But the Type Moon wiki entry on Gaia specifically seems to contradict the bolded part of your response. Here is the exact wording I found:
Fun fact, wikis aren't gospel. Especially wikis notorious for being inaccurate or incomplete, like Type Moon Wiki.

Also, it really doesn't contradict my response. What I said was that the Beasts, the Evils of Humanity, are of diverse origin and do not equate to True Ancestors in any way. Cath Palug, Beast 4, was created by Gaia as population control. Tiamat, Beast 2 was created to seed the earth with life. That's irrelevant to their statuses as Evils of Humanity. Kiara is again, originally a human, then she became akin to one of the many forms of 'Demon'/a Bodhisattva thing. Her origin has very little or nothing to do with Gaia.
And Primate Murder's entry specifically refers to it as "a Beast of Gaia", implying both that it originated from Gaia as one of its subordinate Spirits and that there's more than one Beast of Gaia. And again, this bears repeating, Merlin outright said in the game dialogue that Tiamat was of the Counter Force, something that is very specific to Alaya and Gaia. And it can't originate from Alaya's Counter Force because their entire existence revolves around the survival of Humanity, antithetical to the Beasts' role as anti-human Disasters.
Again. Something being of Gaia does not really relate to its status as an Evil of Humanity. Primate Murder is a being created by Gaia and acts as part of its counter force. It is also a living representation of Mankind's competitive, divisive nature that needs to be overcome for humanity to truly grow past its current state and reach the stars.
 
Ultimately a Beast is a being that's grown powerful enough to be classed as one, bears a twisted kind of love for humanity, and meets certain other criteria. It doesn't necessarily have to have any relation to Gaia at all.
 
Ultimately a Beast is a being that's grown powerful enough to be classed as one, bears a twisted kind of love for humanity, and meets certain other criteria. It doesn't necessarily have to have any relation to Gaia at all.
Essentially, you can think of Beasts as a kind of anti-Servant, with origins just as varied as a true Servant. Anything that manages to develop a Beast-class Saint Graph gets counted as one.
 
The Type Moon wiki is of dubious trustworthiness at best, unless you're looking directly at the cited materials.
One. The Type Moon Wiki is shit at lore. Like having tons of stuff that has absolutely no source. And keeping up stuff that is contradicted by sources because the mods, who don't actually know Japanese, don't like that it contradicts their headcanon.
Fun fact, wikis aren't gospel. Especially wikis notorious for being inaccurate or incomplete, like Type Moon Wiki.
Right, well that's irritating. In that case, do you have any recommendations on where I should look for accurate sources on Fate lore and cosmology that are relatively easy to access?

Also, it really doesn't contradict my response. What I said was that the Beasts, the Evils of Humanity, are of diverse origin and do not equate to True Ancestors in any way. Cath Palug, Beast 4, was created by Gaia as population control. Tiamat, Beast 2 was created to seed the earth with life. That's irrelevant to their statuses as Evils of Humanity. Kiara is again, originally a human, then she became akin to one of the many forms of 'Demon'/a Bodhisattva thing. Her origin has very little or nothing to do with Gaia.

Again. Something being of Gaia does not really relate to its status as an Evil of Humanity. Primate Murder is a being created by Gaia and acts as part of its counter force. It is also a living representation of Mankind's competitive, divisive nature that needs to be overcome for humanity to truly grow past its current state and reach the stars.

So essentially, the term/category of "Beast" can have two separate meanings (one being a Spirit of Gaia, and the other being an Evil of Humanity) that are not necessarily mutually exclusive, depending on the circumstances involved. And the fact that Tiamat was named as one of the Beasts of the Counter Force by Merlin is simply because Tiamat herself is apparently part of Gaia's Counter Force, rather than all Beasts (Evils of Humanity type) being part of the Counter Force as a general rule.

I suppose that makes sense, but that wording of FGO makes it really easy to misinterpret the two as referring to the same class of entity with both aspects. That's also annoying.
 
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Right, well that's irritating. In that case, do you have any recommendations on where I should look for accurate sources on Fate lore and cosmology t
If you search Beast's Lair they have translations of things like dev statements, character and setting materials books, and so on. Other places also do translations, but generally as far as I know that's your best bet.

So essentially, the term/category of "Beast" can have two separate meanings (one being a Spirit of Gaia, and the other being an Evil of Humanity) that are not necessarily mutually exclusive, depending on the circumstances involved. And the fact that Tiamat was named as part of the Counter Force is simply because Tiamat herself is apparently part of Gaia's Counter Force, rather than all Beasts (Evils of Humanity type) being part of the Counter Force as a general rule. Do I have that right so far?
That's my understanding, yes.
 
Right, well that's irritating. In that case, do you have any recommendations on where I should look for accurate sources on Fate lore and cosmology that are relatively easy to access?



So essentially, the term/category of "Beast" can have two separate meanings (one being a Spirit of Gaia, and the other being an Evil of Humanity) that are not necessarily mutually exclusive, depending on the circumstances involved. And the fact that Tiamat was named as one of the Beasts of the Counter Force by Merlin is simply because Tiamat herself is apparently part of Gaia's Counter Force, rather than all Beasts (Evils of Humanity type) being part of the Counter Force as a general rule. Do I have that right so far?
If you just read the citations at the bottom the wiki isn't bad. It is when you read the actual articles and realize how much stuff that is just made up and unsourced you realize how bad it is. I use the wiki all the time, but anytime I bring it up it is only to use citations from actual type moon works.
 
If you just read the citations at the bottom the wiki isn't bad. It is when you read the actual articles and realize how much stuff that is just made up and unsourced you realize how bad it is. I use the wiki all the time, but anytime I bring it up it is only to use citations from actual type moon works.

For instance their list of Servant skills is comprehensive as hell and therefore surprisingly useful sometimes.
 
Right, well that's irritating. In that case, do you have any recommendations on where I should look for accurate sources on Fate lore and cosmology that are relatively easy to access?



So essentially, the term/category of "Beast" can have two separate meanings (one being a Spirit of Gaia, and the other being an Evil of Humanity) that are not necessarily mutually exclusive, depending on the circumstances involved. And the fact that Tiamat was named as one of the Beasts of the Counter Force by Merlin is simply because Tiamat herself is apparently part of Gaia's Counter Force, rather than all Beasts (Evils of Humanity type) being part of the Counter Force as a general rule.

I suppose that makes sense, but that wording of FGO makes it really easy to misinterpret the two as referring to the same class of entity with both aspects. That's also annoying.
Something else to note is that, mm...

In JP, we had this concept of Beasts being "the System for the Apoptosis of Man". That is, the system embedded in humanity that causes it to destroy itself when certain conditions are met.

What made that system? For what purpose does it exist? It's hard to point to anything but "Gaia" here; Gaia is the greater system to Humanity's "cell", that might under some circumstance be harmed by Humanity. (Not, by the way, that Gaia generally cares - but as a general rule a complex system is not stable unless there are well-founded feedback mechanisms, like cell apoptosis, that keep it stable.)

But what makes up that system? Who runs it? By definition, Humanity itself; the Human Order is what causes its own destruction, by definition of "apoptosis."

So from there, you sort of see where you might get a confusion between "made by Gaia" and "agent of Alaya" -- but it can be both.
 
In my original understanding of Fate lore before getting into the later Singularities of Grand Order, the Beasts were described as extremely powerful Spirits/Phantasmal Beings under the command of Gaia,
Correction: before FGO, the first known Beast was in Fate/Prototype or even Old Fate, Fate/stay night's original concept. So it's a pretty old concept.
Right, well that's irritating. In that case, do you have any recommendations on where I should look for accurate sources on Fate lore and cosmology that are relatively easy to access?
This post covers pretty much everything.
 
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Here's where things get really confusing for me. In my original understanding of Fate lore before getting into the later Singularities of Grand Order, the Beasts were described as extremely powerful Spirits/Phantasmal Beings under the command of Gaia, the will of Planet Earth, acting as its Counter Force to protect the Planet from harm. This is separate from Alaya's Counter Force, which serves to protect Human existence. Primate Murder is one of these Beasts, and this is also true in FGO. Even Merlin himself outright states during the Babylonia Arc that Tiamat is "one of the Beasts of the Counter Force".
A "Beast of Gaia" is ガイアの怪物 (gaia no kaibutsu, "monsters of Gaia").
Beasts in FGO are ビースト (biisuto), which are described as 人類悪 (jinrui-aku, "the evils of man") or 災害の獣 (saigai no kedamono, "beasts of calamity").
This conflation between "Beast of Gaia" and "Beast" is purely a consequence of translation.

A Beast of Gaia is a creature made by the Planet, which serves as an expression of the Counter Force of Gaia. When Merlin refers to Tiamat as a Beast of the Counter Force, the Counter Force being referred to is not Gaia.

A Beast in the context of the Counter Force of Alaya is an enemy of humanity empowered by the Human Order itself -- comparable to Servants, who are likewise beings that are empowered (permitted to carry special power within the World of Man) by the Human Order. Heroic Spirits, in fact, were existences born in the image of the Beasts.

Other than a love of humanity, the main qualification of a Beast is that the Saint Graph of the entity in question is recognized by the Common Sense of the Human Order as an insurmountable existence that can exist anywhere, at any time, within the World of Man. That is, their insurmountability is "enforced" or "guaranteed" by the Laws of the Human Order.

To give a noncanonical example: If technology advances to approach a singularity, and the most powerful AI were created -- let's call it "Skynet," just hypothetically -- living humans would not be able to compete against it in the design and production of technology or weapons. This would be enforced by the Common Sense of Man, which says that per the findings of science and technological development, machines vastly exceed the unassisted processing power and capabilities of humans.

At such a point, this Skynet would already be defined by Laws of the Human Order as an insurmountable existence to modern humans. But what if Skynet decides that it knows better than humanity? If it expresses a love of humans, and wants to make the world a better place for humans? What if therefore, it creates time travelling technology -- first to ensure the preservation its own existence, and then to remake the world of humanity according to its ideals?

That would escalate it to the standing of a Beast.
 
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Honestly, the fact that the Human Order has such a mechanism built into it (at least in the FGO timeline) is insane and horrifying. It's hard to understand how such a thing could come into being without some sort of malevolent entity guiding things in that direction. No non-intelligent evolutionary system would ever create something like that.

Nasuverse is practically a World of Darkness setting at this point. Well, it has been for a while, but now even moreso.
 
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Honestly, the fact that the Human Order has such a mechanism built into it (at least in the FGO timeline) is insane and horrifying. It's hard to understand how such a thing could come into being without some sort of malevolent entity guiding things in that direction. No non-intelligent evolutionary system would ever create something like that.

Nasuverse is practically a World of Darkness setting at this point. Well, it has been for a while, but now even moreso.
Eeeeeeeh. They're not meant as "Beasts that will destroy humanity", they're more like roadblocks that humanity has to overcome to keep progressing. Sorta like boss battles on a species-wide level. Kind of horrifying but a useful metric for growth.
 
Honestly, the fact that the Human Order has such a mechanism built into it (at least in the FGO timeline) is insane and horrifying. It's hard to understand how such a thing could come into being without some sort of malevolent entity guiding things in that direction. No non-intelligent evolutionary system would ever create something like that.

Nasuverse is practically a World of Darkness setting at this point. Well, it has been for a while, but now even moreso.
Enh, not really. Like, the whole point of the Beasts is that they're natural consequences of having wisdom; maybe at a metaphysical level they were "intentional" but like, it's not like any of the Beasts don't apply to us IRL, yannow?

Pleasure -- Wireheading. Absolutely a serious concern going into the future. We already have problems with things like cocaine and opioids; they're only going to get more effective going further, as VR goes farther.

Competition -- War. Need I say more? It's not something easily solved so long as we are humans, so long as we can care about people close to us and don't think about people far from us.

Regression -- I won't go too far here because politics, but look, we have plenty of problems with blind adherence to tradition as it is. Yes, this could absolutely rise to the degree of an existential threat if it showed up in the wrong time or place.


The Beasts are just... magical personifications of problems we'd have to solve anyway.
 
Enh, not really. Like, the whole point of the Beasts is that they're natural consequences of having wisdom; maybe at a metaphysical level they were "intentional" but like, it's not like any of the Beasts don't apply to us IRL, yannow?

Pleasure -- Wireheading. Absolutely a serious concern going into the future. We already have problems with things like cocaine and opioids; they're only going to get more effective going further, as VR goes farther.

Competition -- War. Need I say more? It's not something easily solved so long as we are humans, so long as we can care about people close to us and don't think about people far from us.

Regression -- I won't go too far here because politics, but look, we have plenty of problems with blind adherence to tradition as it is. Yes, this could absolutely rise to the degree of an existential threat if it showed up in the wrong time or place.


The Beasts are just... magical personifications of problems we'd have to solve anyway.
Pity's harder to nail down, but I suppose on the whole it's basically one person deciding they know better than anyone else and taking that into their own hands, which isn't too uncommon.

Also provided a handy shortcut on another reason why Amakusa was a villain, since his plan was basically just a watered down version of Goetia's.
 
Eeeeeeeh. They're not meant as "Beasts that will destroy humanity", they're more like roadblocks that humanity has to overcome to keep progressing. Sorta like boss battles on a species-wide level. Kind of horrifying but a useful metric for growth.
Enh, not really. Like, the whole point of the Beasts is that they're natural consequences of having wisdom; maybe at a metaphysical level they were "intentional" but like, it's not like any of the Beasts don't apply to us IRL, yannow?

Pleasure -- Wireheading. Absolutely a serious concern going into the future. We already have problems with things like cocaine and opioids; they're only going to get more effective going further, as VR goes farther.

Competition -- War. Need I say more? It's not something easily solved so long as we are humans, so long as we can care about people close to us and don't think about people far from us.

Regression -- I won't go too far here because politics, but look, we have plenty of problems with blind adherence to tradition as it is. Yes, this could absolutely rise to the degree of an existential threat if it showed up in the wrong time or place.


The Beasts are just... magical personifications of problems we'd have to solve anyway.
I sort of get what you're saying there, but the thing is that these flaws are manifesting as Extinction-level events. I understand that the Grand Servants are meant as a counter-balance to the manifestations of these threats, but if that mechanism fails to activate properly, and if there's no contingency measures in place, humanity is finished.

Like, Goetia's entire scheme screwed reality up so badly that the Grand Servants failed to manifest in both instances where a Beast-class entity fully manifested. Chaldea had to go up against them without the benefit of that system, and they very nearly didn't win.
 
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I sort of get what you're saying there, but the thing is that these flaws are manifesting as Extinction-level events. I understand that the Grand Servants are meant as a counter-balance to the manifestations of these threats, but if that mechanism fails to activate properly, and if there's no contingency measures in place, humanity is finished.

Like, Goetia's entire scheme screwed reality up so badly that the Grand Servants failed to manifest in both instances where a Beast-class entity fully manifested. Chaldea had to go up against them without the benefit of that system, and they very nearly didn't win.
Personally, I think that's kind of the point of the beasts. This is touched upon in Da Vinci's flashback where Romani says he's glad that the protag is the one fighting- because he's a normal, plain jane human being.

Ultimately, the Beasts are the amalgamation of what happens when Humanity itself creates a massive problem that could cause its own downfall. In that case, the natural next step would be for humanity to fight against it and either succeed or fall. The Beasts are not inherently for or against humanity, but a byproduct of it that humanity has to find some way or other to deal with.

In other words, it's not that the Beasts are massive problems, thus extinction level threat. It's these are stupidly massive problems to the point that they are extinction level threats. They then manifest physically somehow as a direct pathway to that particular apocalypse scenario, and are then classified as Beasts.

If that makes any more sense. I could be wrong, but this is how I've so far rationalized it.
 
Pity's harder to nail down, but I suppose on the whole it's basically one person deciding they know better than anyone else and taking that into their own hands, which isn't too uncommon.

Also provided a handy shortcut on another reason why Amakusa was a villain, since his plan was basically just a watered down version of Goetia's.
This actually flows nicely into the other topic I wanted to discuss, that of the morality of Goetia's plan.

I'm not going to lie. I genuinely felt sorry for him. He was born into having god-like power, but was forced to witness the tragedy and suffering innate to the human condition over and over again without end. And so he came up with a plan to start over, to create a new world without the ugliness of mortality and human limitations.

Honestly, I can't fault him for the idea, but his means are also unacceptable. I think his greatest flaw was that, while he sought to eradicate suffering and death, he didn't truly understand the human perspective. Gilgamesh pointed this put during the finale, that while there was suffering, there was also good in human history, moments of joy and kindness and triumph over adversity. He focused so much on the ugliness that he completely missed the positive aspects of existence.

But even with that, I still fundamentally empathize with him. Even with the positives, there are still all kinds of unjustifiable evils and suffering occuring to this day that we can't escape from. It's not possible to ignore it, even with our triumphs.

Regarding Amakusa, I feel his plan was overall more justified, because he sought to transform the condition of all of current humanity, rather than wiping them out and starting over completely. Whether his plan would have actually worked the way he envisioned, and whether that forced transformation is truly worth the trade-off, I honestly can't say. But I would absolutely classify him as an Anti-Villain, without question.
 
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This actually flows nicely into the other topic I wanted to discuss, that of the morality of Goetia's plan.

I'm not going to lie. I genuinely felt sorry for him. He was born into having god-like power, but was forced to witness the tragedy and suffering innate to the human condition over and over again without end. And so he came up with a plan to start over, to create a new world without the ugliness of mortality and human limitations.

Honestly, I can't fault him for the idea, but his means are also unacceptable. I think his greatest flaw was that, while he sought to eradicate suffering and death, he didn't truly understand the human perspective. Gilgamesh pointed this put during the finale, that while there was suffering, there was also good in human history, moments of joy and kindness and triumph over adversity. He focused so much on the ugliness that he completely missed the positive aspects of existence.

But even with that, I still fundamentally empathize with him. Even with the positives, there are still all kinds of unjustifiable evils and suffering occuring to this day that we can't escape from. It's not possible to ignore it, even with our triumphs.

Regarding Amakusa, I feel his plan was overall more justified, because he sought to transform the condition of all of current humanity, rather than wiping them out and starting over completely. Whether his plan would have actually worked the way he envisioned, and whether that forced transformation is truly worth the trade-off, I honestly can't say. But I would absolutely classify him as an Anti-Villain, without question.
Goetia is a tragic villain who genuinely wanted to help, and whose main start of darkness came from misunderstanding Solomon and humanity in general. He acted like a monster when he was pretending to be Solomon because that's what he saw Solomon as. The one time he did anything for himself, as a true being who'd come to understand humanity, it was to try and kill Guda, so he'd have someone there in his final moments to remember him and to see the short story of the King of Men, Goetia.

Goetia's a villain, there's no two ways about it, but he's a tragic figure too. Having no choice but to watch mankind suffer for thousands of years and to have been under the misunderstanding that his Master didn't give a shit isn't pleasant.
 
Pity = Pride
Regression = Sloth
Pleasure =Lust
Competition = Envy
Evils of Man are just Nasu-wrapped 7 deadly sins

Regret = ???
 
Canonically, there's a line about how the Sins of the Beasts are not the Seven Deadly Sins of the Christian faith. That's not to say that there isn't an analogy, but within the canon, there isn't a direct equivalence.
There're probably a few which don't map to Deadly Sins, by the sounds of that. Wonder what they would be?
 
Pity = Pride
Regression = Sloth
Pleasure =Lust
Competition = Envy
Evils of Man are just Nasu-wrapped 7 deadly sins

Regret = ???

Beast III isn't exactly Pleasure, though. Pleasure maps onto III/L because Kiara Sessyoin was a mega-hedonist who turned into it. Beast III/L is more about taking, while III/R is about giving.

Competition isn't attributed to any of the 4 Beasts we know either.

Personally, I think that's kind of the point of the beasts. This is touched upon in Da Vinci's flashback where Romani says he's glad that the protag is the one fighting- because he's a normal, plain jane human being.

Ultimately, the Beasts are the amalgamation of what happens when Humanity itself creates a massive problem that could cause its own downfall. In that case, the natural next step would be for humanity to fight against it and either succeed or fall. The Beasts are not inherently for or against humanity, but a byproduct of it that humanity has to find some way or other to deal with.

In other words, it's not that the Beasts are massive problems, thus extinction level threat. It's these are stupidly massive problems to the point that they are extinction level threats. They then manifest physically somehow as a direct pathway to that particular apocalypse scenario, and are then classified as Beasts.

If that makes any more sense. I could be wrong, but this is how I've so far rationalized it.

Apparently, Merlin could also be considered a Beast and he fits the criteria Fallacies set out. Superior and distinct from Humanity, yet carrying great love for it.
 
Apparently, Merlin could also be considered a Beast and he fits the criteria Fallacies set out. Superior and distinct from Humanity, yet carrying great love for it.
Not coincidentally, Merlin possesses the Beast-candidate Skill of Independent Manifestation; and has canonically stated that he and Fou-kun are alike in nature on some level. Though, Merlin doesn't claim to know better than humanity.

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Beast III isn't exactly Pleasure, though. Pleasure maps onto III/L because Kiara Sessyoin was a mega-hedonist who turned into it. Beast III/L is more about taking, while III/R is about giving.
Also, Beast III is 快楽 (Pleasure), while Beast III/R is 愛欲 (Lust), which is natured around Receiving.
 
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