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Traveller, The Rise of Empire: A Naval Design, Procurement and Command Quest

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Night said:
tbh no there aren't because it's been a long time under nuclear limitation treaties, increased precision means the warheads got smaller, and there just aren't enough of them anymore. And that's for the big two. Most nuclear powers have never had enough warheads to actually destroy their enemies utterly, just enough to make one primary enemy really regret their decisions.
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Ok ima say this once and ima move on. Please don't understate nuclear war. People are fucking insane and that piece of paper won't save you.

Magnificate said:
The good thing is that we've now got an entire company of marines on the ground and can patch together enough of them with some shuttles to conduct the extraction. Possible less invasive options would be:
1. Gunboat Diplomacy. Put an Interstellar Monitor in front of their asteroid ship and demand their release.
2. Leverage our aid to them. If S'taxu doesn't maintain humanitarian principles, Home won't continue providing assistance.
3. Quiet agreement. Stage an incident aboard the asteroid ship and announce the deaths of the remaining three Dynasts.
4. Open agreement. Pressure the Dynasts to renouce their throne and all claims to S'taxu. Pressure the Junta to sentence them to exile, unless actual evidence of crimes warranting death was established during trial.
5. Wacky RPG-Player Plan. Find out how bodies are disposed. While interrogating the Dynasts slip them a drug to fake their deaths. Recover the 'bodies' in secret.

EDIT: I forgot to mention it earlier, but it turns out our watchdog crews did make a difference after all. Small one, but still better than nothing.
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Uhh we are not to start a war. That is not what we were told to do, we have no reason to do so. Let's not do that. We either diplomacy this or we just give them what they want. We do not start a war without Home telling us to do so.
 
Is there no fig-leaf of refusing to commit an illegal order that we can hide behind? IRL we have the Geneva Convention, and laws of armed conflict to attempt to mediate the worst excesses of war. Is there any equivalent for Home?
 
Blackangel said:
Uhh we are not to start a war. That is not what we were told to do, we have no reason to do so. Let's not do that. We either diplomacy this or we just give them what they want. We do not start a war without Home telling us to do so.
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Alright, so what is the diplomatic solution to this conundrum? The prime factor that prevents it being a fair trial is revenge. What can we give S'taxu or what can we withold from them to enable a diplomatic solution?
Tallhart said:
Is there no fig-leaf of refusing to commit an illegal order that we can hide behind?
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Wait, an illegal order issued by whom?
 
[] Plan Tradition and the young.
-[X] Write in: Negotiate for the survivors of the Chambrestrong Dynasty to be sent into exile and deliver them to Home. If resistance is too strong settle for saving the 11 year old.
-[X] Write in: ONI (office of naval intelligence).
-[X] Write in: Design and produce a carrier ship which can deploy the X-40 and planetary landing craft. 4 wings of fighters and and one wing of landers.
 
For the future of the Navy vote;

[ ] Conduct a study on continued use of the System Defense Destroyers. Would they be best utilized by refitting the two ships, and if so how? Or would converting them into defense stations be more economical?

As for the crisis, whooo boy this is crappy. Like i get wanting a pound of flesh, but the execution of a dynasty is not something done lightly. And yet in this situation, being the figureheads for a genocide basically means their fate is sealed. About the only thing I could think we could do is negotiate the banishment of the 11 year old (after all, how the heck would he be involved in UNSPEAKABLEs planning and execution) and shift him over to us, Xyri, or even the Aslan to never set foot in S'Taxu again.
 
The Council has made their decision, let them enforce it, etc. The Council can want the Dynasts released all they want, but I am not in favor of starting a shooting war over these three. We can pass on a request to the PMC - maybe even a quiet back channel that tells them we don't honestly give a fuck but we have orders from the council so if they could work with us a little, it'd be great.

Also leaves a sour taste that the Council expects to make S'Taxu pay later but we can deal with that another time.

Next steps include scouting, I think... and finally getting that marine transport and another MMV built. And a orbital fighter station to experiment with space smallcraft designs.
 
I still think grabbing the 11 year old would be a good compromise, or at least a start of one. I already talked about keeping it quiet with the Pmc, have them say the 11 year old was executed in private due to being a child or something along those lines. What we can than do is bring back the 11 year old to Home and then, and only then, if the council wants to get pissy they can just declare a war or seek reparations.

I mean they are already doing that last part but still. I refuse to start a war if Home doesn't tell us to do so, we try our best to compromise where we can, but if that's not enough? The result isn't satisfying for Home? Then alright let's see what they say then. Whatever they say doesn't matter, let's focus on the best result we can get right now.

WallFly said:
and shift him over to us, Xyri, or even the Aslan to never set foot in S'Taxu again.
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We can't. It's either he stays there and gets executed or he comes to us, at home. Sending him somewhere else make's literally no one happy.
 
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[ ] Plan Fair Trial
-[ ] HSWS Intelligence Branch
-[ ] Negotiate in the backchannels. Insist that the long-term stability of S'taxu depends on the trial being fair and impartial. State that Home will accept executions if crimes against humanity can be proven to specific individuals, but in case where it can't be proven Home wants the sentence to be reduced to exile to Home and imprisonment, if applicable. To prevent the Chambrestrongs to be used as figureheads in the future, Home can agree on this leniency being contingent on Chambrestrongs renouncing their throne and claim to S'taxu in public. If the Junta is not certain that guilt can be established during trial, Home can accept faking these Chambrestrongs deaths and handing them over. If the Junta does not agree to either of these compromises, Home shall cut existing ties with S'taxu and will insist on payments for aid rendered.
-[ ] What's next for HSWS:
--[ ] Continue to negotiate with the Aslan. Attempt to hire consultants or mercenaries knowledgeable in carrier operations.
--[ ] Scouting towards and around Hermosa, but do not penetrate the Hermosa system itself. Assign DSSs to the mission and begin with deep space scans.
--[ ] Continue to explore North to increase our knowledge of the systems there. Assign ISs to the mission.
--[ ] Continue to produce the Interstellar Cruiser block IIa and Fast Escort Frigates as possible.
--[ ] Design and produce a landing ship which can deploy FLForces. Two crafts of 3K tonnes, either with a small complement fighter-bombers or with equipped with ortillery.
--[ ] Evaluate the continued use of the System Defense Destroyers. If feasible, refit them as testbed carriers.
--[ ] Begin construction of the trade station between Xyri and Aslan territories.
 
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Blackangel said:
Ok ima say this once and ima move on
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Look, I, personally, am fucked, because the odds are fifty-fifty I'm looking right at the one that hits the local marine base thanks to the orientation of my home and work computers. But you started talking nuclear strategy and it was rawly nonsense in five out of seven cases.

As for the future of the HSWS we've been stumbling face-first into new frontiers and their problems without settling them. A period of consolidation is in order, of dealing with and getting to know the ground we've discovered but not really covered. Especially if we have a bad outcome in S'Taxu.
 
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Rat King said:
We've got ten cruisers at this point, I'd rather build another MMV.
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MMV is sort of a luxury craft at this moment, since our borders with the Aslan are uncertain. We need pure combat vessels and marine landers more than we need multi-roles. That said, the options didn't mention Frigates, more of those would be useful as well to free up the cruisers from patrol duties.
 
Magnificate said:
MMV is sort of a luxury craft at this moment, since our borders with the Aslan are uncertain. We need pure combat vessels and marine landers more than we need multi-roles. That said, the options didn't mention Frigates, more of those would be useful as well to free up the cruisers from patrol duties.
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The MMV is a combat craft. Your insistence that it isn't is really weird.

It has more firepower than an IC.
 
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Night said:
Look, I, personally, am fucked, because the odds are fifty-fifty I'm looking right at the one that hits the local marine base thanks to the orientation of my home and work computers. But you started talking nuclear strategy and it was rawly nonsense in five out of seven cases.
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I'm fucked too for similar reasons, let's just agree to disagree and move on. I'd rather keep the talks to the quest than our depressing reality.
 
Rat King said:
It absolutely is a dedicated combat craft lol, you're just making weird assumptions again.
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Let's compare one MMV against three ICs. That's 6 particle bays rounded out with 8 smaller torpedo barbettes against 12 particle bays total. 16 turrets against 18 turrets total. 6 armor against 8 armor. For combat applications, ICs have the edge. If not for Aslan, I think we could afford to play around with MMVs, but since we've got a neighbour that can't be trusted not to wage war on us and is superion in terms of tech and perhaps numbers the choice seems clear.
 
Magnificate said:
Let's compare one MMV against three ICs. That's 6 particle bays rounded out with 8 smaller torpedo barbettes against 12 particle bays total. 16 turrets against 18 turrets total. 6 armor against 8 armor. For combat applications, ICs have the edge. If not for Aslan, I think we could afford to play around with MMVs, but since we've got a neighbour that can't be trusted not to wage war on us and is superion in terms of tech and perhaps numbers the choice seems clear.
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Each nuclear tipped torpedo is the equivalent of a particle beam hit and and can be fired continuously while the previous rounds track in. Firepower wise the MMV wins out against the three IC.

Also wins out cost wise since it's less expensive than three ICs, too, with better mission capability and a more well-rounded armament system.

Also more pilot efficient at 5 pilots versus 6.
 
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Which post did we make the mmv? I'm trying to go back and compare it to the ic but the media post(That should really be an info post.) doesn't have it listed.
 
I think we should really focus on Frigates over ICs or MMVs currently. We want 1-2 Frigates per IC in the future, in order for the Frigates to be able to do fullfill their Escort role. The Frigate is also our dedicated anti-Aslan design.

I also would expect any hostile Aslan action to be a small raid, rather than a large scale attack. As soon as we have some Frigates built, we should put them on border patrol duty.

That said, I also think we should build a static fighter hangar in Home, and build some Fighter-Bombers for testing before we commit to a carrier design. Maybe it could be time to finally run those wargames we have been discussing?
 
Pinniped said:
I think we should really focus on Frigates over ICs or MMVs currently. We want 1-2 Frigates per IC in the future, in order for the Frigates to be able to do fullfill their Escort role. The Frigate is also our dedicated anti-Aslan design.

I also would expect any hostile Aslan action to be a small raid, rather than a large scale attack. As soon as we have some Frigates built, we should put them on border patrol duty.

That said, I also think we should build a static fighter hangar in Home, and build some Fighter-Bombers for testing before we commit to a carrier design. Maybe it could be time to finally run those wargames we have been discussing?
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If anything, yes - spool up frigate builds, work out the marine transport (as having one would have made any choice to go hot to bust the Dynasts out easier with a full company carrier), consolidate the Service and shake out some kinks while we do more refits etc.

Also a fan of the orbital hangar for practicing carrier ops.
 
Rat King said:
Each nuclear tipped torpedo is the equivalent of a particle beam hit and and can be fired continuously while the previous rounds track in. Firepower wise the MMV wins out against the three IC.
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If the torpedoes hit. Which is not at all a given, since the torpedoes will be fired at long range and the ICs do have point defense. Just look at what happened during the S'Taxu debacle: our IC was surprise attacked by missiles at short range, and mamaged to deflect a substantial part of the two first volleys anyway.
 
Tell the Council to come retrieve the Chamberstrongs themselves if they feel so strongly, we're not starting a war over three minor nobles when a billion people are dead and the survivors are foaming at the mouth for a scapegoat. Especially not starting a war with a major trading partner that holds a significant fraction of our shipbuilding capacity and is currently providing a well-armed buffer between Home and Aslan space. It's not our job to rescue lost causes it's our job to protect Home, and pissing off the entire surviving population of S'Taxu directly harms the security of Home by turning what should be an ally into a restive vassal at best if not an outright enemy.
 
Pinniped said:
If the torpedoes hit. Which is not at all a given, since the torpedoes will be fired at long range and the ICs do have point defense. Just look at what happened during the S'Taxu debacle: our IC was surprise attacked by missiles at short range, and mamaged to deflect a substantial part of the two first volleys anyway.
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Same can be said of any weapons system - in our hypothetical death match the MMV has much better sandcaster armament to degrade P-Beam fire from the ICs.
 
Ok so the Ic does look overall weaker but that's not the argument is it? It's overall firepower when you combine costs and tonnage from our yards.

Well I'd rather pick the mmv over the ic, especially in this hypothetical scenario. Pilots. Now I'm not too worried about getting a massive shortage of pilots, but I still don't want to waste them. They are very similar in fire power, although the MMV has nukes while the Ics technically have more particle cannons.

My main question is how soon are we expecting the Aslan to go to war with us? If we are expecting within the year then yea let's go Ic, we gotta go fast. But if we have more than a year? MMV all the way. Actually I'd perfer we focus on frigates or some kind of carrier class ship. Preferably both.

Edit: I mean when it comes to 3 Ic to 1 mmv. Not 1 to 1.
 
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