TaliesinSkye
Occasional Editor
- Location
- Northeast Ohio, United States
@Voikirium - Am I correct in assuming that anything we put towards the war will be unavailable for patrols, or are those suspended for the time being?
There is no emotion... (A Jedi Order Quest)
- Thread starter Voikirium
- Start date
- Sci-Fi
Voikirium
SV's Estalia Guy
- Location
- Ruritania Illinois
- Pronouns
- He/Him
You are correct.
TaliesinSkye
Occasional Editor
- Location
- Northeast Ohio, United States
Thanks. Also, are you expecting us to do something like:
[] Destroy Hutt Affiliated Physical Infrastructure, such as warehouses, freighters, etc. (Requires investment of Combat)
-Medium (You will hit somewhat hardened targets, like freighters (AT LEAST 30 Combat))
-10 Jedi Guardians (50 Combat)
Meaning we select the intensity we're aiming for, and then assign whoever?
The Englanderish
Schrödinger's Kuudere Kitty Caliph(a)
- Location
- Califat de Chats
So many options. I would like a Hutt Jedi Praxeum...
Voikirium
SV's Estalia Guy
- Location
- Ruritania Illinois
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Yes, basically.
TaliesinSkye
Occasional Editor
- Location
- Northeast Ohio, United States
The big challenge here is we need to essentially do our patrol schedule ahead of time so we can figure our what we can actually afford to devote to war operations. If we gave up on patrols entirely we could afford to do practically everything here, but then who knows what will happen without patrols. It'll negatively effect our income, probably, but other than that I don't know.
As for a Praxeum in Hutt space, I think that would best be described by the phrase 'juicy target'.
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The Englanderish
Schrödinger's Kuudere Kitty Caliph(a)
- Location
- Califat de Chats
Which also means we can lay a trap.
TaliesinSkye
Occasional Editor
- Location
- Northeast Ohio, United States
You need military forces to lay a trap with. We've just got Jedi and rebels. Not really a proper navy.
- Location
- Oregon
Hmm... I'd like it if we create our own infrastructure next turn in regards to an active naval force so we aren't wholly reliant on others in the future. It's a more than sizable investment to be making of course, but I believe it'll pay off in the end.
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TaliesinSkye
Occasional Editor
- Location
- Northeast Ohio, United States
It's not a bad idea, no. I don't think it'll ever compete with nation state navies, and if it did that would make people nervous, but it could be useful for anti-piracy operations and protecting our people.
The Englanderish
Schrödinger's Kuudere Kitty Caliph(a)
- Location
- Califat de Chats
I mean, rebels do in fact conduct military operations. It's kinda how it works.
Strunkriidiisk
THE LEGEND
- Location
- Canada
- Pronouns
- He/Him
There's also the spacelift capacity if ever we need to perform an evacuation, be that for humanitarian reasons or "shit's fucked, get all of our people out of here" reasons.
TaliesinSkye
Occasional Editor
- Location
- Northeast Ohio, United States
You aren't thinking it through. The Hutts identify a stationary target they really want to destroy. They show up with capital ships and escorts. The rebels probably have fighters, q-ships, maybe some corvettes. The element of surprise isn't going to matter when you're outgunned that badly. The praxeum will be destroyed by orbital bombardment and everyone will die.I mean, rebels do in fact conduct military operations. It's kinda how it works.
That's why you put bases outside Hutt space. Without a proper military that can contest what the Hutts have toe to toe the only real protection would be secrecy, and that's not very solid protection.
[] Plan: Passion, Yet Serenity
-[] Physically Aid Rebel Forces (Requires investment of Combat) Councilor Brianna, 8 Guardians, 4 Sentinels (55 Combat)
--Heavy (You will launch raids towards Nar Shaddaa, to help Rebel forces (AT LEAST 45 Combat))
-[] Offer Technical Support to Rebel Ships (Requires investment of Skill) Councilor Bastila Shan, 1 Jedi Master Watchman, 10 Sentinels, 14 Padawans (66 Skill)
--Heavy (You will help redesign the Rebel Fleet from its Hutt Origin (AT LEAST 45 Skill))
-[] Facilitate Hutt Defections (Requires Investment of Diplomacy) Grandmaster Bao-Dur, 4 Consulars, 4 Guardians, 9 Padawans (60 Diplomacy)
--Heavy (You will attempt to convince higher ranking Hutts, such as Vogga who has business interests in selling his fuel, to defect to the Rebels (AT LEAST 45 Diplomacy))
-[] Develop Force Abilities within Syncretic Cults (Requires Investment of Wisdom)) Councilor Mira, Councilor Mical, 2 Consulars, 4 Sentinels, 3 Guardians, 11 Padawans (64 Wisdom)
--Heavy (You will establish a Praxeum proper on a Rebel held world (AT LEAST 45 WISDOM))
So this plan is basically us going all in. Mainly just something to start things off, please tell me the ways it can be improved.
It will leave us with, before recruitment, 20 Guardians, 20 Sentinels, 12 Consulars, 12 Padawans (mainly so everyone not going into direct combat has a Padawan to teach), and 3 Jedi Masters to patrol. I put Bao-Dur on the Defection part because having the Grandmaster of the Jedi Order telling you he'll help you defect will have a lot more weight than anyone else saying so. Bastila is on the Tech support due to her experience with Revan. The rest are so we can show the rebels that we are sending the leaders of the Jedi to aid them. Morale should be vastly improved with that.
-[] Physically Aid Rebel Forces (Requires investment of Combat) Councilor Brianna, 8 Guardians, 4 Sentinels (55 Combat)
--Heavy (You will launch raids towards Nar Shaddaa, to help Rebel forces (AT LEAST 45 Combat))
-[] Offer Technical Support to Rebel Ships (Requires investment of Skill) Councilor Bastila Shan, 1 Jedi Master Watchman, 10 Sentinels, 14 Padawans (66 Skill)
--Heavy (You will help redesign the Rebel Fleet from its Hutt Origin (AT LEAST 45 Skill))
-[] Facilitate Hutt Defections (Requires Investment of Diplomacy) Grandmaster Bao-Dur, 4 Consulars, 4 Guardians, 9 Padawans (60 Diplomacy)
--Heavy (You will attempt to convince higher ranking Hutts, such as Vogga who has business interests in selling his fuel, to defect to the Rebels (AT LEAST 45 Diplomacy))
-[] Develop Force Abilities within Syncretic Cults (Requires Investment of Wisdom)) Councilor Mira, Councilor Mical, 2 Consulars, 4 Sentinels, 3 Guardians, 11 Padawans (64 Wisdom)
--Heavy (You will establish a Praxeum proper on a Rebel held world (AT LEAST 45 WISDOM))
So this plan is basically us going all in. Mainly just something to start things off, please tell me the ways it can be improved.
It will leave us with, before recruitment, 20 Guardians, 20 Sentinels, 12 Consulars, 12 Padawans (mainly so everyone not going into direct combat has a Padawan to teach), and 3 Jedi Masters to patrol. I put Bao-Dur on the Defection part because having the Grandmaster of the Jedi Order telling you he'll help you defect will have a lot more weight than anyone else saying so. Bastila is on the Tech support due to her experience with Revan. The rest are so we can show the rebels that we are sending the leaders of the Jedi to aid them. Morale should be vastly improved with that.
TaliesinSkye
Occasional Editor
- Location
- Northeast Ohio, United States
I'm strongly against getting directly involved in the combat in Hutt space. We'll lose Jedi. Quite possibly a lot of Jedi. We're not the Order of the Clone Wars with 10,000 knights. We can't afford to take significant losses.
That objection aside, I would like to see what you propose for a patrol vote with this much of our strength dedicated to the war effort. This is a huge commitment.
TaliesinSkye
Occasional Editor
- Location
- Northeast Ohio, United States
To help everyone while they do analysis, here is the last patrol plan and how it worked out:
[] Plan Strunkriidiisk
-[] The Core: Councilor Mira, 2 Jedi Consulars, 2 Jedi Sentinels, 1 Jedi Guardian, 6 Padawans (C19, W35, S28, D35, V25, H34) (2 Failures)
-[] The Inner Rim: Grandmaster Bao-Dur, 3 Jedi Consulars, 4 Jedi Sentinels, 3 Jedi Guardians, 8 Padawans (C37, W56, S44, D60, V37, H61)
-[] The Mid-Rim: Consular Atris, 3 Jedi Sentinels, 5 Jedi Guardians, 8 Padawans (C38, W45, S37, D47, V23, H56) (1 Failure)
-[] The Outer Rim: Councilor Atton Rand, 3 Jedi Consulars, 5 Jedi Sentinels, 2 Jedi Guardians, 6 Padawans (C31, W51, S40, D53, V39, H54) (1 Failure)
-[] The Colonies: Councilor Visas Marr, 1 Jedi Consular, 6 Jedi Sentinels, 2 Jedi Guardians, 6 Padawans (C30, W44, S39, D44, V34, H51)
-[] The Expansion Region: Councilor Bastila Shan, 2 Jedi Consulars, 6 Jedi Sentinels, 6 Jedi Guardians, 6 Padawans (C48, W62, S49, D67, V41, H75) (1 Failure, maybe, unclear)
Our numbers have grown since that turn, so that does help somewhat.
[] Plan Strunkriidiisk
-[] The Core: Councilor Mira, 2 Jedi Consulars, 2 Jedi Sentinels, 1 Jedi Guardian, 6 Padawans (C19, W35, S28, D35, V25, H34) (2 Failures)
-[] The Inner Rim: Grandmaster Bao-Dur, 3 Jedi Consulars, 4 Jedi Sentinels, 3 Jedi Guardians, 8 Padawans (C37, W56, S44, D60, V37, H61)
-[] The Mid-Rim: Consular Atris, 3 Jedi Sentinels, 5 Jedi Guardians, 8 Padawans (C38, W45, S37, D47, V23, H56) (1 Failure)
-[] The Outer Rim: Councilor Atton Rand, 3 Jedi Consulars, 5 Jedi Sentinels, 2 Jedi Guardians, 6 Padawans (C31, W51, S40, D53, V39, H54) (1 Failure)
-[] The Colonies: Councilor Visas Marr, 1 Jedi Consular, 6 Jedi Sentinels, 2 Jedi Guardians, 6 Padawans (C30, W44, S39, D44, V34, H51)
-[] The Expansion Region: Councilor Bastila Shan, 2 Jedi Consulars, 6 Jedi Sentinels, 6 Jedi Guardians, 6 Padawans (C48, W62, S49, D67, V41, H75) (1 Failure, maybe, unclear)
Our numbers have grown since that turn, so that does help somewhat.
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The Englanderish
Schrödinger's Kuudere Kitty Caliph(a)
- Location
- Califat de Chats
Ultimately we'll need to get the rebellion forming a proper millitary sooner or later. I'm not saying we need to do this overnight. Or for that matter that the Hutts need be lured to the correct location.
Though to get back to the cults and praxeum matter itself, if we don't fortify them, they will just kinda die. And quickly.
I mean I'm all for vigourous enthusiasm but there is such a thing as too much at once. I'm also not entirely sure we have the total diplomacy for that even disregarding patrol assignments, which I don't think is a hot idea in and of itself. We'll need to strike something of a balance of throwing tangible support in but not breaking out own backs trying to carry everything.
TaliesinSkye
Occasional Editor
- Location
- Northeast Ohio, United States
No realistically doable amount of fortification will stop a hostile fleet from blowing up a base in enemy space alone. A shield generator and some guns (still a big investment by our standards) aren't going to do more than slow an invasion fleet down. It would take massive fortification with Golan stations and the line to fend off a fleet without friendly fleet support, and those are huge investments that take a long time to build and aren't subtle. You can't just do that in hostile territory without anyone noticing, and we don't have the resources anyway.
The Englanderish
Schrödinger's Kuudere Kitty Caliph(a)
- Location
- Califat de Chats
I mean the friggen rebel alliance did it without an entire nascent Jedi order and semi-substantial chunks of republic backing it up. You have to start somewhere, even if the fortification is literally just shoring up the stealth and ability to buy time to evacuate to a new location should the need arise. This is just how it be to be backing emerging underdogs. And part of making them more capable and self-sufficient is to actually put resources into them. If not then there's not a whole lot of point backing them up at all, or even getting involved in Hutt space.
TaliesinSkye
Occasional Editor
- Location
- Northeast Ohio, United States
The Rebel Alliance lost battles when the Imperial Navy actually caught up with them. Do you remember the Battle of Hoth? The Rebel Alliance lost. All they could do was try to delay Imperial forces long enough for some of the rebels to evacuate with critical ships and equipment. And I highly doubt the rebels in Hutt space are as well equipped and organized as the Rebel Alliance was at that point.
Unlike the Rebel Alliance we have safe space we can operate out of without putting our people at additional, unnecessary risk of death by orbital bombardment.
Putting a big fat juicy target of a base in Hutt space when we could operate out of safe Republic space instead would be a massive and obvious strategic blunder. I can't put it any more plainly than that.
TaliesinSkye
Occasional Editor
- Location
- Northeast Ohio, United States
This plan leaves us about as well off for patrols as we were last time around, using roughly as many personnel as we gained from recruitment/promotions. The choice to keep Padawans out of the heavy fighting is deliberate.
Also deliberate is keeping Jedi out of Hutt space. We cannot afford to take significant losses at this time, and Jedi have a nasty habit of falling to the dark side when they go to war. I want to avoid both problems by restricting our help to Republic space. This also has the side benefit of making the Republic safer and not giving the Senate cause to become too unhappy with us.
I'm open to suggestions on tweaks. Note that we pretty much have to decide to go with either a Diplomacy or a Wisdom action; the same characters (primarily Consulars) are good at both. We could divide them up but then that's half as much in two places.
[] Plan Sustainable Commitment
-[X] Destroy Hutt Affiliated Physical Infrastructure, such as warehouses, freighters, etc. (Requires investment of Combat)
-[X] Heavy (You will hit very hardened targets, such as mercenary barracks (AT LEAST 45 Combat))
-[X] 16 Jedi Guardians (80 Combat)
-[X] Strike Hutt Illicit Operations and Operators (Requires investment of Skill)
-[X] Heavy (Moguls, Kajidii, Overbosses (AT LEAST 45 Skill))
-[X] Mira, 1 Watchman, 15 Jedi Sentinels, 17 Padawans) (71 Skill)
-[X] Try and funnel support to the Rebels (Requires Investment of Diplomacy)
-[X] Medium (The Mid-Rim, far, though not far enough, from the Hutts, though considerably wealthier than the nearby (AT LEAST 30 Diplomacy))
-[X] Grandmaster Bao-Dur, 7 Consulars, 8 Padawans (48 Diplomacy)
Also deliberate is keeping Jedi out of Hutt space. We cannot afford to take significant losses at this time, and Jedi have a nasty habit of falling to the dark side when they go to war. I want to avoid both problems by restricting our help to Republic space. This also has the side benefit of making the Republic safer and not giving the Senate cause to become too unhappy with us.
I'm open to suggestions on tweaks. Note that we pretty much have to decide to go with either a Diplomacy or a Wisdom action; the same characters (primarily Consulars) are good at both. We could divide them up but then that's half as much in two places.
[] Plan Sustainable Commitment
-[X] Destroy Hutt Affiliated Physical Infrastructure, such as warehouses, freighters, etc. (Requires investment of Combat)
-[X] Heavy (You will hit very hardened targets, such as mercenary barracks (AT LEAST 45 Combat))
-[X] 16 Jedi Guardians (80 Combat)
-[X] Strike Hutt Illicit Operations and Operators (Requires investment of Skill)
-[X] Heavy (Moguls, Kajidii, Overbosses (AT LEAST 45 Skill))
-[X] Mira, 1 Watchman, 15 Jedi Sentinels, 17 Padawans) (71 Skill)
-[X] Try and funnel support to the Rebels (Requires Investment of Diplomacy)
-[X] Medium (The Mid-Rim, far, though not far enough, from the Hutts, though considerably wealthier than the nearby (AT LEAST 30 Diplomacy))
-[X] Grandmaster Bao-Dur, 7 Consulars, 8 Padawans (48 Diplomacy)
The Englanderish
Schrödinger's Kuudere Kitty Caliph(a)
- Location
- Califat de Chats
Big? Why big? It doesn't have to be comparable to any of our other Praxeums. But if we're going to actually exert any form of influence in Hutt space, we do need people who are prepared to go to them and stay amongst them instead of distant meetups with associated latency times and back and forth. We can only do so much in our own space. We can also take measures to keep such a location secret, as well as ensure there's options available in the event of discovery.
And uh, Hutt space simple isn't the Empire. They have far more finite ship capacity and resources. Even the Empire couldn't just rock up and glass Hoth, the rebels still got away, and then struck with their own fleet at Endor. Yes the Hutt rebels are probably less well equipped, but that's the entire point of investing in them, to equip them better. We can also set up an outpost amongst the cults while simultaneously operating from outside their space.
It's not going to be without risk, but that's what we signed up for when we decided to back a slave uprising. We don't operate removed from the problems of the galaxy, and if we don't nurture these seeds properly then they'll never grow. Having local boots on the ground is one of the oldest necessities of warfare. It doesn't have to be half the damn order, but we do, at the very least, need people there who can personally assist the cults.
The Hutts are not in fact implaccable hunter-seeker terminators who know exactly when and where we set up shop.
TaliesinSkye
Occasional Editor
- Location
- Northeast Ohio, United States
It doesn't matter how physically large it is, that wasn't what I was talking about. Obviously. It would be a priority target the instant it was discovered.
As for the rest of your argument here, you're presuming that the only way to approach this is to exert influence in Hutt space. That isn't the only possible strategy here, or even necessarily the best one, and even if it were the best one, I don't think it would be worth the cost in dead Jedi.
The only thing that matters is that they have more than we and the rebels do. By a lot. We can't win a fair fight with the Hutt forces. That is the bottom line, and I'm really hoping you can understand that, because it's not complicated.
No, many of us explicitly didn't want to get involved in fighting in Hutt space. Please don't assume that everyone agrees with you. We don't need to go into Hutt space, or do any of the other things you insist we 'need' to do.
We can effectively fight the Hutts in Republic space by starving them of resources and getting aid to the rebels. This preserves our strength while getting the job done. Every Jedi that dies now is a Jedi we won't have forever afterward for patrols and other crises.
Argue in good faith or don't argue at all, please. Making absurd characterizations of someone else's position is not good faith, and it makes it look like you don't have any way to argue against what they've actually brought up.
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