And I think I'm fixing on the the fundamental disconnect here, and it's one that I've messed up on my side some too. I'm not trying to make you sympathetic towards the Shiplord society as it exists today. That's not the point. I admit that I quite simply cannot understand the intent of parties to say they're exactly the same as the Gysians at all, but that's not really here nor there.

I will, however, look to remind you of the relatively few Shiplord PoV sections I've written. The Beacon's Light interlude was written at the very end of Practice War, as a follow-up to Define Overdue. And then we have the more recent Unexpected Communiques interlude in the Sidestory tab. If you want some of a Shiplord PoV to work with, that's where I'd start.

Re-reading these interludes could actually be rather helpful given all the current discussion, as it gives a far more on-the-ground Shiplord perspective which some people might find useful. As I hope the next update will be, once I'm able to get it to you all.
Having read those interludes recently, I'm not sure how they help. They just demonstrate how even the rank and file Shiplords seem to just...not reflect on the morality of their actions, ever. It's all about the strategic picture, the potential threats to their galactic dominance, and the potential for the potential of Secrets abuse at some point down the line because they don't have a total penetration of a given race's networks and/or plenty of time to shape a race's culture through brutal tyranny and trauma.

Sure, it's not exactly actively malicious. But that doesn't make them sympathetic in the slightest. Hell, they hardly express any negative feelings about what they're doing or the obvious implications of what they're saying/thinking. The guy at the relay station saw humanity managing to defend itself stunningly well after getting utterly savaged on its First Contact fifty years prior, and then he sees a Regular Fleet get sent in not to check to make sure humanity wasn't doing Secrets abuse via diplomacy/negotiation/testing their warfighting capability for said Secrets abuse but to beat humanity back into submission. When said Regular Fleet gets routed but no evidence of any Secrets abuse is reported, he knows that there's a War Fleet rapidly on the way with a star-killer accompanying it. And once again, he knows that their purpose is nothing short of xenocide. And while he doesn't like it, he doesn't seem particularly bothered by it.

And then he knows it's time for full-scale war, but he still has yet to see any signs of Secrets abuse, meaning that full-scale war is happening not because humanity was threatening the galaxy/universe with Secrets abuse, but because humanity had the temerity to not get utterly brutalized by the Shiplords a second time and then defend themselves against a completely unjustifiable and unprovoked attempt at xenocide. The Shiplords won't make any effort whatsoever at dialog, diplomacy, or anything along those lines. But xenocide? They're totally down for that at any time.

And in the strategic analysis interlude, I noticed the very distinct lack of any notion of measures or possibilities for anything other than war and tyranny. I also could not help but notice that the fears expressed in that analysis had literally nothing to do with Secrets abuse or existential threats to the galaxy, and everything to do with a potential challenge to the Shiplords' galactic dominance.

Every other interaciton with the Shiplords has been an exercise in frustration and bafflement at the sheer double-think they have going on or their tried and true "don't actually answer the fundamental questions, just make some vague non-answer and maybe point them somewhere else to look for the explanation". Even from the Hearthguard, knowing full well who we are and why we want to know, do this. So...yeah, I'm nearly at the point of apathy for their bullshit. The final refuge for an excuse is in Origin, but that fact alone is damning enough. Their entire society, culture, history, and government revolves around commiting to a cycle of mind-boggling atrocity while both insisting about its necessity and lamenting at how badly they wish there was a better way. There should be signs, hints, and people ready to at least allude to their reasoning, especially at their most sacred memorials dedicated to some of their most critical moments in history. And yet...literally nothing. They refuse to talk about it when asked.

How do you even attempt to reach a peaceful solution with a society like that when they seem to adamantly refuse to explain or even hint at why they always choose war, mass murder, tyranny, atrocity, and xenocide? How do you even attempt to reach a peaceful solution with a society that claims that its purpose is to safeguard the galaxy and universe from Secrets abuse when their knee-jerk response to their galactic dominance being challenged by literally everyone else (without any Secrets abuse) is mobilizing for full-scale war that they know will devastate the very thing they claim to be protecting?

If the Sorrows are supposed to mark the milestones of the Shiplords' fall from moral grace, the total lack of anything explaining the Tribute Cycle (or the start of the Tribute Cycle being a Sorrow of its own) is incomprehensible to me.
 
the potential of Secrets abuse at some point down the line because they don't have a total penetration of a given race's networks and/or plenty of time to shape a race's culture through brutal tyranny and trauma.
Fixing on this for a moment: the only reason that they were able to stop the Gysian vacuum collapse system from ending reality was due to having near-total penetration of the race's networks. Where they've ended up as a result of that, the Sphere's example and others isn't a good place, you'll never find me disagreeing with that. But it relates to how this:

And in the strategic analysis interlude, I noticed the very distinct lack of any notion of measures or possibilities for anything other than war and tyranny. I also could not help but notice that the fears expressed in that analysis had literally nothing to do with Secrets abuse or existential threats to the galaxy, and everything to do with a potential challenge to the Shiplords' galactic dominance.
Gets the following answer: a core suspected component of Shiplord policy in this matter is that prevention of Secrets abuse is seen to only be possible if they have the ability to know about and subsequently curtail any attempts to do so with extreme prejudice.

After the Gysian, Hjivin, and the road of smaller failures that were unmarked paving stones on their cultural road to hell, they don't trust any of the younger races. And the only way they can see to make sure no one crosses the line without instituting total galactic xenocide (something they appear extremely unwilling to do, for some reason) is the Tribute System that Contact slowly became.

There will be an option in the next update to ask a Shiplord about that process - something that has been missing for large parts of the Quest due to the votes veering into Witness rather than Remember when it came to each of the Sorrows. Witness gave you each Sorrow, what it was, why it was considered one. But it never gave you anything personal.

I'm hoping to be able to change that a little.
 
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After the Gysian, Hjivin, and the road of smaller failures that were unmarked paving stones on their cultural road to hell, they don't trust any of the younger races. And the only way they can see to make sure no one crosses the line without instituting total galactic xenocide (something they appear extremely unwilling to do, for some reason) is the Tribute System that Contact slowly became.
So far I can follow that string; where I fail to follow further is the 'and if you don't manage to kill at least one ship of the first tribute fleet you'll be erased' logic. I don't understand where that fits into the 'and make sure the race won't ever think about Secret abuse' narrative?
 
My understanding currently is that when you peel back the Shiplord mask of being scary dogmatic alien overlords who hurt people for quasi-religious reasons, you get the smorgasbord of traumatized Shiplords we've actually met, with a mostly comprehensible history and a population that's at least 60% in favor of the Tribute system just because they like the stability and safety its brought them for a long time. But Kicha and Mir both hope that they fundamentally aren't happy with the way the system works and mist Shiplords will flip to a viable alternative.

But, and this is key, there actually is a solid iron core of being scary dogmatic alien overlords who hurt people for quasi-religious reason. If it wasn't part of their personality when they started, it's more than kayfabe now. And that's why they do the incomprehensible pointless violence bit where they smash the extinction button if you can't blow up one of their ships. Because their government and dominant ethnic group are all part of a mystery cult, and the genocide has quietly become a sacrificial act of worship of the Consolat.

Edit: mystery cult as in the greek ones, I mean. Closed, secret religious practices and beliefs that, if you explicitly said them out loud, might well get someone who also respects deities using the same name as yours to get into a raging argument with you.
 
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@Snowfire

It does help to explain things if our consistently choosing to know more about what happened, at the expense of not getting anything personal out of it, has left us in a position of being maxed out along the slider bar towards "know everything the Shiplords did" at the expense of "know what the hell the Shiplords think they're doing."

In fairness, being in that position and then complaining that we don't know what the hell the Shiplords think they're doing is a bit of an own-goal on our part.
 
Fixing on this for a moment: the only reason that they were able to stop the Gysian vacuum collapse system from ending reality was due to having near-total penetration of the race's networks. Where they've ended up as a result of that, the Sphere's example and others isn't a good place, you'll never find me disagreeing with that. But it relates to how this:


Gets the following answer: a core suspected component of Shiplord policy in this matter is that prevention of Secrets abuse is seen to only be possible if they have the ability to know about and subsequently curtail any attempts to do so with extreme prejudice.

After the Gysian, Hjivin, and the road of smaller failures that were unmarked paving stones on their cultural road to hell, they don't trust any of the younger races. And the only way they can see to make sure no one crosses the line without instituting total galactic xenocide (something they appear extremely unwilling to do, for some reason) is the Tribute System that Contact slowly became.
As far as I can tell, you're just repeating what SaltyWaffles said back to him here. Just to add to Simon's point of there being a disconnect between reader and author.
Witness gave you each Sorrow, what it was, why it was considered one. But it never gave you anything personal.

I'm hoping to be able to change that a little.
We got plenty personal at both 2 and 3. That's not the problem. And yet again I don't get how this is supposed to coexist with you not wanting us to see them as sympathetic.

The problem, such as there is just one, seems to be that the development of the Tribute system is mostly orthogonal to the Sorrows. 1 and 2 are "here's where we started getting militant, but we were still worried about Going Too Far and made sure to stick to cultural genocide," 3 is "here's why the Uninvolved freak us out," and 4 is "and after our replacement besties objected to our new ritualized genocide hobby-"

But wait, where did that come from? Wasn't learning where that came from was the point of this story? It's just being glossed over to skip to the time the consequences of the Shiplords' actions made them extra sad.

This can't be fixed by a personal perspective because the perspective, personal or impersonal, is still in the wrong place.

So far I can follow that string; where I fail to follow further is the 'and if you don't manage to kill at least one ship of the first tribute fleet you'll be erased' logic. I don't understand where that fits into the 'and make sure the race won't ever think about Secret abuse' narrative?
It doesn't. We know it doesn't. Snowfire already told us this one:
It's not that. Not at all. The Shiplords have fought and bled and killed for reality's continued existence. I'm not even getting into the Tribute system here, they did that in the War of the Sphere, the war against the Gysians, and many other occasions where they had to pull races back from the brink in their earlier days. Most of the time they succeeded, but over time and failures the high-minded ideals twisted and warped until it today.

I didn't want to come right out and say the reason for this, but I think I need to. Consider the core Shiplord belief that the Consolat gave their lives to create the Secrets. Somewhere along the way in their formalisation of the Tribute system, they started to see what they did in first contact as a twisted form of payment. Our friends died to give reality this, so now you have to prove that you're worthy of their gifts.

Is that right? God no.

But that's trauma for you.
And, by the way, I don't get the "it's not that. Not at all." part. The rest of it is you straightforwardly answering "why do they hate when people can't blow up a Tribute ship" with "because they see not being able to blow up a Tribute ship as spitting on the Consulat's sacrifice." But before giving a clear answer to the question you say that the question is wrong.

Is it just the word "hate" that your object to? Is this part of the whole "they're actually just super bummed that they have to do all this" thing? Because that rings extra hollow for genocides that they don't even have a tragic backstory to justify.
 
@Torgamus - I don't get how the quote about the tribute system fits to the 'blow up at least one ship' part. The tribute system as whole with the genocide and the inflicted trauma as a perverted 'and that's the price you pay for the Secrets you use' explanation - okay. That still leaves me baffled about the 'blow up ship' part because I can't make a connection here. In the literal sense - I really cannot find some explanation where that makes sense to me even if I try to get into the traumatized mindset of the SL.
 
I don't get how the quote about the tribute system fits to the 'blow up at least one ship' part.
It's directly answering a question about the "blow up at least one ship" part. "Prove that you're worthy of their gifts" means blow up at least one ship. If it doesn't fit the "blow up at least one ship" part then we have more serious communication issues than I thought.
 
Thinking on the shiplord ability to hibernate, that might also explain the lack shiplords have in terms of conflict resolution abilities. If you can just sleep your problems away what kind of political system do you build? Humans have had to contend with each other to uphold systems of oppression. What is your political worldview like if those a majority don't like just go to sleep? Perhaps that's how they view going uninvolved.
 
We got plenty personal at both 2 and 3. That's not the problem. And yet again I don't get how this is supposed to coexist with you not wanting us to see them as sympathetic.
It has been stated by multiple people in the course of the last few pages that there's a major difference between talking with a member of the Hearthguard and a member of general Shiplord society. Back at the Fourth Sorrow there was a concerted focus on Witness over Remember that continued all the way until where we are now. Which I respected, because it was what you voted for.

Sure, you got the interaction with Kicha, but a primary issue with her statements are that you have nothing to weigh them against. Nothing apart from her (and then Entara's) word that she could actually deliver something. You've had no common population perspective on what the Sorrows mean, no ability to judge how much of the general Shiplord population agrees with the Tribute System or if they would accept an alternative - and if so, what sort of alternatives would be acceptable.

There are so many questions that have been asked in the last few pages that the Remember option could have answered. But it never got taken. This isn't to put all blame on the playerbase, I'm the QM and I have a responsibility to try and explain things. But there's a limit to how I can do that in-story if the votes continually pull you away from the avenues for me to answer the questions being asked.

Like, for example:
Thinking on the shiplord ability to hibernate, that might also explain the lack shiplords have in terms of conflict resolution abilities. If you can just sleep your problems away what kind of political system do you build? Humans have had to contend with each other to uphold systems of oppression. What is your political worldview like if those a majority don't like just go to sleep? Perhaps that's how they view going uninvolved.
This. This right here. Ask a Shiplord this if you want to know. I don't believe in trap options and I'll tell you if Mandy and co don't think a question is a good idea. But Remember was always flagged as the mechanism to interact with Shiplord society whilst Witness was the mechanism to interact, specifically, with the history of the Sorrows.
 
Hunh…
So we know the history, but we have not engaged with the Shiplords as they are now…
This…
Is most unfortunate, I fear.
I'm suddenly imagining a Hearthgaurd grabbing Mandy to quickly give her a crash course on Shiplord society as it is now because she kept picking Witness instead of Remember, right before she talks to Central Council.
 
Remember was always flagged as the mechanism to interact with Shiplord society
Remember when we offered Kicha the choice to Witness or Remember? And how Remember was very much not that?

That was when you should've realized that you hadn't gotten that information across.

Because it's a very silly way to organize a museum and why would anyone think that's how it works without being directly told.

Why did you set it up that way?

But also, we did? Get a whole Q&A thing at 2? The problem was, there was still one more museum to go, and "how dare you ask me to violate my oaths that I've built my entire psyche on top of by asking me to answer questions that are answered in a different museum" isn't a super encouraging response for independent inquiry. So we left for 4 after minimal questioning because we expected the big missing pieces to be there.

This is all coming up now because there's nothing left after this except Origin. The remaining missing pieces are just missing. There's a certainty about their absence that we couldn't have before now.
 
Remember when we offered Kicha the choice to Witness or Remember? And how Remember was very much not that?
Uh no, Snow did in fact tell us that was the case:
So you ghosted this time, and hoped that you would still be welcome. This was still a civilian installation, after all. You needn't have worried. Your Masque rippled faintly as a Shiplord approached, and as before at the tomb of the Zlathbu, bid you be welcome beneath the towers. This one, their use-name Kicha, offered you warm greetings of the Hearthguard, and a choice like the last. You left the small-talk to Vega, her Focus far more capable than your own in that respect.

"There are three paths here, to experience the truth of this place." Kicha said to you and your small party. "All are open to you, but only one may be taken first, and none of the Hearthguard will speak more of them without first knowing your choice."

A slight variation, but that was expected. Three more than two, that would change anything.

"Would you witness?" A hand-analogue rose towards the towers, before moving down, implying the plaza, you thought. "Remember?" The not-hand moved again, to the low structures that bound the three towers together into a circle. "Or experience?"

You have brought a maximum of three others with you. You may select as many you wish, or leave allocation to Amanda's discretion. Vega is automatically present. Elil has remained aboard the Adamant to ensure stealth is maintained.

[] Iris – Your daughter, and the only non-Unisonbound on the list. As an AI, she is more capable in the infospace than any other member of your crew, and her avatar is fully capable of interfacing with a Masque. She can think even faster than you can, but her physical capabilities still lag behind a Unisonbound. But then, so long as she has lagless signal she's never in any real danger.
[] Kalilah Mishra – A risky choice, you would have believed, but Kalilah has continued to change since the Third Battle of Sol. Her experiences in the home system of the Zlathbu have left their mark, though you are unsure if her request to join you this time was driven by curiosity or concern. If you are discovered, there will be no greater ally in returning you all safely home.
[] Lea Halwood – A Mender like you, though through a different lens, Lea tends to act as a sounding board for you, and the younger woman is very good at it. Easily capable of keeping up, and would provide a backup medic in the event of combat.
[] Mir Hayes – Apart from you and Vega, the only Speaker on the mission. Mir also possesses a truly rare Focus of Peace, and believes that he may be able to turn this to your advantage in seeking undisturbed access to the Shiplord memorial site. His request to join this mission was oddly intent.

And where do you choose to begin?

[] Witness
[] Experience
[] Remember
This is the vote for the first of the sorrow's we visited, at this point we did not know what either of these meant, however after we'd done so we did in fact get this:
[] Shelve this horror for now and continue with your visit at this Sorrow
-[] Remember

Amanda: Still our best chance to see more of Shiplord society. And maybe one of them could tell us more about the other Sorrows? Asking could be risky, though. None of us know enough about them to make proper conversation.
-[] Witness
Mir: We know what this is already, and I highly doubt it would have more information than what we've found here.
Telling us that Remembering was about learning more of Shiplord society, even later during this sorrow we once again got another choice:
What do you do next?
[] Seek another part of this place.
-[] Remember

Amanda: Still our best chance to see more of Shiplord society. And maybe one of them could tell us more about the other Sorrows? Asking will be more risk, though. It's become clear that for all our advantages, we still don't know them.
Lea: I'm not sure putting you into this so soon after you almost lost control is in any way a good idea.

-[] Witness
Mir: We know what this is already, and I highly doubt it would have more information than what we've found here.
Twice we are given the choice to either Remember or Witness and the details about what they do. So you cannot say that Snow did not tell us that was the option because uh... Snow did.
 
I do think a lot of people had at least expected the Fourth Sorrow to be about the origins of the Tribute system itself. Because by the time of the Zlathbu the system was already firmly in place and the Shiplords had already degenerated to the point of now committing mega-genocide not just to "teach a lesson" or whatever but also for the 'crime' of fighting back too competently... But the Hjivin Sphere alone was simply not enough to explain how all that unfolded, because while it would explain a harsh and punitive set of restrictions including a ban on Second Secret use for any reason, it wouldn't explain the "lesson of pain."

It really did seem like the Fourth Sorrow would connect those things.

Instead, the foundation of the Tribute system seems to be a "well, of course we decided to torture every new intelligent species in the galaxy with mega-genocide forever, and to exterminate any who didn't fight back hard enough when they didn't even know space aliens existed until we showed up, it was the obvious and only way" decision that took place off camera.

And the Fourth Sorrow was basically just them being sad that the closest thing they had to a peer species called them out on how bullshit this is and tried unsuccessfully to stop them, then decided to go fuck off into Instrumentality when they couldn't win.

...

As it stands, we have both unanswered questions about Shiplord society and unanswered questions about the Tribute system itself.

Naively, you'd think that that- the origins of the Tribute Fleets and their policies- would be the pivotal defining Sorrow that motivated the Hearthguard to even be what they are now. You'd think they'd memorialize that, that the entire point of the system would be to promote reflection on the Tribute system. Which would seem pretty hard to do without making sure visitors actually think about it and understand the history surrounding it, including comparative youngsters born within the last couple of million years who weren't alive then.

Of course, maybe it's the case that any normal Shiplord visiting these Sorrows for the first time would pick "Remember," because of Shiplords being weird like that, but that makes it kind of recursive, in that the key to understanding why something is the way it is is locked inside the box that key unlocks.
 
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I will also point out that you jumped straight to the Last Memory here on the Fourth. You have neither Witnessed nor Remembered the place as the Shiplords do.

This should probably be relevant.
 
Well, the good news is, those of us who voted overwhelmingly voted

[x] Return to the Hearthguard memorial to
- [x] Remember

...Including Torgamous herself, who has now quite understandably been taking point on the "a lot of this makes no goddamn sense" argument because, well, a lot of this makes no goddamn sense.

But the vote is pushing us in that direction, and I don't foresee that changing now, so we'll at least get something out of this.

I may be whistling in the dark, but "Remember the Fourth Sorrow" may be ideal for getting real answers to a lot of our questions simply because it's the only Sorrow that involves someone actually punching the Shiplords in the face and screaming "YOU! THE FUCK! WHAT THE FUCK! IS WRONG WITH YOU!" in a direct fashion. At a point in time when the Shiplords may not have had a literal million years or so to pour extra concrete over their biases in favor of the current system.

Which means that if we are "Remember"-ing either the feelings of the Shiplords who were getting punched in the face and screamed at by the Teel at the time, or the modern-day Shiplords reflecting on the part where the Teel punched them in the face and screamed at them... perhaps we will get a good close look at whatever bizarre rationalizations the Shiplords had for what they were doing that got them facepunched by the Teel.

...

Plus, of course, the part where at this point the caretaker knows we're actually magic space aliens with weird abilities and may be the only chance Hearthguardism has of effecting political change within the next ten million years.

So hopefully they will flex their mental muscles and, in a prodigious triumph of "basic common sense" and "wanting to succeed" over the seemingly innate Shiplord impulse to be an obscurantist bag of dicks (even Kicha wasn't immune)... Maybe they will feel motivated to give us the deluxe tour because they realize that us knowing more is actually likely to make us more effective at sorting this out.
 
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Well, this is why we voted to go interact with more Shiplords now (Remember). We pried some foundational secrets of their mystery cult out of their hands, and now that this hopefully means they can't just sidle around a gaping unsaid hole in their motivations anymore.

We may be approaching the point where we fundamentally can't continue with, say, asking a few questions of a Hearthguard unwilling/unable to open up about religious mysteries, or questioning a Shiplord who lacks the understanding of us being another species here to open up diplomacy. We need to actually do, and I can't believe this is the best way I can think of to put it, reasonable First Contact stuff. I know we've been infiltrating them and taking their deep cultural secrets, because they gave us no choice and because this is a loadstone of their society we HAD to get this way. But we need more about who civilian Shiplords are now, and maybe even at some point see that for ourselves when they aren't at a monument, however central.

I'm not that worried. It shouldn't be that hard to find an activist willing to explain about how to get a plebiscite running, or a traditionalist willing to expound on their bitterness about the system and the new pressures against it. But we actually need to do something like that.

Overall, I think a lot of this discussion does revolve around us now starting to notably outrun how fast Amanda can have these conversations - about the Shiplords with the crew, or with the Shiplords about their society and the war.
 
This. This right here.
So shiplord political development has stagnated at the "This is America, if you don't like it leave" stage.
But Remember was always flagged as the mechanism to interact with Shiplord society
I think the problem was that we thought that the shiplords were a functional civilization capable of weighing threats and courses of action. We thought that there was something big and evil that would justify the atrocities, why would we need to see the inner workings of a functional society?

The problem is that the shiplords are not a functional society, and we recognize that now.
 
Frankly, I'm still stuck on Kicha somehow not taking the golden opportunity to explain what the fuck the Tribute Cycle is meant to accomplish and why they continue supporting it on a purely democratic consensus even when the Gysians' continued existence is a Sorrow in itself and directly proves that it is fundamentally not the only way.

Sure, perhaps we didn't ask the exact questions that would get those answers. But given that Kicha has waited hundreds of thousands of years (at least) waiting, hoping for a chance like this, the idea that she wouldn't jump at the chance to explain it entirely of her own volition suggests that she just plain doesn't get it. She doesn't empathize with non-Shiplords, not because she doesn't want to, but because she lacks the ability to do so--or at least do so at a level even approaching any of other species we've encountered thus far. She hates the Tribute Cycle, yes, but it seems like she hates it more in the sense that she hates what the Shiplords have become rather than, y'know, because of the incomprehensible loss and suffering that the victims of the Cycle experience. She wants peace because she wants the Shiplords to stop being so awful; she doesn't seem to want peace because she wants the non-Shiplord races to not be xenocided, at least not beyond an intellectual level.

And even with all that she knows is at stake, at how miraculous this opportunity before her is, she still insists on sticking to an old tradition/oath and refusing to answer the questions that the humans she is literally begging to solve the Shiplords' problems for them NEED ANSWERED for them to have the best possible chance of achieving peace.

...or that was what we thought before, but now it's even worse. The Sorrows that she claimed would answer our questions did not, in fact, provide any answers to our questions at all. They may have explained why the Shiplords covertly penetrate the societies of all other races, but that is probably the least objectionable part of the Tribute Cycle if taken in isolation. They did not even begin to explain why the Shiplords start, continue with, and end all of their relations with other races with xenocide, tyranny, and terror. In fact, they did the opposite: they stopped short of xenocide for the worst case scenario of Secrets abuse and the encompassing Sorrow showed how that worked perfectly fine and has caused zero problems. And yet the Shiplords still sped down the slippery slope of mass megadeath forever on the basis of "this is the only way" despite having literally a religious pilgrimage to a Sorrow that showed an objectively better way being something that Shiplords do regularly.

Getting a better perspective on Shiplord society and what the hell they think they're doing would help us figure out how to convince them to stop, yes, and that's important to pursue. But I genuinely can't imagine how that is supposed to make them even remotely sympathetic, at least beyond a "well, it is kinda tragic that you've accidentally mentally lobotomized yourselves in a way that you can't recognize and consciously decide to forcefully murder or drive-to-suicide everyone else who might ever be able to solve the problem, but that does not mean that you're even remotely deserving of forgiveness, trust, or respect" level.

I'm reminded of Paarthunax, from Skyrim: "Which is better? To be born good, or to overcome one's evil nature through great effort?" Paarthunax overcame his evil nature, and convinced others of his kind to do the same. Likewise, it is entirely possible for people incapable of properly empathizing with others to still choose to learn of ethics/morals on an intellectual level and commit to following them as best as they are able, because they recognize that their disability doesn't prevent them from choosing to overcome it. The Shiplords fail at both--they are fully capable of recognizing their hypocrisy and inability on intellect and historical record alone, but do not even try to overcome their flaw through determined effort.

We've seen too much of the Shiplords' history, of their actions and methodology, of their culture, of their governance, and even spoken openly to several of their best possible representatives who had the chance to at least try explaining themselves. And they've either refused for rather unsatisfying reasons, or just not placed much importance on the issue to begin with. Indeed, when Kicha was asked and given the chance to explain, she placed more value over her oath of tradition--over herself and the Hearthguard--than over the extremely deserved answers the latest victims of the Shiplords' inexcusable atrocities were begging for. Which, it seems, is quintessential Shiplord behavior: even when they try doing the right thing, it's for self-absorbed reasons. When they do the wrong thing, they act in selfish ways--a refusal to explain, a refusal to be honest ("This is the only way" and that's it, despite the Gysian Sorrow literally and physically showing undeniable proof that this is a lie), a refusal to try to be better, and a refusal to ever directly explain the supposed justification for their atrocities and let themselves be grilled for the bullshit afterwards. Even the one time the Shiplords ever allowed another people to know, it was indirect and impersonal--"You want the truth? Go there and look at that archive for yourselves. Good luck. Bye." Then jump-cut to "they spent a century looking at it, determined that they could not solve the problem themselves, and then collectively commit suicide because they could neither force the Shiplords to stop nor bear to just stay idly by and watch such atrocity unfold without doing anything to stop it, and knew that they couldn't convince the Shiplords to not be monsters".

And fundamentally, the reason we've always focused on Witness rather than Remember is because we fundamentally do not trust the Shiplords or believe that they have a good relationship with the truth, even among themselves. This journey has been one about finding out the truth first, and learning about how the Shiplords rationalize everything and distort the truth themselves second. And the most strikingly absent thing from the Sorrows that we've seen is the start, cause, justification, or reasoning behind the Tribute Cycle. If the Sorrows are the biggest milestones marking the Shiplords' fall from grace, the fact that the Shiplords themselves don't seem to consider "the point at which we just default to mass murder and destruction right from the start" as one of those milestones is as telling as it is horrifying.

And a small thing: you say that the only reason the Shiplords discovered the Gysians' development of vacuum implosion weapons in time was because of the total penetration of the Gysians' society. But if that was actually the case, how in the fuck did they react so late that the Gysians completed at least one such weapon and got into a position to deploy it before the Shiplords could even muster a response at all? And worse still, the obvious lesson from such a failure--be ready to respond to any red flags raised from such intel way faster and more decisively, and maybe warn a species ahead of time that pushing the Secrets too far without proper guidance could end up having catastrophic consequences for themselves and everyone else--seems to have been rejected in favor of "start with mass murder and destruction first, then return and terrify and brutalize them again the moment they've started to pick themselves back up, and keep doing that until they're strong enough that we can no longer do it so easily, and throw in a dire warning that we know is a total lie just so that it will make them much easier to xenocide if/when we decide to do that, because surely them finding out that the warning was a bunch of bullshit won't directly lead to them thinking that all of our other warnings were total bullshit too."

We should probably go back to Kicha and ask her straight up, "Okay, give us a good history lesson of how the fuck the Shiplords arrived upon the Tribute Cycle as a solution to anything and why the majority of your society supports it, and why the minority that doesn't support it doesn't seem to care enough to actually do anything about it. No, I do not even slightly care about any of your oaths or reservations or traditions. You're begging us to fix your mess, and us choosing to come out here for these answers instead of staying to protect our people from your people's attempt at completely unjustified xenocide resulted in several of our friends dying and one of them being abducted. We're out of patience for trying to find the best possible explanation by following your recommendations; we'll have to settle for the best you can offer here and now, because I really don't think you or any of the Hearthguard comprehend the suffering and outrage your atrocities inflict or just how much literally everyone else in the galaxy hates you all. We need the best answers you, personally, can give us, because a recurring theme we've noticed is that Shiplords seem utterly, violently opposed to explaining themselves directly."
 
It's directly answering a question about the "blow up at least one ship" part. "Prove that you're worthy of their gifts" means blow up at least one ship. If it doesn't fit the "blow up at least one ship" part then we have more serious communication issues than I thought.
The problem I have with that connection is simply that so far I assumed the SL are interested in species that aren't going to blow up the universe; and a species that doesn't have an armed space force because it isn't yet xenophobic seems like a better bet on not blowing up the universe than one that goes into spaces with ships bristling with weapons. That dichotomy between 'don't be a risk to the universe' and 'you must be armed and ready to fight when entering space' is something I don't get.
 
There are so many questions that have been asked in the last few pages that the Remember option could have answered. But it never got taken. This isn't to put all blame on the playerbase, I'm the QM and I have a responsibility to try and explain things. But there's a limit to how I can do that in-story if the votes continually pull you away from the avenues for me to answer the questions being asked.
I wasn't part of these votes, but looking back at the discussion around them the clear consensus was that Amanda and her crew never had enough cultural background to meaningfully interact with the Shiplords in such a casual way without making it extremely obvious that they were cultural outsiders and aliens. This was borne out by the way that Kicha and Entara pretty much immediately rumbled Amanda within minutes of their introduction, and Rinel pretty obviously did as well, but was just too polite / cowed by Kicha's seal to say anything. The more impersonal and proctored "Witness" options were, from what I can tell, always taken as an attempt to build up this cultural background enough to not immediately give away the game, but that kept not happening because the Hearthguards' oaths to not talk about any Sorrow but their own serve to deliberately divorce themselves from contextualizing their own Sorrow, much less the others, into the modern Shiplord cultural zeitgeist, preventing Amanda and Co from learning anything about it.

Really it's no wonder that the Hearthguards have become less culturally relevant over the centuries. The way that Kicha and the rest have interpreted their oaths of service have ensured that they remain locked in isolated ivory towers, forever cloistered away from, and unable to influence, the bulk of Shiplord society.
 
The problem I have with that connection is simply that so far I assumed the SL are interested in species that aren't going to blow up the universe; and a species that doesn't have an armed space force because it isn't yet xenophobic seems like a better bet on not blowing up the universe than one that goes into spaces with ships bristling with weapons. That dichotomy between 'don't be a risk to the universe' and 'you must be armed and ready to fight when entering space' is something I don't get.
Yeah, the lesson we've learned on this expedition is that the Shiplords are in fact cuckoo bananas and it was wrong of us to expect them to be doing things for practical reasons.

Which is pretty realistic for genocidal polities.
 
Yeah, the lesson we've learned on this expedition is that the Shiplords are in fact cuckoo bananas and it was wrong of us to expect them to be doing things for practical reasons.

Which is pretty realistic for genocidal polities.
If that's true ... how can you come up with a rational plan when confronted with an irrational adversary? I mean, besides 'mend the SL'.
Edit: I at least assumed an internal coherent story the SL tell themselves (which would make it possible to insert ourselves into the narrative and change it); but we have at least two examples where their stated overarching goal and their behavior directly contradict each other.
 
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I know it's been a long story spread over a long time, but it does seem like you've forgotten a lot of what happened over the course of the quest. There are, in fact, answers to most of your questions, and you've acknowledged them yourself in previous messages, so the problem here is more that you're rejecting the answers rather than them not having been provided both in and out of story. There comes a time when you have to choose to suspend your disbelief; not every work of fiction is going to jive with the way you reason about the world.

What is the Tribute Cycle meant to accomplish? This one is plainly obvious: Maintain control with an iron fist to make sure that no one who finds the Secrets can repeat what terrible things happened in the past.

Why do they continue supporting it? Because they don't have any better ideas.

Why are the Gysians an exception? Why did the Shiplords wait so long to stop them? Because the Shiplords used to see themselves as teachers and they thought they could reason with them. They hadn't yet chosen to martyr their emotions for the sake of the greater good.

Why did Kicha hold to her oath? Doylistically, because there was more story to tell. Watsonianly, because oathbreakers shouldn't be trusted, so going back on her word would be counterproductive to her objectives.

Yes, the Shiplords as a whole do refuse to be honest, because through their trauma they've come to believe that honesty will lead to disaster. It wasn't always this way.

We haven't finished visiting the Sorrows yet, so to claim that they haven't answered our questions is premature.

And at some level you need to read between the lines to figure out the path they took rather than having it spoonfed to you.
 
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