Comparison - Because a system of intelligence that can only compare against each other are liable to optimize for irrelevant, useless things. Case in point, every ancient caste of nobles ever inevitably develops layers and layers of frippery and formalities and lace as they need to outcompete each other, none of which provides any real value to society outside their tiny caste. Acknowledging that there is no universal "point" and then defining your own anyway, setting your own standards and holding yourself to self-improvement by those standards rather than comparing yourself to others, is a requirement for progress as a species.
Well, Fou-kun's stated motivation as the 4th Beast was something like the desire to eliminate the ugliness of comparison, by way of embodying comparison himself (and mercy-killing the human race). That seems a bit different from Goetia and Tiamat, who seek for humanity to survive in a different form (without agency).

Though I suppose the case can be made that it's only because the humans possessed feelings of comparison that Fou-kun could potentially mature into the 4th Beast.
 
Well, Fou-kun's stated motivation as the 4th Beast was something like the desire to eliminate the ugliness of comparison, by way of embodying comparison himself (and mercy-killing the human race). That seems a bit different from Goetia and Tiamat, who seek for humanity to survive in a different form (without agency).

Though I suppose the case can be made that it's only because the humans possessed feelings of comparison that Fou-kun could potentially mature into the 4th Beast.
Mm. My argument is rather, mm...

What are the Class Containers? Like, before we get into implementation details about Skills and Attributes and Saint Graphs.

They're archetypes. The Heroic Spirit summoned into them fulfill those archetypes to some degree or other, usually deviating at least some - but the foundation of the summoning are archetypes, roles played by various fighters in combat, roles played by various characters in the narrative.

So my argument is that the Beasts are the same. Behind the Beasts themselves are the particular Sin/archetype that they embody, are born from. Goetia was the "concrete realization"/"material" used to implement the "abstract concept"/"mold" of Beast I of Pity, for example.

I support this line of logic with Gilgamesh's line, that the Beasts are fundamentally born of humans. You can certainly argue that Tiamat and Four are, in some vague sense, "born" of humanity - but the chain of logic is long and rather sketchy. On the other hand, if we propose that "Beast II" is just the "container", formed by mankind's childish desire for Regression, that Tiamat was forced/fit into by the Human Order, then we simply don't need to explain it: Tiamat has no real relation to humanity except for being symbolic of "the mother devouring her child," having if anything a stronger tie to the gods and monsters that she more directly birthed, but her container, and thus her existence, is premised on a real desire that humanity holds dear.
 
On the other hand, if we propose that "Beast II" is just the "container", formed by mankind's childish desire for Regression, that Tiamat was forced/fit into by the Human Order, then we simply don't need to explain it:
I suppose what I'm saying is, Goetia grants pity to Man, but it shouldn't be the human tendency to direct pity at others that gives rise to the Beast that is Goetia. "Pity" isn't the sin that humans have engaged in to bring about this result, as far as we know. Rather, what directly brought Goetia forth was human suffering and the desire for salvation. Losing to Goetia is "to give in to the pity of another," rather than "stagnating as a consequence of one's own pity." (Or maybe it's actually self-pity ... ?)

Desire for "Regression" and "Pleasure" more classically fit in with your theory, but the 4th Beast's "Comparison" is likewise not a complete match. Losing to him would be "giving in to comparison," but the outcome of such seems to be annihilation rather than stagnation.

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Well, given that Demons are born from human desires, I guess the argument could be made that the pity involved here is ultimately the pity that humanity directs at itself ...
 
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I suppose what I'm saying is, Goetia grants pity to Man, but it shouldn't be the human tendency to direct pity at others that gives rise to the Beast that is Goetia. "Pity" isn't the sin that humans have engaged in to bring about this result, as far as we know. Rather, what directly brought Goetia forth was human suffering and the desire for salvation. Losing to Goetia is "to give in to the pity of another," rather than "stagnating as a consequence of one's own pity." (Or maybe it's actually self-pity ... ?)

Desire for "Regression" and "Pleasure" more classically fit in with your theory, but the 4th Beast's "Comparison" is likewise not a complete match. Losing to him would be "giving in to comparison," but the outcome of such seems to be annihilation rather than stagnation.

EDIT:

Well, given that Demons are born from human desires, I guess the argument could be made that the pity involved here is ultimately the pity that humanity directs at itself ...
More metaphors. The Nasuverse loves its fantasies made physical, after all.

First, I'll argue that in all cases, giving in to the Beasts leads not to stagnation but to annihilation. It's called the Apoptosis of Man, after all. (And metaphorically speaking, stagnation is annihilation anyway - annihilation of everything that makes life worth living and humanity worth preserving, at least as presented in, say, the world of Last Encore.) Losing to Goetia? Fundamentally misunderstanding us as he did, there is no guarantee that the new species would be at all close enough to humanity to be called the same. Tiamat? The Lahmu are nothing like us. And Kiara would simply "enlighten" us to pleasure, one by one, until there were nothing left.

Second, my argument is that rather than the causal chain being direct, humanity directly creating Goetia and Tiamat and Four, that humanity has created the Archetypes in the mode of failure states, and the Beasts are merely the beings who have been assigned their roles according to compatibility and symbolic resemblance.

Mundanely speaking, what does "succumbing to pity" look like? One or more First World nations, wealthy enough to want to help people and arrogant enough not to listen, tries to "help" - and ends up causing way more harm than good. I'm sure we can all come up with our own examples from recent history. Taken to such an extreme that the resulting catastrophe destroys all of humanity - perhaps through causing a nuclear crisis. In other words, a group of powerful individuals, allegedly benevolent, in a system designed to serve and save humanity, is the agent that dooms us. -- Goetia. His Pity is not our own pity, except insofar as he is a collection of demons, but he nevertheless plays the role of "our own pity come to destroy us."

"Succumbing to regression". Clinging so tightly to the past that we lose all ability to move forward. Modern innovations are discarded in favor of ancient favorites, modern ideas in favor of ancient traditions - in general, the people of the present in favor of the people of the past. The true agents of our destruction are simply ourselves - but if we were to imagine, like a poet or an artist might, an external face to this Sin, it would be precisely the figure of those doting ancestors, the ancient Mother to which we pay respects and whose refusal to let us leave the nest brings our death. -- Tiamat. There is no reasonable sense in which we created the mother of all the gods (except perhaps in one of the in-between states as the Age of Gods faded and the Age of Man began, in which Tiamat existed only because humans had faith in her), nor is her desire to embrace her children again at all directly causally related to our desire for Regression, but again, she nevertheless plays the role of "our devouring mother".

Kiara is probably the most obvious, so I'll mostly skip her, other than to note that in a certain twisted sense, she is certainly enlightening people to perfect ecstasy/nirvana...

Finally, the original point of contention "Comparison." Primate Murder can certainly be described in terms of "that which was born from competition between ourselves" - without that conflict he would never have taken form as Primate Murder - but more importantly, the metaphorical angle. Civilizational death by comparison is, bluntly, war. Nations growing more and more devoted to their posturing and their points of contention, putting aside all other factors, until they are competing without regard to their own citizens' safety or livelihoods. Nasu is not the first to imagine War as a savage beast, a cruel hound - the dogs of war, indeed - nor do I think he will be the last. Primate Murder may not be, strictly speaking, our own comparison come back to haunt us except by his own supernatural mechanics, but he certainly well serves the role of "a metaphor for honor and conflict beyond all reason".


--- Completely off topic from the above, but it occurs to me that as far as we know, Primate Murder only exists in timelines where Altrouge raises him, right? AKA Tsukihime-ish timelines?

AKA the ones where Zepia calculated humanity's eventual doom, and all of Atlas followed? The one we were earlier theorizing might be an entire branch slated for removal as of the next QTL, hence irrevocably doomed?

It occurs to me that if the Human Order can't muster the Seven Grands, and there is similarly no ability to go back and "undo" him, defeating him before he is born in the shape of Four, then humanity might well be inevitably doomed to death-by-Beast in those timelines. The doomed-ness of Tsukihime might be entirely premised on Primate Murder's existence.
 
--- Completely off topic from the above, but it occurs to me that as far as we know, Primate Murder only exists in timelines where Altrouge raises him, right? AKA Tsukihime-ish timelines?
Primate Murder as described in Materials exists as a consequence of coming into the care of Altrouge; but it isn't guaranteed that that's the only way that he can come about. Also, even as Primate Murder is an analogue of Fou-kun, it isn't necessarily the case that Primate Murder and Fou-kun matured as the hypothetical 4th Beast would necessarily be as identical existences.

The Beasts are a function of the Human Order, and the Human Order doesn't pulse with vitality in Tsukihime's Universe. Nasu said that a different "principle" reigns there, but never specified as to what. The apparent analogue to Goetia there isn't referred to as a Beast; and so it isn't clear that the "title" of Beast really holds the same meaning.
AKA the ones where Zepia calculated humanity's eventual doom, and all of Atlas followed? The one we were earlier theorizing might be an entire branch slated for removal as of the next QTL, hence irrevocably doomed?
It isn't given that Atlas didn't anticipate the end of the world in timelines outside of Tsukihime. Zepia, on the other hand, is given in Grand Order as the last known Director of Atlas as of 2016. Relatedly, Labyrinth implies that Tsukihime exists in its own Universe rather than merely being timelines designated for culling in a Fate Universe.
 
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Are Anne Bonny and Mary Read a couple? They're referred to as the yuri pirates on the FGO thread by a few folk, and I'm kinda curious. The Type Moon wiki seems to just imply they're close friends, in contrast, with Anne regarding Mary as nothing but a friend and little sister.

...They're also 10-12 cm apart and Mary nowhere near as short as what her card art implies; Mary's 158cm being average for woman to my understanding, with Anne's 171cm being a bit taller. Kinda neat how they don't have a wish for the Grail but pursue it anyway because they're pirates and it's treasure, too.

Any other Servant who're like that? Actually, wouldn't 'no wish for the grail' mean that A&M could be summoned as Ruler?
 
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That must have been in another branch of the tree of time destined for culling thanks to a quantum time lock.

miss me with that grand order shit

Are Anne Bonny and Mary Read a couple?

fwiw they were almost a couple IN REAL LIFE

The story goes that Anne Bonny revealed her true gender to Mary Read because she was attracted to Read and want to pursue a relationship - thinking that Read was a man. So Read tells her, 'actually, I'm a woman too.' Supposedly, Jack Rackham was jealous of Read, not knowing that she was a woman, because of the closeness of the relationship between Read and Bonny.
 
miss me with that grand order shit
sorrymasen fordo-san, sumimascuse me but every timeline in which i miss you with this grand order shit is designated for culling

fwiw they were almost a couple IN REAL LIFE

The story goes that Anne Bonny revealed her true gender to Mary Read because she was attracted to Read and want to pursue a relationship - thinking that Read was a man. So Read tells her, 'actually, I'm a woman too.' Supposedly, Jack Rackham was jealous of Read, not knowing that she was a woman, because of the closeness of the relationship between Read and Bonny.
yarrr scissor me timbers
 
you jape now but just imagine where this franchise will be in as little as five years

you will pray for culling
In five years we'll probably be at the "ID-tagged waifus carry ID-tagged craft essences into battle in a series of proxy wars across the globe - mobage, and its consumption of iTunes and a Google Play cards, has become a well-oiled machine" level.
 
Snake as assassin when.
Alright fuck it I put in the ill-advised work now you all have to sit through it.

MGSV spoiler warning, if there's anybody left that actually cares about that.
Name: Venom Snake
Class: Assassin

Strength: D
Endurance: D
Agility: C
Mana: E
Luck: D

Skills:

Presence Concealment: B+

The ability to hide one's nature as a Servant and their 'footprint' on the world. Assassin's rank is sufficient that if he were to lie flat on his stomach in the middle of a street in broad daylight, he could not possibly be discovered unless an enemy drew close enough to step on him. While this concealment will rank down depending on how quickly he is moving, discovery is based on visual contact - even sprinting full-tilt, Assassin cannot be heard.

Instinct: B

A kind of 'sixth sense' for danger that draws close to precognition. Assassin's senses are so finely tuned that he would be aware of a threat even with his back turned or in complete darkness, and react so quickly that the response seems rehearsed. It is almost impossible to get the drop on him.

Charisma: A (C)

A talent determining popularity and leadership. While Assassin was never a real statesman or commander, he possessed a drive and strength that naturally drew fellow soldiers to him. This raw charisma, this legend, is what allowed him to unite soldiers of all creeds under his own banner. His aptitude should be higher, but for some unknown reason it has ranked down sharply.

Innovation: C

A skill which represents the triumph of man over mystery, technology over thaumaturgy. Assassin did not possess anything but his own human capability in life, having ascended to the level of a Heroic Spirit through fame and worship. What he did have was skill, almost inhuman on its own. What he did have was a legend in which he fought dozens of superhuman opponents and emerged victorious every time. His Noble Phantasm permits him the full power of this skill, which strengthens him against Heroic Spirits who possess some kind of 'superhuman' ability - magic, Divinity, monstrous lineage, etc.

Noble Phantasms:

Diamond Dogs - Shining Lights, Even In Death: C

Assassin's army, undyingly loyal even from beyond the grave. This manifests as small artificial diamonds set into the unit affiliation patches on Assassin's shoulders. The Noble Phantasm loses many of its more powerful applications under the Assassin class - its ability to manifest in the real world in place of Territory Creation, its loyal guard of soldiers-familiars on the level of weak Servants - but its utility remains. It could be considered a kind of 'passive' Item Creation which transcends class boundaries, constantly developing new equipment for Assassin to utilize in the War. These could range from a set of binoculars capable of scanning an enemy Servant in a pastiche of Master clairvoyance to a device that allows him to truly turn invisible, or even a replacement prosthetic arm capable of calling down thunderbolts. Its weakness lies in inflexibility - each new piece of gear requisitioned requires an initial cost in mana, and takes several minutes to arrive.

The Man Who Sold The World - Never Lost Control: EX

Assassin is not the true Heroic Spirit 'Big Boss'. He is merely one of his soldiers, a member of the rank and file who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. He saved his beloved commander's from an explosion and paid the price, a massive chunk of shrapnel spearing his brain. His story ended, and also began.

As a tool used to disguise the presence of the true Big Boss, it would be more accurate to call him a Noble Phantasm than a Servant. He possesses no identity, will or passion of his own. He is an empty vessel which was filled with the knowledge and skills of the greatest soldier in the world to be sent on one final mission. To rise, fall, and die an imperfect reflection, for his commander's dream.

Two Servants will be summoned the night that Assassin is called to the world. His commander, the man whose phantom he became, will appear elsewhere unseen. The true Big Boss, True Assassin, will have free reign to select a site for the establishment of his own Noble Phantasm and build up his strength so long as Assassin lives. Upon his death, however, the concealment will be lifted.
Name: Big Boss
Class: Assassin

Strength: D
Endurance: D
Agility: C
Mana: D
Luck: E

Skills:

Presence Concealment: EX (B+)

While False Assassin is alive, the existence of Assassin categorically cannot be recognized. Others who witness him in action will either mistake him for False Assassin or, if this is logically impossible, will simply be able to discern his Class or identity. This curse is lifted with the death of False Assassin, though Assassin can reveal himself to individuals at his own discretion - by default, even his own Master is unaware of his existence.

Instinct: B

A kind of 'sixth sense' for danger that draws close to precognition. Assassin's senses are so finely tuned that he would be aware of a threat even with his back turned or in complete darkness, and react so quickly that the response seems rehearsed. It is almost impossible to get the drop on him.

Charisma: A

A talent determining popularity and leadership. Assassin was a symbol, an icon, a living legend that all soldiers worldwide aspired to emulate. His will lived on long after his death, and his every action was endlessly imitated by the fighting men and women who adored him. Though hated and feared by world governments, among soldiers he possessed the highest level of popularity a human being is capable of.

Innovation: B

A skill which represents the triumph of man over mystery, technology over thaumaturgy. Assassin did not possess anything but his own human capability in life, having ascended to the level of a Heroic Spirit through fame and worship. What he did have was skill, almost inhuman on its own. What he did have was a legend in which he fought dozens of superhuman opponents and emerged victorious every time. What he did was change the geopolitical landscape, the nature of warfare, and advance battlefield technology by leaps and bounds. This translates to a bonus against Servants who possess 'superhuman' abilities - magic, Divinity, monstrous lineage, etc.

Noble Phantasms

Outer Heaven - We Will Forsake Our Countries And Become One With The Earth: A+

Assassin's crowning achievement in life, a nation forged by his own hands and populated by soldiers from all over the world. Within this territory he is a living legend, granted a mighty fame bonus by the adoration of his men. Within this territory human potential is unlocked, capable of transforming even mundane conscripts abducted from the surrounding city into pseudo-Servant familiars depending on their innate abilities. Assassin's men are fanatically loyal and operate in such cohesion they appear to ignorant observers as if commanded by hivemind. This territory also permits the development of technology capable of supplanting and defeating the magic of ages past. And mightiest of all, an EX-ranked artefact immortalized in myth - the cardboard box.

Metal Gear ZEKE - The Dream Of Deterrence: A

The missing link in warfare, the ultimate answer to nuclear deterrence, the war machine that shaped a century. The Metal Gear. This particular model is the one that Assassin owned in his Nicaragua days, preserved by its fame. ZEKE was the icon that put MSF on the map, and made Assassin's nation the target of government antipathy worldwide. Customizable and able to be strengthened by the effects of Outer Heaven as a Noble Phantasm, yet while a formidable threat it is nonetheless entirely surmountable by the majority of Servants. Its true purpose is that of a deterrent. It is armed with a nuclear ICBM which, when fired, would obliterate the entire stage of the Grail War. Whether Assassin's enemies are strong enough to withstand the blast or not, the result is the same - the local ley lines, and the Grail itself, are destroyed. Mutually assured destruction.

The Man Who Sold The World - Never Lost Control: EX

See the Noble Phantasm's listing on Fake Assassin's sheet.
Way ahead of you.
 
So, is Apocrypha worth a watch? I don't know anything about it except who's in it and that people hate a guy named Sieg, which I assume is the guy in the cover with Jeanne.
 
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