[X] A walk through the dreams of the glittering city, glutted on celebration.
Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)
- Thread starter yrsillar
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- Original Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
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- Washington
It still serves as a very good counterargument to "she's more uncomfortable than receptive." If one time in four she's the one going back to that hot stove to get burned, maybe, just maybe, it's possible she doesn't actually have that much of a problem with the other three fourths of the time.
- Location
- United States of America
Yeah so as an avid romance connoisseur and filthy dirty shipper I do have my own opinions on things and some of the arguments in the thread .
Firstly obviously I'm heavy into t get meng Dan camp but I'm not so dismissive of the xuan ship, while some of dorms arguments are true it forgets that there are different types of romances / paths out there . In this case it's very much the friendship to lovers path that xuan shi is following if we're looking at tropes . A strong friendship as the foundation that later possibly blooms into something more.
Meng dans romance route is more passionate , and exciting. Something new and fun . Not silly enough for teenage romcom , but def giving teenage love / first crush vibes. It's hard to accurately put a label here becuase frankly while I love meng dans dialog we don't know him too well on a deeper level . He hasn't really been around (on screen) that long . And in story lq has only known him for so many months too . So it's love category is fairly broad .
The argument that lq is uncomfy with his flirting is dumb and feels like a cheap shot to make meng Dan a "creep" out of some insecurity that xuan shis romance dialog hasn't moved into that direction yet . (I've seen this argument about meng Dan being a creep before rise up )
Ling qi has historically been the one to initiate the flirting and been the more "forward " party in their dialogs . Any uncomfortable moments was meng Dan returning her energy and her understandably liking those feelings but being uncomfy that she has them in the first place as no other guy has been able to elicit those reactions yet .
onto dialog I also think it's a mistake to point towards lqs new acceptance of romance or her fast track flirting and crush on meng Dan as proof that things are going to suddenly change for xuan shi . His romance route is different , the friendship to lovers route is often a slow building patient route (heh turtle ) and readers might find themselves frustrated at times becuase of it . But they need to understand who xuan shi is as a character isnt going to change , his dialog or his actions . It's a slow burn . The romance is gonna take time to develop becuase it's the opposite of the romance routes in that it focuses on building trust and friendship first . Whether that pans out here is ..well… we can see .
Firstly obviously I'm heavy into t get meng Dan camp but I'm not so dismissive of the xuan ship, while some of dorms arguments are true it forgets that there are different types of romances / paths out there . In this case it's very much the friendship to lovers path that xuan shi is following if we're looking at tropes . A strong friendship as the foundation that later possibly blooms into something more.
Meng dans romance route is more passionate , and exciting. Something new and fun . Not silly enough for teenage romcom , but def giving teenage love / first crush vibes. It's hard to accurately put a label here becuase frankly while I love meng dans dialog we don't know him too well on a deeper level . He hasn't really been around (on screen) that long . And in story lq has only known him for so many months too . So it's love category is fairly broad .
The argument that lq is uncomfy with his flirting is dumb and feels like a cheap shot to make meng Dan a "creep" out of some insecurity that xuan shis romance dialog hasn't moved into that direction yet . (I've seen this argument about meng Dan being a creep before rise up )
Ling qi has historically been the one to initiate the flirting and been the more "forward " party in their dialogs . Any uncomfortable moments was meng Dan returning her energy and her understandably liking those feelings but being uncomfy that she has them in the first place as no other guy has been able to elicit those reactions yet .
onto dialog I also think it's a mistake to point towards lqs new acceptance of romance or her fast track flirting and crush on meng Dan as proof that things are going to suddenly change for xuan shi . His romance route is different , the friendship to lovers route is often a slow building patient route (heh turtle ) and readers might find themselves frustrated at times becuase of it . But they need to understand who xuan shi is as a character isnt going to change , his dialog or his actions . It's a slow burn . The romance is gonna take time to develop becuase it's the opposite of the romance routes in that it focuses on building trust and friendship first . Whether that pans out here is ..well… we can see .
- Pronouns
- He/Him
My biggest issue with Meng Dan is that I'm not at all sure he actually loves Ling Qi. Attracted to her? Absolutely. Interested in her as a historian? 100% yes. But he's not from a family culture where familial or romantic love is expected or rewarded, and the whole idea is kind of alien to him, and he hasn't shown any super strong evidence he's actually internalized a much deeper emotional relationship than friendship being involved here, and I think Ling Qi absolutely wants a conventional romance in that sense.
Now, that could absolutely change, but just as Xuan Shi and Ling Qi's relationship would need to grow more passionate, particularly on her end, to be viable, it seems to me that Meng Dan's relationship with her would need to achieve actual deep connections between the two that are currently lacking. They need actual trust on a deep level and love to go with the passion.
Which is why I generally prefer Xuan Shi at the moment, as much as anything. If nothing changes, Ling Qi will never have Meng Dan's love, only his interest, and I think she already has Xuan Shi's love. But, of course, I do expect that to change. For both of them, in terms of the relationships evolving to fill in those lacks. And likely for Bao Qian as well, who seems to have neither of their advantages, if he can find a way to actually spend time with her.
Now, that could absolutely change, but just as Xuan Shi and Ling Qi's relationship would need to grow more passionate, particularly on her end, to be viable, it seems to me that Meng Dan's relationship with her would need to achieve actual deep connections between the two that are currently lacking. They need actual trust on a deep level and love to go with the passion.
Which is why I generally prefer Xuan Shi at the moment, as much as anything. If nothing changes, Ling Qi will never have Meng Dan's love, only his interest, and I think she already has Xuan Shi's love. But, of course, I do expect that to change. For both of them, in terms of the relationships evolving to fill in those lacks. And likely for Bao Qian as well, who seems to have neither of their advantages, if he can find a way to actually spend time with her.
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- Location
- United States of America
I'll give you the family thing as he does have the typical noble idea instilled into him about family that would need to be talked about with qi but the love /romance thing is absolutely wrong .
Do remember one of their anscestors literally wrote a love poem with the blood from his beating heart to the woman he loved , and it's been a legend passed on to them for generations . They fully understand romance .
I wouldn't say he's in love yet , he's even said it himself , they need to actually get to know eachother more but I do think he has stronger romantic feelings .
With xuan shi there's this underline that lq is kinda the rebound girl he went to after his first crush failed , and then developed feelings after that which are they romantic , or was he just lonely ? Again I fully think he has true feelings now , but the start of that foundation was more his lonely /family issues rather than attraction / some deep love for lq too . I don't think xuan shi loves lq either right now , they frankly have a strong friendship but lq hasn't historically really engaged with him either or hung out too often if you go back and look at actual spent time together over the last two years since she arrived at the argent peak .
Not sure that is true on the romantic part. The Meng´s core romance story is how one of their Patriarchs encountered a person in the wilderness that would later become one of the ES Grand mistresses of Music, and fell so in love that he spent enormous amounts of time and effort romancing the woman. Up to writing poetry out of his own Heartsblood (Six mentioned that the Dreaming Moon still got that poem). So like, the Meng very much got a romantic cultural touch stone. So it is not something unknown to him but rather something you put your all into achieving,
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I'm not convinced that a foundational myth that most members of the Meng clearly don't live up to is enough to give him the cultural grounding in question in terms of actual experience. Especially one that is very focused on the courtship and not the relationship thereafter...Meng Dan's courtship is just fine, it's the follow-through he still needs to work on at this point. The 'will he make a good relationship long term' part.
Which is not to say it's not a good start, my whole point was that I think, as things progress, he might easily fall in love with her...it's purely that he's not there yet and might need to relieve himself of some baggage to get there. Much as Xuan Shi is not there yet in terms of getting Ling Qi to actually look at him with passion and attraction. Both are incomplete relationships at the moment, just in different ways.
Which is not to say it's not a good start, my whole point was that I think, as things progress, he might easily fall in love with her...it's purely that he's not there yet and might need to relieve himself of some baggage to get there. Much as Xuan Shi is not there yet in terms of getting Ling Qi to actually look at him with passion and attraction. Both are incomplete relationships at the moment, just in different ways.
Honestly I would like more if she understood he lost his chance with LQ and start pushing him and Nuan together. I think they would actually work well as a couple. And since theres a Ducal clan runing for LQ it wouldnt be a great loss of face if they can get the only other green the ling have at the moment.
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- Location
- United States of America
Nuan doesn't have the same things going for her that qi does that would allow a count lv scion to marry into the ling rather than the opposite way .
Remember lq isn't just getting count lv suits cus she's a cool gal , it's her position next to crx , her talent , zhengui and a mix of other achievements .
Yu nuan is cool and i love her but she isn't count + marrying into the ling level of special . If she married into the Bao sure it could work even if she would be negotiating from a lower position , but we really can't afford to lose our few members we actually have right now . Also we kinda don't want the Bao involved in our trade stuff or getting a stronghold on it before we even set it up with our position between the white sky and the empire .
Edit: also if she has kids with her spirit tengu we could get winged ling members or members with cool glass skin or other stormy features .
- Location
- Finland
The Ling may be a newly formed Baron clan, but the smarter ones know they are already being groomed for viscount level position because CRX is not going to stay at Snowblossom for good.
And once the Mattriarch does marry a count/ducal scion, well, nobody is going to assume they will somehow fizzle out, especially with the Mattriarch being a personal close retainer of the ducal heir.
Throwing a promising, but not that important, scion at the second highest member of the clan would be, unlikely, but not impossible.
Especially not if this will end up taking enough time for Ling Nuan to hit Cyan as well, and with Bao Qian being a bit of a maverick among the Bao by trying to do his own thing, and already closely tied to the Ling clan through economic interests.
And once the Mattriarch does marry a count/ducal scion, well, nobody is going to assume they will somehow fizzle out, especially with the Mattriarch being a personal close retainer of the ducal heir.
Throwing a promising, but not that important, scion at the second highest member of the clan would be, unlikely, but not impossible.
Especially not if this will end up taking enough time for Ling Nuan to hit Cyan as well, and with Bao Qian being a bit of a maverick among the Bao by trying to do his own thing, and already closely tied to the Ling clan through economic interests.
- Location
- Beneath a pile of leaves
To be clear, I don't think Meng Dan is a creep, nor was it my intention to make him sound like one. I just wanted to point out that, to me, there were quite a few scenes where she seemed to being getting actually uncomfortable with the compliments/flirting and he kept going. On one hand it's nice that he's challenging her poor view of herself, but on the other I think that might possibly lead to some problems down the line where he goes a too fast and she slams her walls back into place out of fear.
Ling Qi has initiated, yes. But she still has issues around this subject and, again to me, it kind of feels like she's ignoring her discomfort in order to "power through" her trauma and prove to herself that she's completely healed. It wouldn't be the first time she's done something similar
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Like its still no certainty of course, but its at the very least a reasonble eventuallity. And fostering early relations with what may be a count clan is a good idea
Tbh It would be a fairly good bet tbat the Ling will eventually become a count/marquis clan themselves, given enough time. It aligns well with the political interests of the Cai, withe the land claims of the wall there are more than enpugh lands, and setting them up as the clan mainly responsible for the WS border makes a lot of sense. Cultivation wise even if LQ doesnt reach Prism, between the drive and talent of the Ling there is likely to be one within a few generations at most. And the Ling may eventually have one of the most powerful spirit lords of the southern emeralds seas with Zhengui.
Like its still no certainty of course, but its at the very least a reasonble eventuallity. And fostering early relations with what may be a count clan is a good idea
- Location
- the internet
I'm not sure we can use the term "love" here when everyone courting LQ is as young as she is and none of them have experienced love before. Its more like a crush. I mean, both Xuan Shi and Meng Dan probably have a pretty idealized version of her in their heads. They don't know her well enough yet and she doesn't know either of them well enough yet.
...I guess I'm just quibbling over wording. but to say that Meng Dan "doesn't really love her" ,well both he and Xuan Shi and probably Bao Qian probably feel as strongly as they naturally can for guys their age. They don't love her despite all her flaws and have learned to respect all her boundaries. Not that type of love.
[X] A walk through the outer twigs, the hanging gardens at the district's edge.
- Location
- The Space Between
[X] A walk through the dreams of the glittering city, glutted on celebration.
Now me? I still don't think Meng Dan has really grappled with the sacrifices involved in marriage to us in the same way Xuan Shi and Bao Qian have. Now that might be because he won't have to sacrifice his own dreams or path to do so, but I doubt it. Consider that he's bonded to a spirit of Hidden Moon, and the way that Hidden Moon attempts to stop humans from cultivating the humanity out of themselves. The secret and knowledge/consequences which are the most obviously dire for his future are the Arch Heresy that Ling Qi is involved in.
When he says here that he'd be joining our clan I don't know how much he really grasps he'll become estranged/alienated from the Meng as further heresy from Ling Qi cuts into the Meng deeper and deeper. For someone that actually cares about his roots and familial connection, does he think that those won't be terribly affected by marrying Ling Qi?
Because I'm pretty sure our path will come into dire conflict with the large dream/nightmare that's so important to the Meng. There's a difference between being part of the retinue that's ended up in conflict with the foundations of the primary religion, much of the Ways based on that philosophy, and the large and integrated Dream Spirit that has been the backbone of the spiritual ecosystem of the Meng for ????? millennia, and being married to the primary Arch Heretic and a member of her clan.
The three parts of Hidden Moon's knowledge that most weighed down Jiao were the knowledge that Emperor An was no longer human when he reached White, the knowledge that his Ascension would end in waterfalls of blood pouring from the peaks, and the knowing Xin his beloved wife. Knowing that the Empire wasn't uniquely virtuous, or founded in virtue, also didn't help things.
TL;DR I think marriage to Ling Qi would provide Meng Dan with many weights to his cultivation, even more than being part of CRX's retinue will provide on their own. I don't think he's grappled with how heavy those weights are going to be, or at least how heavy they look like they're gonna get with our OOC knowledge
Now me? I still don't think Meng Dan has really grappled with the sacrifices involved in marriage to us in the same way Xuan Shi and Bao Qian have. Now that might be because he won't have to sacrifice his own dreams or path to do so, but I doubt it. Consider that he's bonded to a spirit of Hidden Moon, and the way that Hidden Moon attempts to stop humans from cultivating the humanity out of themselves. The secret and knowledge/consequences which are the most obviously dire for his future are the Arch Heresy that Ling Qi is involved in.
When he says here that he'd be joining our clan I don't know how much he really grasps he'll become estranged/alienated from the Meng as further heresy from Ling Qi cuts into the Meng deeper and deeper. For someone that actually cares about his roots and familial connection, does he think that those won't be terribly affected by marrying Ling Qi?
Because I'm pretty sure our path will come into dire conflict with the large dream/nightmare that's so important to the Meng. There's a difference between being part of the retinue that's ended up in conflict with the foundations of the primary religion, much of the Ways based on that philosophy, and the large and integrated Dream Spirit that has been the backbone of the spiritual ecosystem of the Meng for ????? millennia, and being married to the primary Arch Heretic and a member of her clan.
The three parts of Hidden Moon's knowledge that most weighed down Jiao were the knowledge that Emperor An was no longer human when he reached White, the knowledge that his Ascension would end in waterfalls of blood pouring from the peaks, and the knowing Xin his beloved wife. Knowing that the Empire wasn't uniquely virtuous, or founded in virtue, also didn't help things.
TL;DR I think marriage to Ling Qi would provide Meng Dan with many weights to his cultivation, even more than being part of CRX's retinue will provide on their own. I don't think he's grappled with how heavy those weights are going to be, or at least how heavy they look like they're gonna get with our OOC knowledge
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[X] A walk through the outer twigs, the hanging gardens at the district's edge.
ClawClawBite
Mad Engineering!
- Location
- Seattle, WA
[X] A walk through the outer twigs, the hanging gardens at the district's edge.
So, talking about Sixiang romance for a second, it exists in an interesting snarl of tensions. Ling Qi has a set of internal and external, uh imperatives is maybe an okay-ish word, which complicate it.
-Ling Qi wants her marriage to be one of romance, not simply business
-Ling Qi has a responsibility to marry for the good of her clan overall, and its future
-Ling Qi's marriage impacts her liege's political project (least important consideration)
-Ling Qi hasn't, to date, indicated any interest in multiple concurrent romantic partners
-All of Ling Qi's current suitors are genuinely romantically interested in her
None of these is, individually or collectively, a problem, per se. But they do combine in ways with implications on the potential of a romantic relationship with Sixiang.
Marrying Sixiang doesn't have a lot of political or material benefit to the Ling clan. Theoretically, it could do some kind of weird and wild stuff, but as others have pointed out, it's not really in line with our developmental needs considering our chosen tasks ahead of us and our clan by extension. General manpower limitations compound this- mythic spirit-pact-based clan founders presumably had dozens or hundreds of followers (plus, often human marriages). Not our situation.
At the same time, having Sixiang as a side-romance is tricky. It's not unusual for nobles, but Ling Qi's cultureless gutter-trash who doesn't understand The Way Things Are Done. The traditional mono-romantic approach would be to accept the marriage offer of one of our good friends, while smooching Sixiang. This would mean compromising on the "romantic marriage" rule Ling Qi's operating by, which could maybe be feasible except that the boys are crushing on her. Arranging a platonic marriage with somebody who has the hots for Ling Qi, so she can be romantically engaged with her secretary, is just kinda mean. Bad vibes. Off the table.
All that to say, the only real path forwards for a Sixiang romance is Ling Qi coming around to romantically loving more than one person, because she's basically obligated to take a human spouse, and the groundwork for a friendly but non-romantic marriage doesn't exist in the narrative. I'd say that Ling Qi's tendencies currently lean away from this path. But! It's not really an explored path, so it's not ruled out either, strictly speaking. It's very easily an idea I could see coming from Sixiang's perspective- for all that they're deeply possessive of Ling Qi, they also operate on the multibanded overlapping logics of dreams.
We could also just not worry about the long-term and date Sixiang in the meantime, enjoying a relationship which doesn't have looming consequences and trade-offs of the more politically relevant one's. Just. Realistically, Ling Qi isn't going to be inclined to unwind the binds of Want when it comes time to make grownup decisions, with all the natural consequences on that.
-Ling Qi wants her marriage to be one of romance, not simply business
-Ling Qi has a responsibility to marry for the good of her clan overall, and its future
-Ling Qi's marriage impacts her liege's political project (least important consideration)
-Ling Qi hasn't, to date, indicated any interest in multiple concurrent romantic partners
-All of Ling Qi's current suitors are genuinely romantically interested in her
None of these is, individually or collectively, a problem, per se. But they do combine in ways with implications on the potential of a romantic relationship with Sixiang.
Marrying Sixiang doesn't have a lot of political or material benefit to the Ling clan. Theoretically, it could do some kind of weird and wild stuff, but as others have pointed out, it's not really in line with our developmental needs considering our chosen tasks ahead of us and our clan by extension. General manpower limitations compound this- mythic spirit-pact-based clan founders presumably had dozens or hundreds of followers (plus, often human marriages). Not our situation.
At the same time, having Sixiang as a side-romance is tricky. It's not unusual for nobles, but Ling Qi's cultureless gutter-trash who doesn't understand The Way Things Are Done. The traditional mono-romantic approach would be to accept the marriage offer of one of our good friends, while smooching Sixiang. This would mean compromising on the "romantic marriage" rule Ling Qi's operating by, which could maybe be feasible except that the boys are crushing on her. Arranging a platonic marriage with somebody who has the hots for Ling Qi, so she can be romantically engaged with her secretary, is just kinda mean. Bad vibes. Off the table.
All that to say, the only real path forwards for a Sixiang romance is Ling Qi coming around to romantically loving more than one person, because she's basically obligated to take a human spouse, and the groundwork for a friendly but non-romantic marriage doesn't exist in the narrative. I'd say that Ling Qi's tendencies currently lean away from this path. But! It's not really an explored path, so it's not ruled out either, strictly speaking. It's very easily an idea I could see coming from Sixiang's perspective- for all that they're deeply possessive of Ling Qi, they also operate on the multibanded overlapping logics of dreams.
We could also just not worry about the long-term and date Sixiang in the meantime, enjoying a relationship which doesn't have looming consequences and trade-offs of the more politically relevant one's. Just. Realistically, Ling Qi isn't going to be inclined to unwind the binds of Want when it comes time to make grownup decisions, with all the natural consequences on that.
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