Remove ads

Type Moon General

Also, if Beast III/R negates all the Skills of Saver, does that mean Buddha can no longer beat her? Or is his esoteric ability to turn off all sexual desire not a Skill?
 
GaRbS said:
Is Kiara a real Bodhisattva? Yes, I know she's called one but I want to be sure.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
My understanding is that she's a failed one. She had the potential, but went the complete opposite direction. In other words, a Nega-Saver.
Who? said:
Kiara doesn't have an altruistic or empathetic bone in her body. Her being referred to as a Demonic Bodhisattva is probably a reference to how her entire shtick is kind of an inversion of the point of a Bodhisattva - rather than postponing enlightenment to helps others, usually through ascetic principles - she uses others to reach the ultimate climax, and doesn;t care a whit about them.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Not entirely correct. It's all about circumstances-before Zepar fucked up, recall that GO!Kiara was a genuinely nice person.
 
GaRbS said:
Is that from how Bodhisattvas are in RL, or in Nasu?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

It's how Bodhisattvas are in real life - to the best of my somewhat limited knowledge. I don't believe we have too much on Bodhisattvas in the Nasuverse?

Fate/EXTRA Material All the World's Desires said:
The reason why this attack's power, visuals, and scale are so huge is because reincarnated Kiara is a being similar to Saver.
People who devote their life to bringing salvation to Sattvas (living things) are referred to as Bodhisattvas. People who have attained moksha (libertation/release) and become Buddhas are also Bodhisattvas. A Bodhisattva is a god of universe scale and power, and can easily manage things on the scale of the Solar System.
Buddhism has a sense of scale of the universe that stands out from that of other religions. There are concepts like Nayuta (1060) and "The Infinitely Vast Number" (1068) which were created to represent the scale and size of a Buddha.
The entire universe is the domain of a Buddha. In Buddhism the universe in considered to be made up of three billion solar systems (a great trichiliocosm). A galaxy comprises of 3000 solar systems (a small trichiliocosm), and 1000 small trichiliocosms make up a trichiliocosm.
This actually aligns with the real scale of galaxies, galaxy clusters, and super clusters.
India had this stuff figured out over 2000 years ago? Holy crap!
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

This is the most relevant thing I think. So, apparently Kiara is a Bodhisattva? Just a really bad or failed one, since she's only really interested in achieving moksha for herself. Unless Nasu just decided to talk about it becauae it was vaguely relevant for purposes of scale, rather than implying Kiara is a Bodhisattva.

Hayateknight said:
I guess she would have gotten along with Extra Vlad then. Shame he was not in CCC.

:V
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

It's heavily implied in CCC that Ronnie summoned Liz instead - Liz mentions being summoned by a weirdass clown who she was quite happy to gank?

Which is frankly an improvement - the innuendos are fun and all, but I find Elizabeth a way more interesting character than Extra Vlad. Probably because she had a decent chunk of a game, and multiple appearances to develop her character.

GaRbS said:
Also, if Beast III/R negates all the Skills of Saver, does that mean Buddha can no longer beat her? Or is his esoteric ability to turn off all sexual desire not a Skill?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Well, to begin with the text for the skill has room for interpretation.

Grand Order wiki said:
Nega Savoir: A
The fate of a beast who, despite possessing the qualifications of a messiah (Savior), wanted to save only her own world, It negates all the skills possessed by the Savior and Ruler Classes, increases the fascination chances towards targets with A Rank or below in MGI to 300%, and raises up the buff effects applied by Kiara to 200%.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

When it says "skills possessed by the Saviour and Ruler Classes" is it referring to all Skills, or Class skills?

And how does it interact with Enlightenment of the Sacred Fig?

Enlightenment of the Sacred Fig EX
Protection covering only one who has arrived at the truth of the world, the answer of humanity. A testament of "protecting the world", called anti-purge protection.
Unconditionally reduces damage from physical attacks, conceptual attacks, inter-dimensional attacks by an amount equivalent to his own HP. Also shuts out mental interference 100%. If it's Saver who has attained the EX rank, it should be possible to tranquilly receive even the seven desires of man.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Is it a conceptual "attack"? If so, would it deal less damage than Buddha's HP? I'd argue that in any case, Buddha would still be immune to her charm effect, since it's, well, Buddha. Though if Nega-Saviour does indeed block all Skills, he'd reasonably lose. He'd probably get a shounen-esque powerup and beat her up anyway.

Grue said:
Not entirely correct. It's all about circumstances-before Zepar fucked up, recall that GO!Kiara was a genuinely nice person.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Yeah, I remembered. I just figured that since the question was about evil Kiara, there wasn't much point to bringing that up?

Incidental to this, @fallacies could you tell me if the original Japanese for EoSF could be linked to the Beasts somehow? Because if it was the six poisons, it'd make sense' since that's Buddhist. But it seems weird for it to be referencing the seven sins of Christianity in a entry for the Buddha?

■ カラリパヤット：EX
古代インド武術。力、才覚のみに頼らない、合理的な思想に基づく武術の始祖。
攻撃より守りに特化している。
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
 
Who? said:
This is the most relevant thing I think. So, apparently Kiara is a Bodhisattva? Just a really bad or failed one, since she's only really interested in achieving moksha for herself. Unless Nasu just decided to talk about it becauae it was vaguely relevant for purposes of scale, rather than implying Kiara is a Bodhisattva.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Kiara's FGO Profile said:
---however.
Her true nature is that of a bewitching bodhisattva who did nothing but throughly investigate narcissism and pleasure until she reached nirvana.
A tender sadist and a hard masochist.
Although speaks from the bottom of her heart that she "loves humans", she is a monster of narcissism that speaks of morals simply "for her own sake", speaks of the preciousness of life simply "for her own sake" and also protects the world simply "for her own sake".
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Apparently she is a bodhisattva in the Nasuverse.
 
The hilarious thing is according the Demonic Boddhisattva CE she sees all of humanity (except herself) as immature Beasts
 
I was going to make a hot take joke along the lines of 'Kiara did nothing wrong' but then I realised that's probably a real position of some fans ...
 
Master of Chaos said:
Her true nature is that of a bewitching bodhisattva who did nothing but throughly investigate narcissism and pleasure until she reached nirvana.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Squirtodyle said:
Apparently she is a bodhisattva in the Nasuverse.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
However:
Grand Order In-Game Material said:
その本性は自己愛と快楽をひたすら突き詰め、
Her true nature is, as of an earnest, devoted interrogation of the matter of self-love and pleasure,
解脱した魔性菩薩。
a demonic-natured Bodhisattva who so obtained deliverance.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
解脱した (gedatsu-shita) could mean "having reached Nirvana," but the conventional translation would simply be "deliverance / liberation / salvation." In the context of describing a beautiful woman, 魔性 (mashou) could meaning "supernaturally bewitching / beguiling," but a more general literal translation of the kanji would be "ma-natured" or "demonic-natured."

More to the point (not my translation):
Extra CCC Material said:
Devilish Bodhisattva [circumstances] P209-210

Mashou Bosatsu.
This term is the widely-known nickname of a certain somebody.
The horns jutting from her head are devil horns.
This shows that she is the enemy of the enlightened (buddhas).
She is the embodiment of self-love, and prioritizes pleasure over everything else.
Her pleasure is achieved by using human lives and treating them as sustenance. She is a walking disaster for man and beast alike.
Those who met this woman were touched by her great kindness and would devotedly follow her as though she has cast a spell upon them.
After that, due to her great desire to be loved, she would (foolishly) use them to indulge in her sexual desires. The problem is that the more you fulfill your sexual desires, the less satisfying it becomes to do so.
This woman has no desire for dilute, unsatisfying "pleasure."
Her followers fell into despair because she no longer showed any concern for them, "She won't love us ever again." and thus they ended their lives. In the end, the victims had their bodies and everything they had completely devoured by her.
She is certainly guilty, but since all her followers who committed suicide were thankful to her, she was unable to be charged and prosecuted.
It goes without saying, her followers were simply mistakenly appreciative of her, or were deceived. Her followers were vaguely aware of the fact that she was not a saint, but actually a devil, but they were unable to escape from her devilish grasp, and found their lives degenerating.

A similar situation is also true for Kirei Kotomine, although he takes things in a somewhat different direction.
Kotomine recognized himself as evil, and decided that evil was appropriate for him, thus he strayed from the path of human morals.
This woman (a Devilish Bodhisattva) considers all her actions, regardless of what, to be good. Quite the haughty evil spirit.
This evil spirit of a woman lies to herself about nothing, but soaks her words with lies to entrap everyone around her as food; their lives expended completely for her own sake.
The absoluteness of her ego, her unwavering attitude towards everything; to a regular person it might seem as though she is on the border of enlightenment. If there were a specific reason that her followers called her a "saint," it would be because at this characteristic.​

◆​

The appearance she takes on after her demonic reincarnation is one of the highlights in CCC (and also a bit far out).
Its formal name is The Third Pleasure Heaven of Deeply Grateful Existence (随喜自在第三外法快楽天).
She is a new god descended from the Covetous Mother Goddess.
Only Saver, who has by all rights mastered the esoteric ability to completely turn off his sexual desire, is able to match up to this woman incarnate.
Rather than using the mysterious effects that are privilege only to God's to attack, her primary method of attacking is using her hands. This is because according to her directly touching her opponent and having her opponent touch her is more pleasurable.
Having been designed at the same time as the Fate/EXTRA boss characters, she was made to be completely opposite of the others.
"Fate always has the most amazing boss characters. We want to make sure things stay that way in EXTRA as well." said Mr. Niifu in a presentation, "In that case, why don't we make her name a cross between the names of the main villains of Fate/stay night and The Garden of Sinners (Kara no Kyoukai)? And that's how she got her name.
As for myself, at that time I had just cleared Bayonetta, which is why CCC features such a high tension scenario. I bared my desire for all to see, "Well see, I really want to write a slutty bitch into the story. A super erotic bitch to end them all. Like why the heck don't we just make the game into a new genre called Code Bitch?" So I went to Takeshi Takeuchi with a variety of nonsensical requests such as, "Please make the last boss costume naked-apron (Hadaka Apron)."​
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
So, Master of Chaos could've bothered to look at Extra CCC Material for reference, but didn't.
In any case, a "demonic-natured Bodhisattva" isn't semantically the same thing as a Bodhisattva.

Also, "Only Saver, who has by all rights mastered the esoteric ability to completely turn off his sexual desire, is able to match up to this woman incarnate."
Who? said:
Incidental to this, @fallacies could you tell me if the original Japanese for EoSF could be linked to the Beasts somehow? Because if it was the six poisons, it'd make sense' since that's Buddhist. But it seems weird for it to be referencing the seven sins of Christianity in a entry for the Buddha?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Hard to say?

Thematically, the "sins" over which the Beasts preside are the principle from which their actions spawn. Goetia holds pity for humanity -- and therefore is the "Beast of Pity." Tiamat wishes regression unto humanity -- and therefore is the "Beast of Regression." Neither of these are the nature of the stagnation that would implicitly come of being defeated by them.

In either case, "the stagnation that comes of defeat" is "an abdication of agency," which doesn't really sound like something that could be described as "the seven desires of man."

Unrelatedly (not my translation):
Turner of the Wheel [noble phantasm name] P198

Chakravartin.
This is Saver's minor Noble Phantasm. It's a weapon based on an implement used by usually unarmed Buddha to defeat their enemies.
Chakravartin (Turner of the Wheel) is the concept of the "ideal universal ruler" that was used in the Vedic period of ancient India.
The weapon Chakravartin is a 7km wide chakram of light that is expanded into the sky above the Buddha. While revolving slowly, it shoots arrows of light at the Servants within its ring.
Think of it as a mobile artillery platform that can shoot in any direction. The ring of light is like a rail that the artillery platform moves along.
The number of rings of light increase each turn, until it has reached the maximum of seven. These seven rings correspond to the seven treasures that the Turner of the Wheel (ruler) possesses.
The rings are reminiscent of rainbows, and at the peak of battle this weapons ultimate attack "Transmigration Into One" can be activated by calling it's true name.
The rings of light combine into one with a clang and the ring starts spinning at high speed. Before long it morphs to resemble the ring that floats behind the Celestial Buddha Variocana, and pillars of light coming from the entire 360 degrees of the ring are focused on the player's Servant, and the convergence causes a huge explosion that resembles a black hole.
…Well of course this is a written description that didn't take production costs into consideration in tlightest, so of course it was axed. I guess if you want this level of visuals you have to do it in an action game.​
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The Seven Treasures of the Wheel-Turner are Conviction, Virtue, Conscience, Concern, Listening, Generosity, and Discernment. Not saying that "the seven desires of man" necessarily have anything to do with this, but seven as a number does occasionally figure into Buddhist symbology.
 
Last edited:
where were you when we got fate/babies before tsukihime 2

cri more arc. this is what you deserve.
 
So if I am getting it right Kiara is sorta Charismatic/Beautiful/Intelligent but underneath all that is a extremely self-centered manchild who only loves herself but will defend that as something divine because after all she is using you to her pleasure and that's the greatest achievement anything will ever have in their short pathetic useless lifes

Mac an Deise said:
Comedy spin off like the cooking spin off.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Tamamo is making the Hikaru Genji face and Nero is Nero

We already know what to expect

MiracleGrow said:
I can see Kayneth beating Illya. He just needs to build up enough speed in his wheel chair to run down Illya when she least expects it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Rider ARCHIBALD confirmed
 
Last edited:
Vanargand said:
So if I am getting it right Kiara is sorta Charismatic/Beautiful/Intelligent but underneath all that is a extremely self-centered manchild who only loves herself but will defend that as something divine because after all she is using you to her pleasure and that's the greatest achievement anything will ever have in their short pathetic useless lifes
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Outside of "using her followers for pleasure," most of her actions can apparently be interpreted as legitimately benevolent and saintly. It's just that her motives are not; and her followers eventually self-annihilate as a consequence of prolonged exposure to her.
 
Last edited:
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top