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Type Moon General

The Imperator said:
His plan rests on the assumption that humans are inherently evil and can't ever do better. Gilles spells it out, and Amakusa doesn't deny it, when trying to get Jeanne to their side. They have to get rid of what makes humans human because Amakusa sees that as inherently evil. If Amakusa gave them any kind of choice, that would run contrary to his raison d'etre at that point in the story is that he wants to kill anyone that disagrees with his plan (showing he hates free will) and stop giving humans a choice (because he sees humans as evil and incapable of doing better on their own).


Fighting against it doesn't require killing anyone who doesn't like it and stopping humans from having any instincts. Use the Greater Grail (given it's not corrupted in this time line) to accelerate humanity's development rather than forcibly changing everyone. I know I would not take kindly to suddenly getting my instincts neutered and losing my body.
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I'll admit I'm using the most optimistic interpretation of Amakusa because I want someone I can agree with in the Nasuverse. There's no one else left.
 
FeigningGrey said:
Humanity in the Nasuverse kind of has a good deal cut out for it, if you don't count the Human Order Timeline Fucking System, which Amakusa's plan never really accounted for (on account of it not being a thing at the time but shhhhhhhhh) and would've gotten culled for all his trouble. Maybe.

Now, the real visionary that we should all be looking towards for the salvation of humanity is Mister Sir Lord Kirschtaria Fucking Wodime.
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I cant wait to kick his entire timelines teeth in in a couple years time
 
blast flame said:
I'll admit I'm using the most optimistic interpretation of Amakusa because I want someone I can agree with in the Nasuverse. There's no one else left.
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Then why are you even in this franchise? If you can't find anything you like about it without intentionally misinterpreting a character purely for the sake of being able to agree with something, then just leave man. It's not worth your time to be here if you aren't enjoying it. Go find another franchise that you like better.
 
blast flame said:
I'll admit I'm using the most optimistic interpretation of Amakusa because I want someone I can agree with in the Nasuverse. There's no one else left.
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Flat and Shirou are pretty cool. And didnt Rin in Extra or whatever help save humanity thanks to accelerating along a path? (Havent played it because no translation AFAIK).

Also, Jeanne's thing was also that the dead shouldn't be deciding things for the living. Which I agree with. I dont want some long dead person to suddenly come back and decide my own Fate (ha!) for me.

But yeah, part of Nasu's setting seems to be built around the human experience necessarily involving less than noble stuff but that humans persevere through it. If that's not your cup of tea, then that's totally fine.
 
Krika said:
Then why are you even in this franchise? If you can't find anything you like about it without intentionally misinterpreting a character purely for the sake of being able to agree with something, then just leave man. It's not worth your time to be here if you aren't enjoying it. Go find another franchise that you like better.
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I don't think I'm so much misinterpreting as taking the most optimistic viable interpretation.

And I've already invested like 200+ hours into the franchise and have a lot more time and effort invested into FGO (reached level 130 today) and have a number of very good servants. I'm human, I can't just turn my back on all that time and effort.

Also I have difficulty finding other media I *do* enjoy. It's not like I agree with Fullmetal Alchemist any more than this you know. How many fictional works do you know that, for instance, portray a quest for immortality in a positive light? I have a few pieces I tend to agree with more like Madoka Magica but they're rare.
 
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Sightedjt said:
I cant wait to kick his entire timelines teeth in in a couple years time
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I mean honestly same, only like in six months probably compared to a few years but like, there might be no reaper knockoffs with dumb powers, Atlantis is the centre of the world, if the OP is any indication it looks like a fun place from the outside, it's Greece, and everything that isn't the Chapter Order points to it being the biggest and baddest Lostbelt of the lot and we may even get some delicious technomyth aesthetic in there somewhere; and all of that together is like, my dream collection of things in the Nasuverse. And I'm going to kill it. And I'm going to love it.
 
blast flame said:
I don't think I'm so much misinterpreting as taking the most optimistic viable interpretation.
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Considering the Harweys were creating a world headed for stagnation and culling and the Apoc timeline would end up worse, you're not taking the most optimistic viable interpretation. You're intentionally ignoring literally everything and everyone who says that Amakusa's plan is bad and wouldn't work, from a moral and from a timeline-culling perspective, just because Nasu never explicitly said that it would happen, when it's never been the subject of discussion again.
 
Squirtodyle said:
Considering the Harweys were creating a world headed for stagnation and culling and the Apoc timeline would end up worse, you're not taking the most optimistic viable interpretation. You're intentionally ignoring literally everything and everyone who says that Amakusa's plan is bad and wouldn't work, from a moral and from a timeline-culling perspective, just because Nasu never explicitly said that it would happen, when it's never been the subject of discussion again.
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Taking the most optimistic interpretation of what Amakusa's plan was I meant. I also disagree with Nasu about the nature of humanity but that's a separate thing. :V
 
Eh, immortality sucks dick anyways. Due to out inherent nature as a finite existence, we naturally prescribe value and meaning to things based on the precept that we risk losing those things. By removing the possibility of loss, you have greatly devalued the meaning and worth if something; in this case, life itself.

It is only because light casts a shadow and make s darkness that it shines so much brighter, after all.
 
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I don't enjoy seeing a sunset because I'm going to die. In fact if I remember the existence of death while looking at it that's likely to ruin my experience.
 
blast flame said:
I don't think I'm so much misinterpreting as taking the most optimistic viable interpretation.

And I've already invested like 200+ hours into the franchise and have a lot more time and effort invested into FGO (reached level 130 today) and have a number of very good servants. I'm human, I can't just turn my back on all that time and effort.

Also I have difficulty finding other media I *do* enjoy. It's not like I agree with Fullmetal Alchemist any more than this you know. How many fictional works do you know that, for instance, portray a quest for immortality in a positive light? I have a few pieces I tend to agree with more like Madoka Magica but they're rare.
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So you're willing to admit that you're deep in the sunk cost fallacy, while also asserting that immortal humans wouldn't be so equally deep in it? If you can't put down a franchise that you don't find enjoyment in, then what makes you think that immortals would be able to put down grudges or conflicts, especially ones that have been hardcoded into them by society?
 
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blast flame said:
I don't enjoy seeing a sunset because I'm going to die. In fact if I remember the existence of death while looking at it that's likely to ruin my experience.
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No, but it is a unique fleeting moment of beauty in the finite span of your life. You have willingly chosen to devote a fraction of your limited time upon this earth because you have decided that the beauty of the setting sun is worth it. Being immortal devalues this because it's no longer as much of a cost to do so; your time is infinite so why not put off everything else to watch it? Or even do something else and wait long enough for the circumstances of the sunset to recreate themselves and see it then?

This is not a conscious process. This is simply the fundamentals of human nature at work.
 
EnderofWorlds said:
No, but it is a unique fleeting moment of beauty in the finite span of your life. You have willingly chosen to devote a fraction of your limited time upon this earth because you have decided that the beauty of the setting sun is worth it. Being immortal devalues this because it's no longer as much of a cost to do so; your time is infinite so why not put off everything else to watch it? Or even do something else and wait long enough for the circumstances of the sunset to recreate themselves and see it then?

This is not a conscious process. This is simply the fundamentals of human nature at work.
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Your making a lot of assumptions about human nature.
 
Krika said:
So you're willing to admit that you're deep in the sunk cost fallacy, while also asserting that immortal humans wouldn't be so equally deep in it? If you can't put down a franchise that you don't find enjoyment in, then what makes you think that immortals would be able to put down grudges or conflicts, especially ones that have been hardcoded into them by society?
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I thought we were going to drop the immortality debate except as it related more directly to the plot?

Again: not saying there won't be problems. But those problems are not worth literally killing everyone. Every time I see someone in fiction fight against immortality I imagine my grandfather who died of age related causes being smothered in his hospital bed by these so called good guys. What can justify that, what can be worth that? That happening thousands of times a day all around the world for centuries upon centuries without end.
It will take a *lot* of work to adapt our society to immortality. But it's worth it.

EnderofWorlds said:
No, but it is a unique fleeting moment of beauty in the finite span of your life. You have willingly chosen to devote a fraction of your limited time upon this earth because you have decided that the beauty of the setting sun is worth it. Being immortal devalues this because it's no longer as much of a cost to do so; your time is infinite so why not put off everything else to watch it? Or even do something else and wait long enough for the circumstances of the sunset to recreate themselves and see it then?

This is not a conscious process. This is simply the fundamentals of human nature at work.
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I don't buy that. I take the opposite approach, if I was immortal maybe I'd be able to enjoy things more because I wouldn't feel rushed and stressed and unable to relax all the time because of the damn time limit having over my head.
 
blast flame said:
I don't buy that. I take the opposite approach, if I was immortal maybe I'd be able to enjoy things more because I wouldn't feel rushed and stressed and unable to relax all the time because of the damn time limit having over my head.
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But the sheer fact that your time is limited pushes and drives you, which in turn makes you live life that much more. It's all to easy to procrastinate when there's no time limit; deadlines force and cultivate action via their existence.

The fact that I can't put off my death forever makes me want to get as much enjoyment and living out of life as I can. Immortality would rob me of this, and I wouldn't be able to bring myself to undo it once I do have it because even if I accept death I still fear it.
 
EnderofWorlds said:
But the sheer fact that your time is limited pushes and drives you, which in turn makes you live life that much more. It's all to easy to procrastinate when there's no time limit; deadlines force and cultivate action via their existence.

The fact that I can't put off my death forever makes me want to get as much enjoyment and living out of life as I can. Immortality would rob me of this, and I wouldn't be able to bring myself to undo it once I do have it because even if I accept death I still fear it.
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Counterpoint : Hikkimori's and shutins.
 
EnderofWorlds said:
But the sheer fact that your time is limited pushes and drives you, which in turn makes you live life that much more. It's all to easy to procrastinate when there's no time limit; deadlines force and cultivate action via their existence.

The fact that I can't put off my death forever makes me want to get as much enjoyment and living out of life as I can. Immortality would rob me of this, and I wouldn't be able to bring myself to undo it once I do have it because even if I accept death I still fear it.
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I procrastinate now, I just feel shit about it.
 
I also disagree with your take that the existence of old age and death are "killing everyone ever"

We're machines. We wear out, we break and eventually we can't be fixed. It's just something that happens. There's a massive difference between that and killing someone.

And in no way is stopping some delusional fuckwit who wants to fuck everything up for a shofdy half baked immortality scheme something that counts as "killing everyone"
 
EnderofWorlds said:
But the sheer fact that your time is limited pushes and drives you, which in turn makes you live life that much more. It's all to easy to procrastinate when there's no time limit; deadlines force and cultivate action via their existence.

The fact that I can't put off my death forever makes me want to get as much enjoyment and living out of life as I can. Immortality would rob me of this, and I wouldn't be able to bring myself to undo it once I do have it because even if I accept death I still fear it.
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I strongly disagree with this. Death and limited time are not the only limits that challenge us, only the most pressing and obvious ones. Removing them does not mean we won't find other reasons to pursue our goals or drive ourselves to new heights, and people glorifying death, putting human mortality on a pedestal like that just confuses me.


Also, that is also a false ideal you are describing as very few humans can actually live up to it.* We need downtime even from the lofty goal of finding joy in life; that is also part of human nature.

Late edit: *I've worded this sentence very poorly. More accurately, it should be, "what you are describing is an ideal rather than the reality of the situation; very few humans can actually live up to your statement".
 
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Ah yes, good old "muh death" debate. Why, you can see how Palestine and Libya turned out to be paradise of perfect humans while conflictless shitholes such as Scandinavia keep falling behind in art, science and social development. Truly, I can't wait to be shaken out of my boring life by the sounds of bullet piercing flesh. Mere thought of my children not growing up knowing sound of bombing runs makes me physically ill.

Really, lets do a thought experiment here - lets assume that Amasuka was going to make humans perfectly immune to any kind of disease. Would you still use "muh ghost" or "b-but we should accomplish it ourselves" as an argument as to why it's a bad thing?
 
Wolfy said:
Ah yes, good old "muh death" debate. Why, you can see how Palestine and Libya turned out to be paradise of perfect humans while conflictless shitholes such as Scandinavia keep falling behind in art, science and social development. Truly, I can't wait to be shaken out of my boring life by the sounds of bullet piercing flesh. Mere thought of my children not growing up knowing sound of bombing runs makes me physically ill.

Really, lets do a thought experiment here - lets assume that Amasuka was going to make humans perfectly immune to any kind of disease. Would you still use "muh ghost" or "b-but we should accomplish it ourselves" as an argument as to why it's a bad thing?
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How about this.

Go up to every child dying of disease in hospitals and use that argument.
 
Wolfy said:
Ah yes, good old "muh death" debate. Why, you can see how Palestine and Libya turned out to be paradise of perfect humans while conflictless shitholes such as Scandinavia keep falling behind in art, science and social development. Truly, I can't wait to be shaken out of my boring life by the sounds of bullet piercing flesh. Mere thought of my children not growing up knowing sound of bombing runs makes me physically ill.

Really, lets do a thought experiment here - lets assume that Amasuka was going to make humans perfectly immune to any kind of disease. Would you still use "muh ghost" or "b-but we should accomplish it ourselves" as an argument as to why it's a bad thing?
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Kinda? I mean, what kind of things does that ghost think is a disease to be eliminated? How would they be eliminated? I wouldn't trust a ghost with that kind of decision.
 
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