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Type Moon General

Who? said:
Why?

Just. Why.



At a guess, identification with Shirou is easier on the writer, since he's a guy.

Weirdly enough, portraying Rin as some ridiculously overpowered badass would actually make more sense - she's a genius magus, a student of the Second Magician, a highly trained martial artist... Shirou just makes a desolate wasteland with a bunch of sharp objects in it - and has to cheat by interacting with a future version of himself that already has it.
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Rin did get her ass kicked by Illya so genius mage doesn't mean much.

Of course that was before training under Zelretch so who knows how their future selves would go?

Except Illya has no future so it doesn't matter I suppose.
 
BrokenAscendent said:
I suppose. Still, its not like Illya is that strong, so it serves as something of a bench marker.
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Uh. What? Ilya's absolutely bullshit strong. She's like 70% Magic Circuit, her Command Spells can force Herc to obey her when he can usually resist them, and she can power him with absolutely no issues whatsoever, even when he's running at full blast. Doing something somewhat similar caused Guda to pass right the fuck out instantly. On top of that, the Einzbern Sorcery Trait allows them to skip all of the actual spellcasting and move on to the actual effect just by pumping in enough mana into it, and mana is something Ilya has in abundance.

Rin is to Ilya what Usain Bolt is to the Flash.
 
Squirtodyle said:
Uh. What? Ilya's absolutely bullshit strong. She's like 70% Magic Circuit, her Command Spells can force Herc to obey her when he can usually resist them, and she can power him with absolutely no issues whatsoever, even when he's running at full blast. Doing something somewhat similar caused Guda to pass right the fuck out instantly. On top of that, the Einzbern Sorcery Trait allows them to skip all of the actual spellcasting and move on to the actual effect just by pumping in enough mana into it, and mana is something Ilya has in abundance.

Rin is to Ilya what Usain Bolt is to the Flash.
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No I mean compared to some of the higher tier people.

In the grail war Illya is top tier, but vs some of the stronger people like those who lead the magic association, I imagine shes not that strong.
 
Ilya is one of the strongest modern mages to have actually appeared 'on screen.' If it wasn't for the Aozakis I think she actually would be the strongest; there are characters described in the side materials that are stronger, but as far as 'appearing on television' goes, Ilya is big dog on campus.
 
Rin is pretty ridiculous, considering as she matures she'll be in the top 100 of the clock tower's history because of really good circuits, being a genius and an Average One.

She's very undeveloped as of F/SN.

Illya however is the greatest creation of the Einzberns and an absolute monster. Of course she'll be eaten alive by the lords of the clock tower, Lorelei the headmaster, jewel killer, atlas heads, Ciel and many others but she is insanely powerful as a master.
 
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BrokenAscendent said:
In the grail war Illya is top tier, but vs some of the stronger people like those who lead the magic association, I imagine shes not that strong.
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If your metric for "not that strong" involves comparisons to the literal best of the best, then you run into stuff like saying that Fionn or Beowulf aren't all that strong because people like Gilgamesh could stomp them. Other magi being more absurd doesn't make Ilya any less absurd.
 
Squirtodyle said:
If your metric for "not that strong" involves comparisons to the literal best of the best, then you run into stuff like saying that Fionn or Beowulf aren't all that strong because people like Gilgamesh could stomp them. Other magi being more absurd doesn't make Ilya any less absurd.
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I'm not saying that.
BrokenAscendent said:
Rin did get her ass kicked by Illya so genius mage doesn't mean much.

Of course that was before training under Zelretch so who knows how their future selves would go?

Except Illya has no future so it doesn't matter I suppose.
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BrokenAscendent said:
I suppose. Still, its not like Illya is that strong, so it serves as something of a bench marker.
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My point was that Illya beat rin, so 'genius' didn't help her in the grail war, so it doesn't mean much.
Of course Illya is strong, in the course of the grail war, but there are people stronger than her easily within the setting.
So no, I'm not trying to compare to the best of the best, don't put words in my mouth.
 
BrokenAscendent said:
My point was that Illya beat rin, so 'genius' didn't help her in the grail war, so it doesn't mean much.
Of course Illya is strong, in the course of the grail war, but there are people stronger than her easily within the setting.
So no, I'm not trying to compare to the best of the best, don't put words in my mouth.
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I'm mildly confused here, admittedly. There are magi that are much stronger in the setting. You also said that "its not like Illya is that strong", and then mentioned that there are other people in the setting stronger than her. These magi tend to be on the very upper tier of magi. My understanding of this was that you were comparing her to those stronger magi, who are the same ones that would be considered "the best of the best", by virtue of being intense bullshit like Touko or by wielding True Magic. Is that wrong?
 
Squirtodyle said:
I'm mildly confused here, admittedly. There are magi that are much stronger in the setting. You also said that "its not like Illya is that strong", and then mentioned that there are other people in the setting stronger than her. These magi tend to be on the very upper tier of magi. My understanding of this was that you were comparing her to those stronger magi, who are the same ones that would be considered "the best of the best", by virtue of being intense bullshit like Touko or by wielding True Magic. Is that wrong?
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Perhaps I'm making an assumption, but I'm assuming that there are people inbetween Illya and bullshit like Touko.

Something like:

Touko ect bullshit

-------Lots of other people----

Illya.
 
BrokenAscendent said:
Perhaps I'm making an assumption, but I'm assuming that there are people inbetween Illya and bullshit like Touko.

Something like:

Touko ect bullshit

-------Lots of other people----

Illya.
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Eeeh. There's not a huge amount you can do to get more bullshit than "can make almost any magecraft happen by brute forcing with mana and also has a metric fuckton of mana to the point that she can support full power Berserker Herc with Mad Enhancement active". Maybe there are people who are more skilled and effective with magecraft than her, who could beat her in a fight potentially, but in terms of pure raw power and ability I'm pretty sure there's not a whole lot higher than Ilya.
 
Just moving Berserker is a high tier feat :V

A lot of the upper reaches of modern mages is pretty vague. We know a lot about Touko, and Lorelei gets enumerated in some detail.

THAT SAID the actual point originally was that Rin made more sense as an 'OP' character, in as much as it can make sense. Which is kind of true, given that we know that Rin's future is being one of the shining lights of the association.
 
Squirtodyle said:
If your metric for "not that strong" involves comparisons to the literal best of the best, then you run into stuff like saying that Fionn or Beowulf aren't all that strong because people like Gilgamesh could stomp them. Other magi being more absurd doesn't make Ilya any less absurd.
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But Squirt-kun, Fionn and Beowulf are the worst and one of the lower-tier examples in their respective fields :V
 
Concerning Illya powerlevels, Nasu has this to say.
Q: In the anime, there is a fight scene between Rin and Ilya, but are there any mages who could even win against Ilya in a magic fight in the actual 「Fate/stay night」, 「Fate/Zero」, or 「Fate/hollow ataraxia」 games? <ukw>

Nasu: Frankly, she is the top mage in Fuyuki. Still, first-class mages would follow the "since she's a child of nature, just cut her off from the land first" plan, so it's not like she's invincible. Kayneth and Tokiomi may be able to best her in a magic duel.
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"since she's a child of nature, just cut her off from the land first" plan
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What's this referring to? IIRC Homunculi are nature spirits incarnated in human bodies, so would they lose their abilities if they're trapped in a special bounded field such as the one Araya had around that apartment building, or something?
 
Mizu said:
What's this referring to? IIRC Homunculi are nature spirits incarnated in human bodies, so would they lose their abilities if they're trapped in a special bounded field such as the one Araya had around that apartment building, or something?
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Seems to be. It wouldn't have to be as good as Araya's to cut them off, just one on the level of a 'first class magus'. I mean Tokiomi is suppose to be pretty unremarkable as far as talent goes and he's still got a shot.
 
Kayneth is meanwhile a Cao Cao of magic, a bonafide genius.

Now of course there's the bullshit of the lords, Touko and such.

Then there's the Meinster above them.

God Kickshaw is bullshit. I don't want to know what Alice's mom was like.
 
"since she's a child of nature, just cut her off from the land first" plan, so it's not like she's invincible. Kayneth and Tokiomi may be able to best her in a magic duel.."

Well that explains why she has the skill in Fate:GO I guess eh.

As for the 2nd bit, that was what I was trying to mean. Illya is definately super strong, but Someone should be able to take her, at least if they are an adult mage.
 
BrokenAscendent said:
As for the 2nd bit, that was what I was trying to mean. Illya is definately super strong, but Someone should be able to take her, at least if they are an adult mage.
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Kayneth and Tokiomi are certainly far below Ilya in terms of raw power, but they can still beat her through strategy. It's the typical Nasuverse thing of the weak overcoming the strong thanks to circumstance.
 
Squirtodyle said:
Kayneth and Tokiomi are certainly far below Ilya in terms of raw power, but they can still beat her through strategy. It's the typical Nasuverse thing of the weak overcoming the strong thanks to circumstance.
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of course than theres servants to consider...

Could Diarmuids spear that cancels magic (or was it magecraft only?) stop Godhand?

I mean it worked against invisible air which is one of artoria's nps, so I think it would.
 
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