Ancestors ruling over humans doesn't really have any basis, because they were around for a long period of time where humans were ruling over humans(Arcueid isn't even born until the 12 century). True Ancestors were created as a defense against humans, but never actually got used.
Fou is a Beast of Gaia. Notably he always starts off as Fou. To become Primate Murder humanity has to act a certain way. Otherwise he stays as Fou. The whole point of Fou saying that humanity defeated Primate Murder was that they caused a situation where Primate Murder would never exist.
 
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