[X] OPLAN: Firm Grasp
Traveller, The Rise of Empire: A Naval Design, Procurement and Command Quest
- Thread starter 4WheelSword
- Start date
- Original Art Quest Sci-Fi
0t4n1z3r019
Member of the HAFPTG
- Location
- Philippines
[X] OPLAN: Honest Science, Swear on Me Mum
Well, if the Hermosans want a casus belli, they're definitely doing it wrong, or they'll still have it despite the evidence that we have.
Well, if the Hermosans want a casus belli, they're definitely doing it wrong, or they'll still have it despite the evidence that we have.
Rat King
Izutsumi-pilled
I kinda feel like the ship mysteriously vanishing will give them more of an excuse than just saying "we're salvaging ur ship", but eh. Could go either way.
Also I like the analysis done earlier by @Josiah on hawks and doves, etc., and also think that if the Hermosans felt confident in being able to take us, they probably would have pulled the trigger already.
Also I like the analysis done earlier by @Josiah on hawks and doves, etc., and also think that if the Hermosans felt confident in being able to take us, they probably would have pulled the trigger already.
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Well us recovering their technologies is probably a question of some importance for Hermosans, too. But it still could be interpreted as "we've engaged in a badly thought out brinkmanship and lost a bit for it".
So Hermosans in this regard can either up the ante or take the L. It's in our interest to convince them to take the L. (That's why I added "move the ships from Staging Point to Hemidall" part, for the additional intimidation and security).
It's a difference between "we have nothing to hide, go and inspect your ship, but we are recovering it" and "we do have sometghing to hide", which can be (willfully) misinterpreted as "we've attacked and wrecked your ship and now are destroying the evidence".
of course, the cleanest course of action would be "here is your ship, we are giving it back to you, also the guy who planned your ops sucks" but noone would refuse the free tech possibility 
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- Location
- Somewhere in the stacks
- Pronouns
- She/Her
[X] OPLAN: Firm Grasp
Rat King
Izutsumi-pilled
It's a difference between "we have nothing to hide, go and inspect your ship, but we are recovering it" and "we do have sometghing to hide", which can be (willfully) misinterpreted as "we've attacked and wrecked your ship and now are destroying the evidence".
of course, the cleanest course of action would be "here is your ship, we are giving it back to you, also the guy who planned your ops sucks" but noone would refuse the free tech possibility
look if someone wants to accidentally crash their advanced jet fighter mostly intact while intruding our airspace, i am gonna take it apart and see what makes it tick.
I'll revise to include "increase security" to bring the reserve in, although it's a question of what we want to commit and how threatening we want to look. Balancing act.
They oculd also say "fuck it we ball" and try to destroy the ship and kill their own crew, but that feels very out there.
I still don't think the fleet at Staging Point is well placed as a defender (it can't receive notice of an attack in time to do anything about it), and I think it has dubious value as a deterrence because the Hermosans don't know it exists (they can't see it while it's in deep space and we haven't articulated a retaliation policy), all they know is that we have more ships somewhere, and the fleet could serve that role sitting on unscouted Cassalon and the crews could get R+R.
I think we should dismiss the staging point fleet to reserves and garrisons. If we think we're going to imminently attack Hermosa then it can go back to lurking in deep space.
I think we should dismiss the staging point fleet to reserves and garrisons. If we think we're going to imminently attack Hermosa then it can go back to lurking in deep space.
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I think the idea at a time was that we would maybe want to attack Equus or Sinone, so we kinda kept the other fleet around but also not visible to Hermosans - so they would not deduct that we are going to invade and drop a hammer on us first.
At the time, at least some people were arguing that the fleet in Staging Point would be defensive, not a threat.
We can choose when to attack Hermosa, so I don't think we need to keep the fleet at high alert and sitting in deep space if we're not going to be attacking. The ships would be better used in garrisons, courier duty, wargames or refit time.
Also: I edited my post while you were replying, apparently.
It's been a while since I've posted, but I've kept up with the story. Giving the Glaive back to the Hermosans would be a major mistake. They have been expanding their borders, and we know they are totalitarian. We will eventually be their target. We are not prepared to fight them, but that is why it is so important to have access to the Glaive. We have seen that it is their main combat ship, and any information we can gain from it is worth the heightening of tensions.
I don't suppose anyone has PDFs of the rules books we're using that they'd be willing to stick on a Google drive or something, for the rest of us to use/download copies of? (Edit: or set it to no downloads if that's not a thing you're allowed to do, I don't know what license they put on their PDFs; I think it should be fine, there's nothing wrong with letting a friend borrow your physical books, but the law doesn't always make sense ). I'd really enjoy getting stuck into the setting, and especially tinkering with the actual nuts-and-bolts of the shipbuilding - even accounting for whatever houserules 4WS is using, or if they'd prefer not to receive specific ship proposals at all* - but forty-three USD for three out of umpteen books that are four editions out of date is... I'll be polite and go with "not a price I'm willing to pay".
*I don't know if the shift from "make specific mech decisions" in To Design to "vote on general direction and let 4WS figure out exact numbers" here is a matter of 'less people know Traveller than BTech' or 'that was unfun/exhausting/just kind of a pain/etc. and I don't want to do it that way this time', or 'I don't want to have to explain all my houserules', or something else entirely, and don't wish to assume.
Edit 2: I have been kindly gifted the Core & High Guard rules. Anyone who has Trillion Credit Squadron would be very welcome to complete the set!
). I'd really enjoy getting stuck into the setting, and especially tinkering with the actual nuts-and-bolts of the shipbuilding - even accounting for whatever houserules 4WS is using, or if they'd prefer not to receive specific ship proposals at all* - but forty-three USD for three out of umpteen books that are four editions out of date is... I'll be polite and go with "not a price I'm willing to pay".*I don't know if the shift from "make specific mech decisions" in To Design to "vote on general direction and let 4WS figure out exact numbers" here is a matter of 'less people know Traveller than BTech' or 'that was unfun/exhausting/just kind of a pain/etc. and I don't want to do it that way this time', or 'I don't want to have to explain all my houserules', or something else entirely, and don't wish to assume.
Edit 2: I have been kindly gifted the Core & High Guard rules. Anyone who has Trillion Credit Squadron would be very welcome to complete the set!
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[X] OPLAN: Honest Science, Swear on Me Mum
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] OPLAN: Firm Grasp
I don't see the need for any of these paper thin excuses. They've been sending spy planes over and one of thems crashed in our territory, we can do whatever we want with it and are frankly being very generous in even returning their crew instead of keeping them detained as spies.
I don't see the need for any of these paper thin excuses. They've been sending spy planes over and one of thems crashed in our territory, we can do whatever we want with it and are frankly being very generous in even returning their crew instead of keeping them detained as spies.
- Location
- Here, there, everywhere.
We can stop spending time on doing recon flights trying to gauge their territory without starting a war.
10-6: Are you funnin' me, son?
4WheelSword
The original N-body Problem
- Pronouns
- It/She/They
What does the HSWS want done with the Glaive? Keep the Glaive under guard in Heimdall until the Hermosans send a ship to retrieve their crew and so they can visually verify we didn't start shooting. Go over it with a fine tooth comb to examine sensor logs, communications, the black box, etc. Then ship it to Home aboard a Modular Conveyor - we can learn from it. Increase security in Heimdall until we know the Hermosans aren't about to launch a retaliatory raid.
The MIC is desperate to interrogate the crew, of course. What does Home hope to learn? The extent of Hermosan systems and how tight their grip is. The reason for Hermosan flights and their disinterest in communications.
What about Hermosa? We should invite Hermosa to come and inspect their ship to show we did not fire upon it, as well as retrieve those crew who wish to return home.
Available Budget: 288.435MCr
Current Dockyard Usage: 18,000Dtons
Are you funnin' me, son?
Excerpts from Interviews with crew of the HCP Glaive:
Interviewer - Can you confirm your name, rank and branch for the recording please.
Subject - Frigate Lieutenant Fortunata Finnin, number 491-878-05, Hermosan Spacy.
- What was your position aboard the Glaive?
- I'm the ranking drive officer, though my education is in gravitics not in jump space dynamics.
- So you're in charge of the drive sections, the plant, the fuel lines?
- Mostly. Another officer is in charge of the plant but on the Glaive she was junior to me, so I technically had overall command.
- How much do you know about why you were in Heimdall?
- I knew we were scouting. Our briefings didn't exactly go in depth about the moral philosophy behind our deployment. I knew we weren't planning on shooting anyone, that's for sure.
- And what happened before the... accident? Note for the record that the subject has shrugged in response.
- Heh, sorry. We were ordered to action stations and the command came down to prep the drives to jump. We don't do any of the astrogating, we charge the capacitors and prep the fuel lines and prep to push the big red button. So all I know is that we're running hot with the drives red-lining, the ship intercom orders brace for collission then half a minute later we get the co-ords and make to hit the button. Lost some time after that. Your docs said I might have got a concussion? Tell you what, I'm not particularly enthused about the idea of going through a misjump again.
Interviewer - Please restate your name, rank and branch for the recording.
Subject - Command Lieutenant Misericordia Bosque, number 422-517-05, Hermosan Spacy.
- And your position on the Glaive.
- I was a bridge officer; I'm given to understand that I am the highest ranking survivor of whatever you did to our ship.
- You have been informed that the accident was a consequence of physics, not any action.
- Yes, by you.
- Very well. Your position on the command deck would have let you understand a great deal of what was happening on or around the ship. Why did none of your vessels attempt or agree to communication while intruding in Heimdall?
- Why would we bother talking to the people we're watching. We didn't expect anyone to be stupid enough to try and board us.
- Why were you watching our deployments in Heimdall?
- Are you joking? No? An unknown potentially hostile force is gathering on our border and you ask 'why' we were interested. We wanted to keep an eye on you and make sure you weren't about to jump a flight of nukes down our throats.
- A diplomatic meeting was attempted.
- Yeah? Seems like it worked really well. Can we be done?
- We have several more questions-
- Command Leiutenant Bosque, Hermosan Spacy.
- Interview terminated.
Interviewer - I'm afraid we haven't met anyone of your species before, though you are not the first non-human sapient we've met. You'll have to excuse me any issues arising from that. Please state your name, rank, branch and species for the recording.
Subject - I am Claine Hudaharjaz Sentiment of Dawn, Father of my pack, First of my family, Mourning a lost cub, Vargr, Petty Officer of the Hermosan Spaaaaaaacy.
- Note for the record, Petty Officer...
- Sentiiiiiiment.
- Petty Officer Sentiment is a member of a previously unmet species called 'Vargr', who appear to be bipedal canids. Now, Mr Sentiment, you were a gun captain aboard the Glaive.
- Yes. I was responsible for a battery of forty-eight tubes as well as the magazine that fed them. My pack had positions elsewhere on theeeeeeeee ship.
- Why are you doing that?
- Doiiiiing what?
- Extending a vowel sound at the end of the sentence? Note for the record, Mr Sentiment is smiling very broadly but apparently will not answer. Are you the only examples of your kind in Hermosan space?
- No, there is a settlement of Vargr in a system on the far side of Hermosa itself. We are technically collective aligned with the Hermosans, but in reality it is a much more fluctuating experience. I decided our pack should serve a term or two with the Spacy, in order to enjoy some of the benefits of citizeeeeeeeeenship.
- How many of your pack are in service?
- Five. All aboard the Glaive. Now we are four, and my youngest adult cub is dead.
From these interrogations and others, we understand that Hermosa as an empire consists of four systems - Hermosa, Sinone, Equus and an unnamed Vargr occupied system in sector '-04 04' - which are tied to Hermosa proper though force, diplomacy or direct political and economic links. Equus is the most recent addition, but those crew members from Sinone simply consider themselves Hermosan.
In addition, every interviewee seems certain that the reason for these scouting flights was defensive in nature, not offensive. Many view Home personnel as the enemy, but bear no serious ill-will once fed and watered. Most blame us for the loss of the Glaive and the casualties aboard, which has led to several incidents of hostility and aggression, but no serious damage of injury.
By Jove, We are going to own this thing!
A courier arrives hot on the heels of the one informing Home of the capture of the Glaive - hot on the heels being around a week later, of course - with more news from distant Heimdall. One of the massive 8,000 dton Hermosan Motherships has arrived in Heimdall along with a quarter of Combat Platforms and a pair of previously unseen and unidentified ships that are studded with antennae and dishes. They are demanding the following:
- The return of their surviving crew.
- Reparations for the dead and the damage.
- The return of the HCP Glaive in the condition it was found in as the ship was never formally surrendered.
They are also very clear that if anyone attempts to move the Glaive from its current location docked to the Heimdall anchorage for any reason other then to return it to Hermosan control, they will have no choice but to activate scuttling systems aboard or destroy it with missile fire to deny an asset to Home.
What is Homes response?
[ ] Let them. We are not starting a shooting war over a hulk.
[ ] We cannot give them the Glaive, it is an intelligence boon.
[ ] Order the Staging Point reserve to Heimdall and order the Hermosans out of our space.
[ ] Other - write in.
Please present votes as plans. Voting opens at
[ ] demand them to vacacte Equus and to return that system to the previous government
- The return of their surviving crew.
Sure.
- Reparations for the dead and the damage.
It's primarily Hermosan fault and they have to accept this. We agree that we did not foresee the misjump, and propose 50/50 compensation to the families of deceased, on behalf of Home's and Hermosan governments. This should not be understood as our reparations to Hermosan Navy.
- The return of the HCP Glaive in the condition it was found in as the ship was never formally surrendered.
I really-really don't want to.
- The return of their surviving crew.
Sure.
- Reparations for the dead and the damage.
It's primarily Hermosan fault and they have to accept this. We agree that we did not foresee the misjump, and propose 50/50 compensation to the families of deceased, on behalf of Home's and Hermosan governments. This should not be understood as our reparations to Hermosan Navy.
- The return of the HCP Glaive in the condition it was found in as the ship was never formally surrendered.
I really-really don't want to.
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If we decide to attempt to keep the Glaive, which I think we should do, we should attempt to jam any signals around it to prevent those scuttling systems from being activated.
@4WheelSword what do we know about the Combat Platforms, I am assuming they are different than the Glaive class?
@4WheelSword what do we know about the Combat Platforms, I am assuming they are different than the Glaive class?
4WheelSword
The original N-body Problem
- Pronouns
- It/She/They
They are not.
Cool, so a Mothership, four Glaives, and two EWAR/Intelligence ships. So we might not be able to get the captured Glaive out of Heimdall, but we can certainly make them use ordinance to destroy it.
For future pd ships, is flak a thing? Or are there other systems that can deal damage to groups of missiles in traveller?
Point-defence systems, inclliding basic turretet lasers in our quest (I think?), frag missiles (kill incoming missiles 1-to-1 exchange), ewar countermeasures (not sure how effective this is on our tech level).