KleverKil'Vanya
Ortillery Operator
I'll just say this, if the first response to outside contact is shoot first, we should cripple their ability to shoot at all.
Traveller, The Rise of Empire: A Naval Design, Procurement and Command Quest
- Thread starter 4WheelSword
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I assume that any nominally "static" installation that would exist around an ice ball in a retrograde orbit wasn't built there, so there's probably some way of moving it around. Also, keep in mind that the defences we encountered were around S'Taxu-8, which is the furthest one out; us escaping from S'Taxu-5 is probably because its sheer size prevented a quick response.
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Why the hell do people want to demand half of our shipbuilding capacity to a single logistics vessel that will outmass an entire cruiser squadron?
A 4kt logistics ship is absolutely insane when our largest single deployment on offer right now is 4 1kt cruisers. It's not logistical savvy, it's not being prepared it's saddling ourselves with a massive logistics ship when we're fundamentally a brown water space navy right now.
1600 tons of fuel tankage for 2 jumps of its own and a full refill for a 4 ship cruiser squadron. We can fit that on a 2kt ship most likely. 3kt on the outside.
A 4kt logistics ship is absolutely insane when our largest single deployment on offer right now is 4 1kt cruisers. It's not logistical savvy, it's not being prepared it's saddling ourselves with a massive logistics ship when we're fundamentally a brown water space navy right now.
1600 tons of fuel tankage for 2 jumps of its own and a full refill for a 4 ship cruiser squadron. We can fit that on a 2kt ship most likely. 3kt on the outside.
That's the exact opposite of how Traveller jump drives work afaik so color me skeptical.
Wiadi
Uncompromising Radical Leftist
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Okay, sure, but again, there's still a wide difference between jumping into a prepared defensive position and jumping into a place where the defensive position can (eventually) come to you.
Uh...
???
Yeah, realized that I misread the inequality when Section was explaining it. Jumping far out is likely to "go very badly wrong", according to them, but we still have to jump outside 100D.
Wiadi
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Oh, so there is an outer limit too? @4WheelSword mind clarifying roughly how far out we can go before that starts being a problem?
Huh. That's the opposite of what I understood. Even so, we've scanned the system, we should be able aim for a smaller far-off object and then converge.
We're not building it right now, we're just preparing the design. We might need to build Interstellar Cruisers instead if situation spirals. That said, our current ships were built to be small, so 4K is nothing extravagant. Plus, we're running out of pilots. Plus, it's intended to be able to setup and support outposts, I assume 2K is too small for that.
Yeah, mea culpa, I misunderstood what they were saying. We have to target a body and then jump somewhere between (100 D, large but finite distance].
S'Taxu-8 was the furthest-out thing we know of, and it's where the Heimdall jumped to. We might be able to jump to somewhere in the asteroid belt, or we could jump into a polar orbit around the star, but the former might put us right ontop of an armed outpost and the latter might look like an attempted attack on S'Taxu-4.
4WheelSword
The original N-body Problem
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So, the way it works is that it gets progressively harder to make an accurate jump the further your destination is from a gravity well, to the point that deep space is highly, highly inaccurate. I would have to make up some numbers (which I'm happy to do) because traveller isn't that interested in deep space jumps, but I imagine it's something like at some point there's not enough gravity to be accurate.
👍
The intent is to get somewhere quiet to give us time to assume formation. I'll leave the exact choice to our navigators and tactical officers. I hear that servicemen hate being micromanaged.
4WheelSword
The original N-body Problem
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I did some space maths - Both Home and the Xyri mainworld are inside the 100D limits of their stars. S'Taxu is not.
Coyote Niff
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Speaking only for my own proposal, my thought was that our logistical ships must, for purposes of force projection and C&C, be something akin to a modern naval aircraft carrier, which can support the extended deployment of carrier air wings of 60-90 aircraft, roughly equivalent to our setting's current 4-ship cruiser squadrons. As such, a high-mass logistics craft would act as a mobile repair, rearming, command, and deployment base for our smaller cruisers and destroyers, acting as an expeditionary fleet's "core" in the same manner as a modern air force's air control squadrons, with the caveat that our logistics, fuel, surveillance, and sustainment capabilities are all wrapped into one vessel in a more "naval" style.
Side note: space is not an ocean and we are not a navy! However, it is useful to take terminology from both the air and naval fields as is done in modern spaceflight.
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The big thing our fleet is constrained by is fuel, and the tyranny of the wagon equation meana the bigger the refueling ship the more fuel it itself needs. 10% of the ships
The problem is a ship that can expand the operating range and duration of our warships is some kind of tanker, and the kind of ship that can deploy and setup some kind of infrastructure is some kind of freighter. I think the term logistics ship is just too vague if some people are thinking a tanker, some are thinking a freighter, and some are thinking of the logistical and rearmament capacity of an aircraft carrier to service our cruisers.
A thousand ton ship is a decently sized small time freighter or a small corvette/escort in the context of Traveller- and while the wiki can be a bit awkward I heartedly recommend looking at it a bit to try and get a bit more context.
The problem is a ship that can expand the operating range and duration of our warships is some kind of tanker, and the kind of ship that can deploy and setup some kind of infrastructure is some kind of freighter. I think the term logistics ship is just too vague if some people are thinking a tanker, some are thinking a freighter, and some are thinking of the logistical and rearmament capacity of an aircraft carrier to service our cruisers.
A thousand ton ship is a decently sized small time freighter or a small corvette/escort in the context of Traveller- and while the wiki can be a bit awkward I heartedly recommend looking at it a bit to try and get a bit more context.
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Okay but... it'd need to be at least twice the size it is to actually act as a mobile repair bay for a spaceship beyond holding spare parts if you're imagining it acting as a floating drydock. The most advanced thing it could do is probably cut out damaged armor plating and weld on new ones, you'd need an entire drydock to actually repair, remove or replace subsystems wholesale.
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Wiki on Jump Drives said:
Given fuel seems to be our biggest draw... what exactly does the Jump Drive get from fuel when it's burnt? Just raw energy? In that case... @4WheelSword I wonder if we could... cut out the need for massive amounts of fuel by feeding it controlled nuclear pulses?
Doubloon
Quelle horreur!
I'm genuinely very torn between these options. On one hand, I think it's a big risk to disappoint our benefactors in government by not providing a response, but it also raises my hackles to commit to a fleet action when we're still in a delicate situation with our other neighbors.
I think the main point keeping me from voting for Plan Revisit is the clause about only bringing three cruisers. Why not all we can muster? Is it a one basket line of thinking? I understand that, but we can't do invasion by half measures.
I think the main point keeping me from voting for Plan Revisit is the clause about only bringing three cruisers. Why not all we can muster? Is it a one basket line of thinking? I understand that, but we can't do invasion by half measures.
Wiadi
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I don't think Plan Revisit is actually aiming to invade, though, is the thing.
Speaking of which...
[X] Plan Revisit
I do think on balance I'm swayed by notion that this incident demands some sort of response. Best-case scenario, we clear up an unfortunate misunderstanding; worst-case, we at least get a better sense of an enemy's specific capabilities. Just turtling up seems inadvisable when we're flying this blind.
Doubloon
Quelle horreur!
You're right, but it's a military detachment sent to intimidate and call to account. We're not wanting to get into a battle, but we're going into it knowing from bloody experience it's possible one might be fought. That being said, having had some time to ponder it, I prefer Revisit's response to no response.
[X] Plan Revisit
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2-2: Making Contact
4WheelSword
The original N-body Problem
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What is the Navy's recommendation for how to proceed? Honor the fallen. There is not much we can do for them now, but it is important to make at least an attempt to investigate their deaths so that our servicemen know that the Navy takes care of their own.
- Send three Interstellar Cruisers and HSWS Janus. Squeeze in at least one government representative on board. The mission is ascertain whether the destruction of our ship was a mistake and open communications if able. The ships are to jump in some distance from S'Taxu, converge and burn in formation to the site where the welcome package was dropped. Do not initiate combat. HSWS Janus is to observe and if things go wrong again, jump to Home to bring in the news.
-- Rebuild the lost Interstellar Surveyor.
The Logistic Support Ship should be: around 4,000 tons and it should prioritise supply, fuelling and manufacturing of spares.
The New Fleet - 02y04m00w
Four weeks after the loss of the HSWS Heimdall, six new cruisers enter the fleet properly. Each with a crew of just twenty-five, they slip their moorings and three of the six immediately begin preparations for a 'diplomatic' mission into S'taxu. The other three take up positions around the Home system, wary of any potential attackers responding to our scouting missions with aggression and hostility. At least, it is thought, whoever occupies Xyri will surely understand that we come in peace now.
We also lay down a new ship to replace the Heimdall, the HSWS Culsans. A simple repeat of the surveyor design, yard experience means it will take just 58 weeks to complete, a little more than a year. It will be ready three months before the reinforcements to the Interstellar Cruiser class, in the middle of next year.
Meanwhile, yard space is being prepared for the laying down of a 4,000 ton flotilla support ship, the largest ship built since the construction of the System Defence Destroyers. The intention is to provide an extension to the range and capabilities of a cruiser division without the need for redeveloping a class that is currently (and newly) the mainstay of Home's fleet. A number of design concepts have been laid out for the heads of the Navy to select between:
- Flotilla Manufactory Ship - The most complex of the three recommendations, the FMS would outfit a 4,000 ton capital-grade hull with the shuttles, processors and plants to refine and produce both fuel and spares for a cruiser division of four ships functionally indefinitely. While it would require a massive crew, it would also extend the operational capacity of a division far beyond their onboard fuel and spares. However, it would require access to a gas giant and significant metal-heavy asteroids in order to produce these things, resources that thus far we have only truly identified in S'taxu.
- Flotilla Supply Ship - A far simpler design than the FMS, the FSS supports a cruiser division in its operations by simply moving resources back and forth between and extended position and Home (or other future supply base). With tankage for 1,500 tons of liquid hydrogen fuel and 500 tons of supplies and spares, half of the ships total tonnage is devoted to supplies that will massively extend the capabilities of any single cruiser group.
- Civilian construction yard - The third, and perhaps the cheapest design, would be to extend a partnership to a civilian yard. Purchasing tankers and freighters with UNREP equipment and military drives would be cheaper and likely have reduced crew requirements compared to a true military ship. However they would also be less well protected, less well defended and may take longer to build than something built in a military yard.
Please select one of the above recommendations to move forwards with:
[ ] Flotilla Manufactory Ship
[ ] Flotilla Supply Ship
[ ] Civilian Construction Yard
Military Expeditionary Force - 02y04m02w
Five ships assemble around Home-3, the gas giant that is quickly becoming the main gathering point for Home's jump ships. The SDS Zelus looms over a quartet of far smaller ships, the surveyor Janus and the cruisers Apedemak, Ninurta, and the Sekhmet. All five, flying in formation, set out for the 100 diameter limit of the small gas giant, a four hour transition at 2Gs, tension building aboard each ship. Finally they make their transition point, fan out and chart a course for the distant, massive blue star that sits at the core of S'Taxu.
With a simple message from the Zelus - 'For all the Sons and Daughters of the People, Godspeed' - the four ships slip into jump space and begin their lonely journey to the distant system. The Zelus begins her return journey alone, coming into her station across the swirling clouds of Home-3 to wait, like the rest of the system will be.
It is a long, long wait. Two weeks has never felt so long in the Home system and while most of the citizenry don't know what's happening in the space above them, the halls of power are tense to the point of breaking. Arguments break out over grain distribution, power strategies, the simplest of conversations that would usually be murmured through are instead the sources of outbreaks of verbal violence. Everyone seems to know what's happening, and the lack of updates - an impossibility - is only making things worse.
Finally, after what seems like eons, the HSWS Janus flashes into existence in the Home system without her escorts. She doesn't wait at the Jump Point for the cruisers to arrive, instead making full speed for Home, arriving in dock within a matter of hours. Her Captain descends down to the planets surface to make their report with all possible haste. By the time she arrives, the cruisers begin to flash back into existence, their drives slower than the quick little scout.
Outcome of the interview report on the diplomatic mission to S'Taxu, Captain Nuru commanding HSWS Janus - 02y05m01w
The following details have presented themselves about S'Taxu while the diplomatic mission was ongoing:
- The people of S'Taxu are humans, and they speak a mostly familiar language with some significant differences in verbiage and slang.
- The population of S'Taxu runs into the tens of millions, with a highly developed ground and orbital infrastructure.
- S'Taxu finds itself in the midst of a civil war with four distinct factions.
-- The main point of contact for the ships from Home are the last remaining members of the previously ruling monarchy who still maintain control over the Capital and the High port.
-- Two different democratic factions operate on the planet, one of which is the principal opposition to the nobility and styles itself as the true successors to the leadership.
-- A military junta controls the outer two planets, which have historically been the domain of S'Taxu's navy and marine services, a junta that presents itself as the true rulers of the system. They rarely operate inside the planetoid belt.
- It is considered highly likely that the Junta viewed the arrival of HSWS Heimdall as a threat coming from inside their own system and responded accordingly. The Dukes of S'Taxu have recordings of the engagement, but no information about potential survivors.
- While we have offered no information about the strength of our Navy, the monarchs have already suggested a cooperative alliance that would see the Home Navy conducting operations to crush the military Junta that is supporting the democrats on S'Taxu proper.
- While departing the system, Janus received a beamed transmission from the outer planets that contain a representation from the military council. They offer basing, negotiations and the return of several survivors from the Heimdall should we seek to support them.
We have been made several offers. What is the Navies advice?
[ ] We cannot trust such ill-offered negotiations. S'Taxu is not for us.
[ ] The Junta holds the strength on S'Taxu, and the Heimdall's survivors. Back them.
[ ] The Monarchy should hold sway over their home. Back them.
[ ] This civil war is a distraction - we are likely in a position to overwhelm our enemies and win the system for ourselves.
[ ] Write-in
What is the intention of the mission into Xyri?
[ ] To make contact and little more.
[ ] Write-in
always_confused
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[X] This civil war is a distraction - we are likely in a position to overwhelm our enemies and win the system for ourselves.
ALIEN PIRATES SINK CITIZEN'S SHIP
Let loose the dogs of war!
ALIEN PIRATES SINK CITIZEN'S SHIP
Let loose the dogs of war!
Can it still have the capabilities of Flotilla Manufactory Ship? If yes, that's great. If no, that's unfortunate since I think producing stuff on-site would be the best.
Ah, that makes sense.
Survivors? How the heck were there survivors if we observed no escape pods? Do we have actual proof these guys are alive or just their claims?
In either case, I'm partial to involving ourselves in this civil war. The rewards can be massive. As to which side to support, I'll analyze the post in more detail when I get home and give my recommendation. From what I see, we don't have estimations of each faction naval strength?
[ ] Flotilla Supply Ship
This guy right here is the best for our current situation. Because it is not limited by what system it is in and instead by how much it can haul, it is perfect for pushing out farther and farther without worry of being stranded. If we had faster drives, the Manufactory ship would be best, but we've got the slowest drives possible and 0 knowledge of the surrounding systems.
[ ] The Junta holds the strength on S'Taxu, and the Heimdall's survivors. Back them.
Out of taking sides, this holds the highest for one big reason. They have the Heimdall's wreckage. On top of knowing jump drives are feasible (we got there) they also have access to who knows what sort of scrap survived the destruction of the ship. Which means for now, the junta is the closest to a threat for our Home system. That said;
[ ] Write-in; We will not choose sides in this civil war. This is a matter for the S'Taxu as a people to decide, not outside actors such as ourselves. That said, we will trade food and medicine for any side that asks in order to secure safe passage through the system. We will also offer refuge to any that wish to leave the system for our own.
Civil wars are messy, and at best we can provide about 2 squadrons of ships to any sort of combat action in the S'Taxu system. That's not a lot all things considered. It would be better if we knew the make-ups of the factions fleets and capabilities, but probably not by much.
[ ] To make contact and little more.
This is fine until we learn more.
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This guy right here is the best for our current situation. Because it is not limited by what system it is in and instead by how much it can haul, it is perfect for pushing out farther and farther without worry of being stranded. If we had faster drives, the Manufactory ship would be best, but we've got the slowest drives possible and 0 knowledge of the surrounding systems.
[ ] The Junta holds the strength on S'Taxu, and the Heimdall's survivors. Back them.
Out of taking sides, this holds the highest for one big reason. They have the Heimdall's wreckage. On top of knowing jump drives are feasible (we got there) they also have access to who knows what sort of scrap survived the destruction of the ship. Which means for now, the junta is the closest to a threat for our Home system. That said;
[ ] Write-in; We will not choose sides in this civil war. This is a matter for the S'Taxu as a people to decide, not outside actors such as ourselves. That said, we will trade food and medicine for any side that asks in order to secure safe passage through the system. We will also offer refuge to any that wish to leave the system for our own.
Civil wars are messy, and at best we can provide about 2 squadrons of ships to any sort of combat action in the S'Taxu system. That's not a lot all things considered. It would be better if we knew the make-ups of the factions fleets and capabilities, but probably not by much.
[ ] To make contact and little more.
This is fine until we learn more.
Edit:
While unlikely, there's nothing saying that the ship was disintegrated. It was definitely wrecked, but there could still be areas of the hull that were protected/sealed off. And the crew could be wearing void suits as standard practice for jumping.
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Random Member
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[X] The Monarchy should hold sway over their home. Back them.