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Type Moon General

I'm not sure what posts to reply to (so I didn't), but I had two thoughts that have me kind of iffy about Amakusa's plan regardless of if the intent and goal is good or bad.

1. The Einzbern's magecraft is apparently developed based on the rhinegold a.k.a. that cursed gold from Siegfried's legend that causes a ton of problem, and even if it was stolen they built the grail. So even without the corruption caused by Angra Mainyu I'm not sure if I'd actually trust the grail with something that important.

2. Do to how the laws of physics for the planet are currently set up mysteries get weaker the more users they have. Meanwhile unless I misunderstood things Amakusa's plan is to turn everyone into a spirit using the the supernatural device known as the holy grail. Spirits, magecraft, the third magic, and the holy grail are all mysteries. These details when combined seem like they might result in really bad side effects. For example what if the mystery decay ends up considering (for lack of a better term) people moving the limbs of their new spirit bodies a mystery with too many users, and thus results in everyone being effectively paralyzed immortal spirits instead of just immortal spirits do to how hard stuff like 'walking' and 'waving your arms' has become?

It's possible I'm misunderstanding things, or that the change to human nature would change how stuff works if not, but as is the possibility has me considering it too likely to go horribly wrong. Still even if using mysteries for this wouldn't backfire I'd still not trust the Einzbern's stuff for this. Especially in Apocrypha where holy grail wars are apparently so common that the issues they tend to have probably aren't as easily hidden.
 
If it came to pass that Amakusa were successful, and the Human Order didn't merely designate the Apocrypha timeline for culling, the Common Sense as it stood before his victory would presumably no longer be a thing -- and so it's kind of meaningless to talk about things like the depletion of Mystery.

That no longer matters.
The World itself would be fundamentally different.
The Human Order, if it could still be called that, would be fundamentally different.

The concerns that humans had prior to their attainment of immortality would largely become irrelevant or drastically redefined, as most of these would have been predicated upon the premise that humans are finite and mortal. The situations where they need to make a choice between a selection of options as a matter of efficiency would in some part vanish. Efficacy of time expenditure is a behavior symptomatic of living a finite existence.

Whether or not the model of the world as it exists prior to such an event is unjust or evil, what Amakusa is expressing in his actions is in essence, "What you cared about previously; what you regarded as worthwhile simply doesn't matter, because I said so. You don't get a choice, because I know better."
 
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More Requiem news:
Galahad Alter:


This is apparently him having fused with his Master:

That's said to be Longinus.



That's apparently "Karen Fujimura".
 
...is that Saber Galahad? Edit: ah I saw his name, it is! Galahad Alter, it seems. How about that.

Wonder if he'll show up in FGO?
 
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fallacies said:
The situations where they need to make a choice between a selection of options as a matter of efficiency would in some part vanish.
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Which is fine, as change is not bad in of itself.
Efficacy of time expenditure is a behavior symptomatic of living a finite existence.
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Why?

Or rather, why do you feel that one's competitiveness has anything to do with end of its existence? I mean, it evolved due the need to create offspring, of course, but it's its own thing now.
Whether or not the model of the world as it exists prior to such an event is unjust or evil, what Amakusa is expressing in his actions is in essence, "What you cared about previously; what you regarded as worthwhile simply doesn't matter, because I said so. You don't get a choice, because I know better."
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Which is fine. Free will is not absolute; you can never choose to fly. Your free will is always restricted and violated by others; words like law, taxes, jail and vaccination come to mind.

If it truly creates the better world, then that transgression is fine. Sure it would be nice if he added opt out feature, but it's an absolute salvation so you'll take what you can get.
 
I just want to add that for those that believe that FGO is going to end after part 2, remember that Nasu said in a previous interview he had planned up to the fifth anniversary.
 
TheBlackLight said:
I just want to add that for those that believe that FGO is going to end after part 2, remember that Nasu said in a previous interview he had planned up to the fifth anniversary.
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Of course it's not going to end, it's just going to enter the Fanfiction Power Hour until it stops being profitable. aka Fate/Grand Carnival - Now With Less Tsukihime!
 
Wolfy said:
Why?

Or rather, why do you feel that one's competitiveness has anything to do with end of its existence? I mean, it evolved due the need to create offspring, of course, but it's its own thing now.
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Not competitiveness. Efficacy of time expenditure.

When you and everyone else you know are unlimited, unending existences, efficacy of time expenditure is one of those things that become obsolete. Since most of the evaluations that humans engage in are premised in their being restricted existences with finite available time, an absence of lifespan limitations necessarily means that decisions that consider time as a resource where scarcity is applicable would to some extent go away.

Whatever mode of valuation that emerges from that wouldn't much resemble the valuation scheme of modern humans. Rather, making this mandatory would necessarily reject the valuation scheme that modern humans employ.

Scarcity would stop applying to certain things.
 
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Lmao y'all argued so hard about immortality that Nasu literally wrote up a whole new entry in Fate to deal with it.

Can we can this debate now and let WoG handle it?
 
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fallacies said:
Not competitiveness. Efficacy of time expenditure.
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You do understand that "efficiency of time expenditure" usually translates to "lazing around", right? Because that is what it is. Think lions. It's a worthless quality which only describes that you survive with minimal energy investment.

People give it their best when competing with other people, being it directly or by trying to make replicas of star ships in Minecraft. With that your "infinite time" argument completely falls apart, because other people are there to act as your time limit, as they are now. It's honestly amazing that muh conflict people always home onto war and not on, you know, their entire modern existence. Like arguing about bullshit philosophy on troll made internet boards, for example.
 
Namer said:


Lmao y'all argued so hard about immortality that Nasu literally wrote up a whole new entry in Fate to deal with it.

Can we can this debate now and let WoG handle it?
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This sounds pretty interesting! Here's hoping we get it translated, fan or official, as I'd quite like to see Nasu exploring an immortal society and the implications thereof (rather than the current 'why people should not become immortal yet').
 
Wolfy said:
With that your "infinite time" argument completely falls apart, because other people are there to act as your time limit, as they are now. It's honestly amazing that muh conflict people always home onto war and not on, you know, their entire modern existence.
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What exactly is this "infinite time argument" that I'm supposed to have made?
Where exactly is this "muh conflict argument" that I'm supposed to have made?

I've argued only that human valuation as it currently exists would be rejected by "immortality for everyone," because such a valuation scheme is fundamentally based on time scarcity.
Do you actually disagree with this?

Like, are you going to tell me that the valuation / worth as applied to basically everything wouldn't fundamentally change when everyone has infinite time available?
 
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NMR-3 said:
More Requiem news:
Galahad Alter:


This is apparently him having fused with his Master:

That's said to be Longinus.



That's apparently "Karen Fujimura".
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Capsule Servant Cannon

Caren Fujimura

Ending

Narration: Emiya Shirou, fourth-grader, is a father of one!

Narration: Surrounded by society's cruel eyes, his friends, and some bothersome girls…

Narration: …between childcare and school, his days are busy but fun!

Narration: Don't lose, Shirou! Do your best, Caren!

Narration: Apparently she's listed on the family register as Fujimura's daughter, so there is no need to fear the government!

Rin: Wait wait wait, this is weird! This whole thing is weird!

Shirou: Okay, drink up and get big and strong!

Fujimura: Wait a minute, what do you mean she's my daughter?! And is this the only place Fujimura gets to appear?!

Rin: Aaaah geez! What kind of ending is this?!!

Caren-chan: Goo goo. (peace)

Capsule Servant is canon.
 
"Fate/Requiem said:
And thus, mankind has reached one of its greatest goal of "eternal youth and eternal life". - Though, I am an exception. Only I am an exception.
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...Of course the protagonist is the only one that is still mortal. I've already had my doubts about this book but that only drives to lower my expectations even further. It already has too many things that put me off in Fate/.
 
I'm like 90% sure FGO will get a new protagonist when part 2 ends. Probably really change it up setting wise also. Could have it take place in a lostbelt like world but is unable to be culled.
 
fallacies said:
What exactly is this "infinite time argument" that I'm supposed to have made?
Where exactly is this "muh conflict argument" that I'm supposed to have made?

I've argued only that human valuation as it currently exists would be rejected by "immortality for everyone," because such a valuation scheme is fundamentally based on time scarcity.
Do you actually disagree with this?

Like, are you going to tell me that the valuation / worth as applied to basically everything wouldn't fundamentally change when everyone has infinite time available?
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Right now, you are observing that things changing will lead to things being changed, which is, like, no fucking shit they will change. It is worthless observation as fact that Amasuka's action will bring change is absolute lowest point of overall immortality debate we were having, as we usually debate merit of those changes. I already engaged your "things will change" spiel earlier, noting quite obvious fact that change, in of itself, is something neutral, and as such not something that have bearing on either side of this argument.

I focused on "time efficiency" concept you were trying to build because that's at least something that isn't stating most patently obvious thing there is.
MiracleGrow said:
I'm like 90% sure FGO will get a new protagonist when part 2 ends. Probably really change it up setting wise also. Could have it take place in a lostbelt like world but is unable to be culled.
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I'm hoping that Guda is BBEG of FGO 2, trying to end our world to bring back his.
 
Wolfy said:
It is worthless observation as fact that Amasuka's action will bring change is absolute lowest point of overall immortality debate we were having, as we usually debate merit of those changes. I already engaged your "things will change" spiel earlier, noting quite obvious fact that change, in of itself, is something neutral, and as such not something that have bearing on either side of this argument.
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No, it isn't merely an observation that "things will change."
It's an observation that the absence of time scarcity is a rejection of basically the entire valuation system that humans employed prior to immortality.
What Amakusa is saying is, "Those things that you find to be valuable right now no longer will be, because the premise of your entire valuation system is no longer true. I'm introducing a brand new valuation paradigm that makes your value system obsolete and meaningless. No, I'm not giving you a choice."

Reducing it to something neutral like "things will change (and that's a rather dumb observation to make, because they obviously will, duh)" is misrepresenting the nature of my objection.
 
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