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Type Moon General
- Location
- In you're house RIGHT NOW!
LEGEND OF DRACULA IN APO MANGA
Hit the tape
That looks so much fucking better than the anime wow.
that pyramid in the background
New Requiem Art:
Akihabara, rebuilt after rising sea levels and HGW damages.
Makes sense. For things to work in Fate Requiem, there probably need to be far less people than were previously. Love that aesthetic.
Wait a second, is that the Colosseum in the background? On the left? Wonder if that'll be plot relevant.
blast flame
How far will we go if it means lighting the way?
- Location
- Perth, Australia
- Pronouns
- They/Them
I don't think I'll ever see eye to eye with the Nasu or the Nasuverse. I played the VN like I was supposed to, then Hollow Ataraxia, watched some of Fate Zero, got into FGO, tried watching Kara No Kyoukai, even tried reading some of the Prisma Illya manga after being told it was less pervy than the anime (it wasn't). But I always found myself at odds with the morals and worldview it presented, the closest I got to agreement was in parts of Fate Zero which isn't written by Nasu. And recently I've read some stuff about Fate Apocrypha and I think that's the last straw.
Fundamentally I agree with Shirou Amakusa, I found his cause to be compelling and Nasu's beliefs that it would lead to "stagnation" eyeroll worthy.
I think I'll stop reading and start skipping the main plot segments in FGO after Solomon and just treat it as a game from now on. Basically give up on the Nasuverse. And try to roll for Amakusa next time he's available.
Fundamentally I agree with Shirou Amakusa, I found his cause to be compelling and Nasu's beliefs that it would lead to "stagnation" eyeroll worthy.
I think I'll stop reading and start skipping the main plot segments in FGO after Solomon and just treat it as a game from now on. Basically give up on the Nasuverse. And try to roll for Amakusa next time he's available.
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- Location
- Denmark
The problem is that it was amakusa trying to do it and not a living human. See Solomons internal monolouge during the dream sequence with marisbilly.
- Location
- Ireland
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Amakusa is wrong because he's trying to force a state of immortality on to everyone while potentially trying to remove their free will because at his core, he's an angsty teenager who hates humanity and has no faith in them because of what he experienced. There's a reason he's placed up against Jeanne d'Arc, who was also a teenager who experienced horrible shit, but chose to keep believing in humanity.
The stagnation and pruning stuff only came after.
blast flame
How far will we go if it means lighting the way?
- Location
- Perth, Australia
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Don't get me wrong I'd definitely prefer for everyone to be given the choice whether they want immortality. But if I have to choose between death or immortality for everyone I'm choosing immortality.
That fundamentally doesn't make sense to me. He's conscious, he's there in the present. As far as I'm concerned he's a living human.
- Location
- Ireland
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Again, Amakusa's plan wasn't just immortality, apparently. Apoc volume 5 isn't translated, but the fact that Amakusa had to have Shakespeare and his own NPs used to mess with the Grail when activating the Third Magic on the entire world is the actual function of the Grail would suggest he was making changes.
Fundamentally, the Nasuverse has a Buddhist bent to it. The journey to Nirvana is the most important thing. Humanity will eventually reach that state by itself, but only when it's ready. Amakusa lost all faith in humanity and chose to try force that state on them, bringing them to the destination without going through the journey. He did this because he hates humanity and had no faith that they could ever improve or do better, because of his own personal experience. His desires and experiences trumped everything else, because again, he's a selfish and stubborn teenager. He's convinced he's right and that there's no other option, even when he's up against the embodiment that his beliefs are wrong, and up against someone who suffered intensely and still chose to love and believe in humanity.
The reason Amakusa is wrong isn't because of stagnation or pruning or anything, it's because he lost faith in humanity and he's trying to cheat them to a higher state of existence before they're ready, potentially also trying to remove their free will too.
ZerbanDaGreat
Daemon Noble of D E M O G R A P H I C S
- Pronouns
- They/them
I'm so sorry.
I think what Apocrypha and things after that are trying to say is that as a Heroic Spirit he's had his time and he's not meant to be trying to add things on after the fact of his life is over - he's meant to be a benchmark on the barometer of Sick Tricks And Skillz humanity compares itself to. That's why the final battle of Apocrypha is a mano-y-mano match with Sieg, a shitty artificial life-form born to die who nonetheless became human due to developing a will and sense of self through struggling to survive and growing closer to others.
It's just Apocrypha is shit at this due to the combo platter of Siegfried and Fran steroids pumping through Sieg at the time, but the attempted thematic point is there.
blast flame
How far will we go if it means lighting the way?
- Location
- Perth, Australia
- Pronouns
- They/Them
This doesn't fix my "never see eye to eye with the nasuverse" problem, it highlights *why* I'll never see eye to eye with the nasuverse. Humanity *should* achieve immortality as soon as possible, every year we don't means millions upon millions of innocent people die.
You don't have to love innocent people dying slowly in nursing homes to love humanity. You don't have to love genocides and murders and bigotry and oppression to love humanity. I reject all these things. If Amakusa "hates" humanity then he is all the better for still wanting to save humans in spite of that hatred, sign me up.
And I fundamentally disagree with that notion. We don't "have our time", (almost*) everyone's time is cruelly and unfairly cut short, (almost*) everyone deserves to be able to do more. He is lucky he got that chance when so many others didn't but he put it to good use. Death is no something to be accepted, if you can come back and do more then do it!
*Well except, like, Hitler and stuff I mean.
ZerbanDaGreat
Daemon Noble of D E M O G R A P H I C S
- Pronouns
- They/them
imma keep it real witchu b, i think immortality sounds fucking awful and would definitely have disastrous consequences for humanity even before the 'hey it might turn into human instrumentality but with less orange tang and more goasts' thing justeaze warns of
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- Location
- Ireland
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I'd rather die someday than have my free will ripped away and turned into an undying shell of myself tbqh
Mizu
Software Developer
- Location
- Victoria, Australia
Sounds like you just... don't gel or agree with the story nasu media is trying to tell that much, honestly? And that's fine, not everyone's gonna enjoy X media. That said, if you don't enjoy it you probably shouldn't keep experiencing said media, as it generally isn't too fun for ya.
blast flame
How far will we go if it means lighting the way?
- Location
- Perth, Australia
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Well I've gotten into the whole "is immortality desirable" argument many times, we're probably not going to solve it here. I am firmly on the "pro" side, albeit with voluntary suicide being an option strongly preferred.
I've been reading some stuff about Apocrypha and a lot of Amakusa advocates disagree with the taking away free will thing so I take it that it's at least ambiguous?
The problem is I've got Gilgamesh, Merlin and Illya in FGO. I'm committed there now.
That and I've sunk like over 200 hours into Nasuverse stuff now, it has a part of my mindshare whether I want it to or not now. I was spurred on to keep going by a massive Nasu fan on a discord I visit.
- Location
- Ireland
- Pronouns
- He/Him
To be honest, Amakusa's philosophy doesn't really gel well with free will still existing. He wants to make everyone permanently immortal forever while ignoring literally everyone who says it's a bad idea or that they don't want it, and his plan involves hacking into the Grail when if all he wanted was the immortality it would be easy to just activate the genuine Heaven's Feel by using seven Servants in the Grail as it was designed to. He also has literally no faith in humanity whatsoever, which is the reason he's doing it all.
Amakusa deciding to also remove free will to make sure that the evil race that will never ever progress by itself wouldn't be able to hurt people while he makes them immortal definitely fits with his character.
Seihai-kun
[Unverified Wish Granting Device]
- Location
- Brasil
Problem is that there's simple no way (that we know of) to do achieve immortality without eventually turning everyone into vegetables that no longer wish for the future and don't try to acomplish anything new, robbing us of what makes us human. Solomon/Goetia's conversation with Mashu before the final battle shows that much better than Apocrypha ever could.
If everyone is happy with the present, then no one will long for a better future, and no one will try to reach for that. "Perfection" is a false promise that prevent us from reaching something even better than it. THAT is the Stagnation Nasu wars us about.
I really hate humanity as it is, but I still believe in the potential of humanity (no, I had this view long before I met FSN Gil). To me, this reckless immortality is something that threatens this potential that I believe in, and I would discard it in a heartbeat.
If everyone is happy with the present, then no one will long for a better future, and no one will try to reach for that. "Perfection" is a false promise that prevent us from reaching something even better than it. THAT is the Stagnation Nasu wars us about.
I really hate humanity as it is, but I still believe in the potential of humanity (no, I had this view long before I met FSN Gil). To me, this reckless immortality is something that threatens this potential that I believe in, and I would discard it in a heartbeat.
blast flame
How far will we go if it means lighting the way?
- Location
- Perth, Australia
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Yeah, I call BS on that. That is something I strongly disagree with Nasu about. Made my eyes roll so hard it hurt in Solomon too.
People, at least most people, don't build rockets because of death. They build rockets because they want to conquer the stars. Because they want to do it before the other guy does, to be first. Because they dream of soaring like birds.
Immortality is not "perfection". World peace is not "perfection". There is always room to improve, and people will always see those opportunities and expand into them.
In a world with immortality people will still be asking "perfect 3D virtual reality harem when?" This will drive progress.
In a world with immortality people will still be saying "But I want to go to goddamn space myself" This will drive progress.
In a world with immortality people will still be saying "But I want to be richer" This will drive progress.
In a world with immortality people will still be asking "But what is true?" This will drive progress.
In a world with immortality people will still be saying "I want to do something that no one's ever done before" This will drive progress.
Sightedjt
Everlasting Flames
I'd personally say stagnation isn't the right term for it. It's more about maturity. If you make the whole species immortal, you have to be able to sustain things forever, because that's how things are going to be, and without generational turnover, progress on social issues will become harder to make.
And as we are, we are nowhere near a society I think is sustainable enough for eternity, and there's plenty of progress on social stuff we could do with making as well. So as a whole, that's why I think amakusa was wrong to force it upon us, because we aren't mature enough for the responsibilities it comes with.
And as we are, we are nowhere near a society I think is sustainable enough for eternity, and there's plenty of progress on social stuff we could do with making as well. So as a whole, that's why I think amakusa was wrong to force it upon us, because we aren't mature enough for the responsibilities it comes with.
blast flame
How far will we go if it means lighting the way?
- Location
- Perth, Australia
- Pronouns
- They/Them
I do think we have much social progress left to make, yes, but death isn't the solution here. After all death means that the victims of discrimination and bigotry never get to see the new world free of it either. I'm not saying it will be easy and one only needs look at the recent worldwide turn towards authoritarian nationalism to see this isn't always an upwards trend. But we must fight to convince people of the benefits of equality and freedom and compassion. To expand our mental "tribes" to include those different to us, to consider them human and worthy of kindness as well.
And we can change. Our views towards gay marriage improved much faster than generational turnover alone between 2000 and 2015 when it became legal, to the extent that I think we've forgotten just how much anti-gay bigotry there was in 2000. This will be further helped by the fact that aging won't ravage our brains, making it harder for us to learn new ideas. Isn't deciding that death is the only way humanity as a whole can improve fundamentally giving up on the ability of humans to improve, the same thing some are accusing Shirou Amakusa of?
...I've thought about this whole "is immortality desirable?" question a lot, far before ever reading FSN. I'm very much a firm transhumanist and its desirability has been a core part of my worldview for almost half my life now.
And we can change. Our views towards gay marriage improved much faster than generational turnover alone between 2000 and 2015 when it became legal, to the extent that I think we've forgotten just how much anti-gay bigotry there was in 2000. This will be further helped by the fact that aging won't ravage our brains, making it harder for us to learn new ideas. Isn't deciding that death is the only way humanity as a whole can improve fundamentally giving up on the ability of humans to improve, the same thing some are accusing Shirou Amakusa of?
...I've thought about this whole "is immortality desirable?" question a lot, far before ever reading FSN. I'm very much a firm transhumanist and its desirability has been a core part of my worldview for almost half my life now.
- Location
- Ukraine
If I suddenly became immortal and even lost all need for physical sustenance and comfort in the process, I would not be "happy with the present". Being human is much more than that, heck, it can be said that being human is in large part about there always being much more than that.
There is no way to achieve immortality that we know of, period. Claiming that any way we find will "eventually turn everyone into vegetables" is little more than fearmongering as there is neither precedent of intelligent immortal lifeforms becoming stagnant, nor a way to reliably model such an eventuality. There are theories based on neural network behavior and learning algorithms but as we remain far from creating a full-fledged human-level artificial intelligence, those theories are quite obviously still lacking something. And even if we go by the current theories, the stagnancy they predict is only applicable to a closed system - there is no risk of humanity becoming stagnant by achieving immortality as long as there remains a way for new generations to be born.
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GilliamYaeger
M'crazy.
Imagine a world with Trump as the immortal god emperor. As Chaplain once said, the hate of men will pass, and dictators die, and the power they took from the people will return to the people. And so long as men die, liberty will never perish. A world without death would need just one bad actor to sieze power to ruin it forever. Just look at SIN - it's people are left ignorant and stupid while the immortal emperor lives it up in luxury. It's relatively fine in SIN because Qin Shi Huang has what he believes to be humanity's best interests at heart, but it's easy to imagine how things could go horrifically wrong if he wasn't so 'benevolent.'
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