The Secrets' Crusade

[SaltyWaffles]

There are extremely valid reasons for why humanity jumped at the chance offered by Tahkel's interaction with Amanda. Not wanting to set the entire galaxy on fire to the tune of anywhere from a third to half its habitable worlds and systems reduced to ash is kinda the biggest one.

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I keep coming back to this and wondering how in the hell the Shiplords reconcile their decision to wage full-scale galactic war with an alliance of seven races that will see destruction at least on par with the War of the Sphere with their whole driving motivation being the protection of the galaxy and the universe from Secrets abuse...given that they have literally no indication whatsoever that any of those races have even hinted at any intention of any Secrets abuse.

The Shiplords didn't send the War Fleet + Lumens to Sol to stop some galactic calamity, they sent it to snuff any potential future threat to their galactic dominance out at the first sign of its existence. Said War Fleet did not even attempt diplomacy, negotiation, or dialog before trying to xenocide humanity, either.

The Shiplords have decided to fight an entire galactic war purely to preserve their galactic dominance for its own sake, no matter the cost. I feel like this needs to be reiterated because of how baffling it is that the Shiplords would have a democratic government where the military does not rule supreme yet they also sign off on total war against seven species that have literally done none of the things that the Shiplords constantly claim to do everything they do to prevent.

Everything the Shiplords insist that they must do to prevent far worse things is contradicted by all of the things they routinely do that very obviously and cruelly has little to nothing to do with the far worse things they want to prevent. The most blatant example being the extermination of a young species upon First Contact simply because they don't manage to put up quite enough of a good fight through literally bad luck--literally no justification for that whatsoever even according to every possible argument the Shiplords have presented thus far, and it wasn't a unique event. In fact, it was so mundane that even the Hearthguard don't even mention or think about the one such event we know about--it's just another Tuesday for them. If we're going to talk about horrific abuse of the Secrets, it's rather hard not to look at the demonic elephant in the room that is the Shiplords abusing the fuck out of the Secrets to xenocide species left and right, commit mass murder and destruction on a staggering scale regularly, subverting and enslaving innocent people to force them to betray their own people and friends/family, and pushing species that survive all of this into committing collective suicide through endless despair, terror, trauma, and learned helplessness. Yes, "there have been rare occasions of things that were or would have become even worse eventually" and all that, but...the Shiplords are ageless beings with over three million years of history and experience. And the very last refuge for any kind of excuse they might have is also one they are so secretive about that it honestly seems like only a tiny fraction of the Shiplords themselves even know about it, yet it somehow justifies their own blatant hypocrisy, atrocity, and cruelty even as they lament how they have done those things (and continue to do them).

 

[Snowfire]

Work has been really busy, sorry for cherrypicking this, more later hopefully.

The Shiplords have decided to fight an entire galactic war purely to preserve their galactic dominance for its own sake, no matter the cost. I feel like this needs to be reiterated because of how baffling it is that the Shiplords would have a democratic government where the military does not rule supreme yet they also sign off on total war against seven species that have literally done none of the things that the Shiplords constantly claim to do everything they do to prevent.

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The specific note I'm going after here is the democratic government part, not anything else - that deserves some of its own focus. The War Fleet response to humanity can be considered in line with standard escalation routes for the Tribute System, which is itself a valid judgement against that system as it functions. Remember that at the time the Shiplords had no awareness of any broader rebellion, just that humanity had declared war on them. That the declaration is based on valid complaints about their stewardship of the galaxy is honestly less relevant than an extremely young race declaring war with intent and seeming belief in their ability to win.

Amanda causing a star system to literally shake from the power of her soul within range of an entire Regular Fleet's sensors may have contributed to their response.

Back in the PW thread it was noted that whilst humanity was fully committed to war against the Shiplords, the Shiplords were not fully committed to fighting a war against humanity. The Fourth Battle of Sol showed you a glimpse of what happens when that commitment changes. You told the Shiplords at the end of Third Sol that you weren't going to back down.

The deployment process of this would have involved a committee vote on the matter, but again, you've just declared war on them and your rate of technological advancement is sufficient to make that a potential problem if they let you get your feet under you. They remember what's happened when they've let races advancing faster than normal (and humanity is an outlier among outliers here thanks to Practice) get properly situated. So they escalated right back. From their perspective? What they did was a measured response to humanity's actions.

Are they right to say so? That's a matter of opinion. Humanity knew and fully expected this to happen as an initial response, so their opinion is probably a bit warped. The real question in a lot of minds at the moment is how will the Shiplords respond to the full shape of this conflict once it becomes clear. Remember that it's been less than six months since the Adamant left Sol. The Authority will have requested response options from Central Command, Central Command will have complied, and at this point...it's possible that the Shiplords haven't even decided what to do next.

Which is, when Mandy thinks on it, probably why Kicha was so determined to help. It's not just her desire to change things, or what you gave her: it's the timing.

 

[SaltyWaffles]

I mean, saying that "we won't just change our minds and surrender to you less than a century after you just pointlessly massacred 90% of our adult population, burnt our colonies to the ground, and then threatened to finish the job entirely if we didn't rigidly adhere to your threats that you never bothered to explain the reasoning behind whatsoever" is not so much a declaration of war as "we won't accept your hegemony over us, ever" and the Shiplords being absolutely triggered by anyone that doesn't accept that the Shiplords can do whatever they want to you if they feel like it.

Furthermore, the whole "humanity declared war on us!" feels unbelievably hollow when, y'know, the Shiplords invaded Sol without any justification, provocation, or attempt at diplomacy before almost exterminating humanity, wrecking most of what it had built, and thoroughly traumatizing the entire species just to lay down some rules via threats that humanity would probably have been willing to accept without going beyond the initial engagement with the Dragon Flights. In other words, the Shiplords cross just about every line and go far beyond mere war on First Contact as standard procedure. They then repeat the procedure later on even if no rules are violated at all, and if the species manages to defend itself against that, then they send another, much tougher force to do it all over again, all without any explanation whatsoever. Humanity saying "we're not going to give up and we're done playing by your rules, because we have every reason to hate you and everything you stand for" is basically what every species that reaches that point would want to say if they weren't held back by sheer fear of the Shiplords' merciless dominance.

Sure, it can be seen as reasonable from the standard procedure the Shiplords follow. But that kind of requires that the Shiplords look at their basic standard procedure and somehow never stop to think "hey maybe we're the ones constantly escalating things to enormous atrocity for no goddamned reason all the fucking time"?

I really, really hope that the Shiplords have something actually wrong with their souls that makes them so bizarrely incapable of understanding how insane and hypocritical their actions are, especially given how they routinely visit and revere the Sorrows yet somehow go on to betray every lesson and tragedy without pause all the time. I mean, hell, they regularly visit the Gysians and the Sorrow showing how critical it was that the Shiplords realized that xenocide was a step too far and literally unnecessary even for such a monumental transgression...and then go right on to being A-Okay with xenociding completely innocent species on First Contact because they couldn't do enough damage to a Tribute Fleet despite their best efforts due to sheer luck. Like...what the fuck is wrong with their brains or souls that they can't recognize the staggering hypocrisy there?

The Shiplords have two fundamental goals:
1) Prevent a universal threat from emerging via Secerts abuse.
2) Prevent a galactic threat from emerging via Secrets abuse.

They have thus far succeeded at #1, so credit there. However, while they initially succeeded at #2, they have long since failed at it utterly, because they are the galactic threat via Secrets abuse. They may not be a #1-type threat, but they are absolutely a #2-type threat and ensure that literally no one can fix that fact or fix the underlying problem that allows for the existence of #1-type threats. So...Amanda can basically argue to the Shiplords that they are fundamentally failing at their jobs for #2 and that they really only work when you need someone with a very high level of force and capability to deal with a #1-type threat or a #2-type threat that is too much for everyone else to handle. Which...well, the Shiplords can delegate the judgement aspect of those kinds of threats to other races that aren't so goddamned incapable of rational thought. Boom, problem solved. And if the Shiplords won't accept that judgement? Amanda can point out that the Shiplords are seriously considering burning half the galaxy to the ground fighting an alliance of seven races fighting for the right to just fucking exist all so that the Shiplords can maintain their galactic dominance for its own sake, and if that doesn't explicitly make the Shiplords qualify as a #2-tyle threat, nothing qualifies.

 

[Snowfire]

So...Amanda can basically argue to the Shiplords that they are fundamentally failing at their jobs for #2 and that they really only work when you need someone with a very high level of force and capability to deal with a #1-type threat or a #2-type threat that is too much for everyone else to handle. Which...well, the Shiplords can delegate the judgement aspect of those kinds of threats to other races that aren't so goddamned incapable of rational thought. Boom, problem solved. And if the Shiplords won't accept that judgement? Amanda can point out that the Shiplords are seriously considering burning half the galaxy to the ground fighting an alliance of seven races fighting for the right to just fucking exist all so that the Shiplords can maintain their galactic dominance for its own sake, and if that doesn't explicitly make the Shiplords qualify as a #2-tyle threat, nothing qualifies.

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These are good words.

Got volunteered for something that is going to eat my afternoon so I can't say much more, but these words are good. Though I'd be a little more candid with your comments as to rational thought, that's myself.

 

[Mossconfig]

Got volunteered for something that is going to eat my afternoon

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You don't have to answer here, feel free to take your time and make all these questions we have answerable via more in depth infiltration of shiplord society. Perhaps we can steal some shiplord civilian craft and send out more infiltration teams?

 

[Lightwhispers]

Everything the Shiplords insist that they must do to prevent far worse things is contradicted by all of the things they routinely do that very obviously and cruelly has little to nothing to do with the far worse things they want to prevent.

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To address this - a problem with this argument, I think, is that the Galaxy is big, and information takes time to disseminate. And the Shiplord experience is very much one of things looking fine until it's pretty much too late for anything but full-scale war.

Also, you keep going "rationality", when this whole quest is about discovering how the Shiplords are not thinking rationally.
And bog-standard humans are quite capable of this level of hypocrisy, as is quite evident IRL these days.

You don't have to answer here, feel free to take your time and make all these questions we have answerable via more in depth infiltration of shiplord society. Perhaps we can steal some shiplord civilian craft and send out more infiltration teams?

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The Adamant's Uninvolved-tinkered First Secret drive is absurdly faster than anything else - other infiltration teams would be too slow to be of major use, just in terms of getting in place.

 

[Silverking]

I think the big issue, one of the major contributing factors to this whole tragedy, is that the Shiplords believe that they have no equals. The Consolat were their brothers, the Teel'sanha were their apprentices, and the rest are fungible. All of their actions are based on a foundation of "We were here first, thus we know better than you, and therefore it is our prerogative and position to make sure the rest of you children don't blow us all up." From this perspective, sending out the Tribute Fleets is their right and duty, and humanity's "punching back" is the action that came out of nowhere.

I believe the main benefit of Amanda and crew finding and finishing the Consolat's notes is that it would finally "elevate" them to a position where the Shiplords are culturally primed to actually heed their opinion as an equal... and THEN we can finally give the "What the actual hell!?" speech and not be brushed off.

 

[Mossconfig]

The Adamant's Uninvolved-tinkered First Secret drive is absurdly faster than anything else - other infiltration teams would be too slow to be of major use, just in terms of getting in place.

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Then we don't need to move a hijacked ship from earth to a target under it's own power, we just need to move an infiltration team from earth to an isolated shiplord vessel closer to a target. Such an infiltration team wouldn't be trecking across the galaxy, they'd just be in one area or stellar neighborhood.

It would also allow for in cannon explanations, not just Word of God.

 

[SaltyWaffles]

To address this - a problem with this argument, I think, is that the Galaxy is big, and information takes time to disseminate. And the Shiplord experience is very much one of things looking fine until it's pretty much too late for anything but full-scale war.

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That's not true for the Shiplords. They have an entire network of lagless communications across the galaxy. Which we are currently in the process of destroying, sure, but up until then it has existed for a very long time. Combined with the fact that they have extensive knowledge of the capabilities and goings-on of every species of significant size other than humanity, and we're left with the one instance in which they don't immediately know everything they want to know about a one-system species that they can't glean by force with a single Regular Fleet results in extermination via War Fleet and Lumens post-haste.

And the whole "things looking fine until it's pretty much too late for anything but full-scale war" thing? That happened once. Literally once. And the obvious solution--even to the Shiplords--was to just have a lot more military force ready to go than they had previously settled on, including the existence of Regular Fleets. So they solved that problem a long, long time ago. Yet they somehow insist on taking one (incorrect) lesson from all of that to the absolute extreme of "you don't need to be prepared for full-scale war if you just near-xenocide everyone you come across and brutalize/terrorize them repeatedly once they're a little harder to bully into submission". Yeah, sure, you don't need to be prepared for full-scale war if you exterminate all of your potential opposite in their cribs and then cripple the rest for life afterwards...until you drive them to suicide from bullying them relentlessly.

Also, you keep going "rationality", when this whole quest is about discovering how the Shiplords are not thinking rationally.
And bog-standard humans are quite capable of this level of hypocrisy, as is quite evident IRL these days.

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There is "not thinking rationally" and then there is "the oldest, most experienced, most educated, and most advanced species in the galaxy is incapable of figuring out the obvious that literally everyone else can see with ease". Yes, humanity is perfectly capable of lots of hypocrisy and irrationality. But that overwhelmingly involves the parts of humanity that are inexperienced, poor or super rich, living in a very much scarcity society, with a short life under their belts, led by people who are often awful people themselves who manipulate those under them for personal gain. Everything we've seen thus far of Shiplord society suggests that they are far better than that, which presents the seeming paradox.

Oh yeah, and human hypocrisy gets called out all the time, and we have changed a heck of a lot in the span of decades. The Shiplords, on the other hand, somehow keep getting worse over the course of millions of years, and despite seemingly wanting a different way, they are fully supportive of doing everything in their power to ensure that nothing ever changes and that no one else ever has the chance to even offer input.

That said, if there is something seriously wrong with the souls of the Shiplords that really fucks with their ability to rationally think about any of this stuff, then it would actually make sense, and be all the more tragic, since soul-stuff is something the Shiplords have always been utterly lacking in any talent for, and if there is a big soul-type problem with their ability to figure out how/why they're fucking up so hard, then their inability to even diagnose/recognize their own problem makes sense and is just sad. Especially because their own methodology robs them of any chance for a species that would have the talent/capability for diagnosing and fixing the Shiplords' soul problem to survive long enough or even have the willingness to try helping a people they utterly hate and fear. So I really hope that this is the case.

 

[Snowfire]

That happened once. Literally once.

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There was a Sorrow about it once. That is not the same thing.

 

[Lightwhispers]

There is "not thinking rationally" and then there is "the oldest, most experienced, most educated, and most advanced species in the galaxy is incapable of figuring out the obvious that literally everyone else can see with ease".

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This is not the case.
You may think it is the case, but it is not.
If nothing else, there are about 5 people who aren't Shiplords with enough information to actually make that assessment.

Stop assuming that you are representative of the people of the galaxy.

 

[MTB]

I keep coming back to this and wondering how in the hell the Shiplords reconcile their decision to wage full-scale galactic war with an alliance of seven races that will see destruction at least on par with the War of the Sphere with their whole driving motivation being the protection of the galaxy and the universe from Secrets abuse...given that they have literally no indication whatsoever that any of those races have even hinted at any intention of any Secrets abuse.

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That's easy: 1) We are the dam that keeps the universe from breaking; 2) these races endanger the dam ergo 3) make them stop (by any means, of course, because of 1)).

 

[SaltyWaffles]

That's easy: 1) We are the dam that keeps the universe from breaking; 2) these races endanger the dam ergo 3) make them stop (by any means, of course, because of 1)).

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Except that #2 is utterly baseless. The issue is that the Shiplords draw a red line at the existence of anything in the galaxy that could be a potential threat to their forceful dominance. It doesn't matter if no rules have been broken or sins have been committed, nor does it matter if they're willing to cooperate with the Shiplords to protect the galaxy/universe. If the Shiplords had just...not decided to promptly xenocide humanity right after the Regular Fleet was driven off, this war would not be happening, and Shiplord hegemony would not be threatened any time soon. But the Shiplords wouldn't tolerate other races to exist without also being constantly at the Shiplords' mercy via War Fleet+Lumen deployment ending their existence. Case in point: the Uninvolved. Even though the Uninvolved also protect the galaxy and universe from those kinds of threats, the Shiplords witnessing an Uninvolved getting involved to save their asses and the galaxy/universe when the Shiplords were unable to caused them to develop weapons and a sensor network designed to detect any Uninvolved presence and murder them immediately. In other words: even when sharing the same goals, feeling very similarly, and having a fondness and past positive relationship with the Shiplords, the Shiplords still treat the Uninvolved as a threat to be ready to exterminate at any time because they are beyond the Shiplords' ability to control.

Yes, that's extreme paranoia for you, and it's not hard to see why the Shiplords viewed it the way they did (not that it's an excuse, but still). But the simple fact of the matter is that the Shiplords are control freaks first and guardians second. They will not accept any kind of peer to exist outside of their control/mercy even if said peer would be a natural ally and in full agreement about the core goals of the Shiplords. Put a forced choice before the Shiplords where they can either seriously jeopardize the galaxy/universe but retain their dominance if they win or allow for a peer to arise that also desires to protect the galaxy/universe from Secrets abuse, and I imagine the Shiplords would greatly struggle with that choice despite the rather obvious contradiction between their goals and their objections to the second option.

 

[Mossconfig]

And I I think this is where we're spinning in circles. I don't think the best way to learn these secrets is to get it infodumped on us, I for one am looking forward to a heist arc.

 

[Lightwhispers]

This is the heist arc.

Or rather, the "sneak into the enemy's heartland and get in touch with The Resistance" arc.

 

[Mossconfig]

get in touch with The Resistance

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In terms of resistance we found one completely defeated and demoralized ex soldier and the Gysians. And the corpse of the Teel. We don't know what the rest of shiplord society looks like, and therefore cannot choose the most effective option to end this.

I still think we should go home and offload all the information we have, then poke the consolat origin, then deeper infiltration.

 

[Lightwhispers]

In terms of resistance we found one completely defeated and demoralized ex soldier and the Gysians. And the corpse of the Teel. We don't know what the rest of shiplord society looks like, and therefore cannot choose the most effective option to end this.

I still think we should go home and offload all the information we have, then poke the consolat origin, then deeper infiltration.

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...
I am done.
If you're not going to engage honestly, I'm not going to bother with engaging at all.

 

[TheEyes]

The Fourth Battle of Sol showed you a glimpse of what happens when that commitment changes. You told the Shiplords at the end of Third Sol that you weren't going to back down.

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It should be noted that this is completely false. In fact, the only two times that Amanda, and, by proxy, the rest of Humanity, communicated with the Shiplords, these were the messages sent:

• I just want to Understand.
  • Shiplord response: We're not going to tell you why we're slaughtering you, but, because of all the things we know that we won't tell you, we know you'll thank us for it eventually.
• Why the Tribute Fleets? Why do you insist on killing us with no explanation?
  • Shiplord response: We're still not going to tell you anything, and we'll be back to finish you off soon.

I'm not sure how either of those two messages could be construed as a sign of aggression, let alone a committment to out-sized escalation and total war; all of that is happening solely on the Shiplord side.

There was a Sorrow about it once. That is not the same thing.

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It's WOG statements like this that make me think that going to the Sorrows specifically was somewhat counter-productive, or at least has given us readers a very skewed view of Shiplord history and society.

These five Sorrows are meant to show us the core of the Shiplord belief structure, the five "core memories" that make up the trajectory of current Shiplord society. What have we found?

• Two (First and Third) instances where the universe was almost destroyed, and the Shiplords managed to barely not bungle them entirely, but it was really close and in response the Shiplords decided to become more militant and unreasonable,
• Two (Fourth and Fifth) instances where the Shiplords did bungle badly. As a result two ultimately harmless species were destroyed, and in response the Shiplords... decided to become more militant and unreasonable,
• One (Second) instance where the Shiplords managed, at nearly the last possible second, to not bungle things too badly, and saved a species from destruction. Perhaps unsurprisingly, this is the one Sorrow that the Shiplords have gone to extreme lengths to repudiate in its entirety, seems to have the least influence over them in the modern era, and in response the Shiplords decided to become more militant and unreasonable.

What haven't we seen? We haven't seen a single instance where the Shiplords actually unequivocally did the right thing, made the correct call. We haven't seen any instances where the Shiplords were right to escalate like they do. All we've ever seen, over and over, is instances where the Shiplords make rash calls, right or wrong, caused a tragedy, and then, on reflecting on their actions, resolve to do worse next time. More aggression; less analysis; more isolationism; less diplomacy; every time.

You insist in these discussions that we view the Shiplords as tragic figures, and that there's redeeming qualities to and mitigating factors for some of them, but so far all we've really seen is a pack of monsters behaving monstrously, and doubling down on their monstrosity in response to stimuli that by all rights should be doing the exact opposite. Is it any wonder that most of us are barely able to discern much difference between the Shiplords and the Hijivians? Sure, in the abstract the Hijivians are much worse, but it's coming off like you're telling us that we can totally make peace with the Shiplords, because sure they're unrepentant mass murderers but at least they're not mutilating the bodies and teabagging the corpses.

 

[Simon_Jester]

Yeah.

Not gonna lie... this is how the Shiplords come across.

If there's a piece of the puzzle missing here that makes them sympathetic or tragic, it's hard to imagine what it is.

One can accept that there is a need to somehow make peace with them, without really feeling like they deserve it, in any cosmic sense.

 

[ilbgar123]

So, speaking of the Hivjin, are there any recorded instances of things with the ability to eat souls on a smaller scale emerging? In line with 40K Daemons and their 'if you die to them, you're probably going to find your soul in their stomach' principle.

 

[Baughn]

If there's a piece of the puzzle missing here that makes them sympathetic or tragic, it's hard to imagine what it is.

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The piece that's missing is their children, I would say.

The Shiplords are immortal. The people in charge now are the same people who were in charge back during the First, except for evaporative cooling where those who couldn't stand where things were going committed suicide, and/or got frozen. Those who remain are monsters. Traumatised monsters; still monsters.

It's not necessarily that they're traumatised as a species. It's the same people.

While they're nominally a democracy, births are rare enough that younger Shiplords simply don't form a viable voting group. They decided at some point not to cover the galaxy in a ball of Shiplords; as a result, they must be pretty close to replacement level reproduction. And if that means the number of births is only enough to replace those who decide they've had enough…

There's still going to be billions of children.

It's the same problem as with the Gysians, actually. That's probably how we should view them. So the question is really… do we want a repeat of that Sorrow?

 

[Simon_Jester]

While they're nominally a democracy, births are rare enough that younger Shiplords simply don't form a viable voting group. They decided at some point not to cover the galaxy in a ball of Shiplords; as a result, they must be pretty close to replacement level reproduction. And if that means the number of births is only enough to replace those who decide they've had enough…

There's still going to be billions of children.

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Well, I'm not saying "exterminate the Shiplord species."

I'm saying "The Shiplords, as in the actual individuals who are doing all this stuff and even just the median citizen who clearly knows roughly what is being done and consents to it, just do not come across as sympathetic. And they're not going to, barring some kind of soul-mutilation or other thing that's just... totally unknown to us at the moment.

This isn't about "no no, you can't destroy the Shiplord civilization with all of the fire because of this," it's about "do you really have any sympathy for the median, the average, the collective aggregate gestalt?"

...

It's also telling that we're finding the most compelling analogy to the Shiplords to be the Gysians, a species whose leadership decided to blow up the universe out of spite. I've got no sympathy at all for Gysians who were complicit in that decision, any more than I do for the Shiplords... and the reason I'm still saying "the Shiplords" is that insofar as Shiplord society is a democracy and the Shiplords have had aeons to process their trauma if they were so inclined, I'm pretty sure that a sizeable majority of all living Shiplords are that complicit.

Because if you repeatedly vote for the "torture-murder-exterminate" party in Shiplord Congress, then at some point... you're morally not really on a different level from the guy who said "yeah sure, let's blow up the universe!"

 

[Baughn]

Because if you repeatedly vote for the "torture-murder-exterminate" party in Shiplord Congress, then at some point... you're morally not really on a different level from the guy who said "yeah sure, let's blow up the universe!"

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There's a significant subset that consistently votes against, but given the mechanics I outlined above they're never going to get a majority. Of course, without spending a lot more time inside their society we'll never notice that. They're the ones who build and maintain the Sorrows, and the people we're most likely to run into here…

Then there's everyone else. As a species, the Shiplords aren't supposed to be sympathetic. Really, they're not. Otto Apocalypse is a much better person than the average Shiplord, for pity's sake.

So let's try not to repeat their sins, and if we can cause an internal anti-democratic rebellion where the minority takes over, so much the better. As a second best case, if they splinter then the war will go much better.

In that case there will be splinter factions who are, as a matter of fact, nowhere near as terrible as the Shiplords we're currently fighting a war with. We should probably be open to cooperating with them.

 

[Snowfire]

It should be noted that this is completely false. In fact, the only two times that Amanda, and, by proxy, the rest of Humanity, communicated with the Shiplords, these were the messages sent:

• I just want to Understand.
  • Shiplord response: We're not going to tell you why we're slaughtering you, but, because of all the things we know that we won't tell you, we know you'll thank us for it eventually.
• Why the Tribute Fleets? Why do you insist on killing us with no explanation?
  • Shiplord response: We're still not going to tell you anything, and we'll be back to finish you off soon.

I'm not sure how either of those two messages could be construed as a sign of aggression, let alone a committment to out-sized escalation and total war; all of that is happening solely on the Shiplord side.

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To quote Amanda at the Third Battle of Sol.

"We cannot call it from the stars. But the fire we wield can still be your doom."

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At this point I'm not sure if you're misremembering what was actually said or are deliberately misrepresenting. In simple terms: what you've said isn't what the text said. It's the population thing all over again, except even worse.

Stop it.

 

[Simon_Jester]

Under the circumstances, I would characterize Amanda's words as a perfectly understandable response from a bunch of genocide survivors.

My take is:

"Unlike all those other species, we can fight back, you know. So answer the damn question for the first time in aeons, instead of keeping your head firmly up your own ass and incommunicado."

If the Shiplords feel threatened by that, then honestly I extend them about as much sympathy as I do to a guy who spends hours ranting about "straight white male erasure" because somewhere in town there's a black lady who makes more money than he does. Someone who does terrible things and gets away with it for so long that his sense of narcissistic injury explodes when anyone even tries to deter him, and lashes out, isn't a sympathetic character.

And a society that endorses such actions isn't a sympathetic society.

There's a significant subset that consistently votes against, but given the mechanics I outlined above they're never going to get a majority. Of course, without spending a lot more time inside their society we'll never notice that. They're the ones who build and maintain the Sorrows, and the people we're most likely to run into here…

Then there's everyone else. As a species, the Shiplords aren't supposed to be sympathetic. Really, they're not. Otto Apocalypse is a much better person than the average Shiplord, for pity's sake.

So let's try not to repeat their sins, and if we can cause an internal anti-democratic rebellion where the minority takes over, so much the better. As a second best case, if they splinter then the war will go much better.

In that case there will be splinter factions who are, as a matter of fact, nowhere near as terrible as the Shiplords we're currently fighting a war with. We should probably be open to cooperating with them.

Click to shrink...

Speaking as someone who's long ago internalized that even very destructive and terrible societies can contain innocents, and for whom the phrase "if you fight him you will become just like him" has long since palled and ceased to hold any charms...

It's like, I believe you, but there's a tone issue here, and I imagine you can understand where it comes from.