Well...the Orks are trying to reevaluate their stances of War Worlds and Da Factory is pouring out materials and what not. Meanwhile the Khornates are changing tactics as well...it's not impossible, but as you pointed out hyper-aggressive forces tend to be on the offensive all the time...if you are on the defensive, you are either planning something big or you have lost momentum completely.
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The Lost Primarch Quest
- Thread starter Daemon Hunter
- Start date
ok sooo
some things I think we need to do:
1. Sort out what everyone wants, this includes Kelbor, Mortarion, most of the other primarchs we can talk to, and if possible get a hold of an alpha legionnaire to get an idea of what emps and malcador want aside from people to stop questioning them/digging into their closet skeletons.
2. Figure out what our plan going forward needs to be and why.
3. Possibly set up multiple proposals and models because that way there might be one that's more acceptable to everyone.
4. Figure out a series of epic write ins.
5. Bribe RNJesus repeatedly and well.
6. Kiss our butts good bye just to be safe.
some things I think we need to do:
1. Sort out what everyone wants, this includes Kelbor, Mortarion, most of the other primarchs we can talk to, and if possible get a hold of an alpha legionnaire to get an idea of what emps and malcador want aside from people to stop questioning them/digging into their closet skeletons.
2. Figure out what our plan going forward needs to be and why.
3. Possibly set up multiple proposals and models because that way there might be one that's more acceptable to everyone.
4. Figure out a series of epic write ins.
5. Bribe RNJesus repeatedly and well.
6. Kiss our butts good bye just to be safe.
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1 to 5 sounds good to me.
6 requires some contortionism that Kesar isn't capable of.
In all seriousness, I agree with the arguments in favor of tackling the outside threat orks vs. khorne. What's going on with Orks and Khorne is the bigger threat even if the Civil War is the immediate threat. Lets use that to try to do what we can to prevent if and lean neutral while kicking the arse of something with our anger.
I wonder though, instead of letting this probablem grow bigger and bigger. Would it be better to pop the bubble of chaos/ork growth? Can it be popped or slowed and if so how?
I'd propose something like this...
[ ] Civil war may seem inevitable, but those here must make every effort to avoid it if possible, and mitigate the damage done if it does come to that - external threats to humanity still exist, and it is not just the Archdaemons that are of concern. How would humanity fare if the Blood and Thunder War ended in the favor of the Orks, should the Imperium have expended its strength tearing itself apart? What other horrors of the Age of Strife are gaining strength by the day, and will be that much stronger because civil war delayed humanity from dealing with them? Diplomacy must be attempted. It might fail, but even so, a peaceful solution must be considered. If nothing else, it will make your side seem more reasonable for having made the attempt.
-[ ] Come up with a list of demands/proposals and arguments in their favor. Determine what points we can't bend on, what points we can make compromises and concessions on, and what Malcador and the Emperor might negotiate for in return. The more scenarios considered, the better. Kesar will volunteer to act as the diplomat to present these and work out a possible compromise with Malcador.
-[ ] If diplomacy breaks down, then planning for this civil war must involve damage mitigation strategies. The stronger humanity stands at the end, the better.
[ ] Civil war may seem inevitable, but those here must make every effort to avoid it if possible, and mitigate the damage done if it does come to that - external threats to humanity still exist, and it is not just the Archdaemons that are of concern. How would humanity fare if the Blood and Thunder War ended in the favor of the Orks, should the Imperium have expended its strength tearing itself apart? What other horrors of the Age of Strife are gaining strength by the day, and will be that much stronger because civil war delayed humanity from dealing with them? Diplomacy must be attempted. It might fail, but even so, a peaceful solution must be considered. If nothing else, it will make your side seem more reasonable for having made the attempt.
-[ ] Come up with a list of demands/proposals and arguments in their favor. Determine what points we can't bend on, what points we can make compromises and concessions on, and what Malcador and the Emperor might negotiate for in return. The more scenarios considered, the better. Kesar will volunteer to act as the diplomat to present these and work out a possible compromise with Malcador.
-[ ] If diplomacy breaks down, then planning for this civil war must involve damage mitigation strategies. The stronger humanity stands at the end, the better.
- Location
- Denton, Texas
A valid write in if Kesar wasn't already very anxious about war to begin with.
I would add an addendum of having each party explain what the Imperium gain or personally gain before everyone here. We are adults, we know we do things for selfish reasons even if we are a Boy Scout. If we are to commit treason then everyone here must be laid bare with nothing hidden nor any secrets.
If Kelbor has been futzing with demon tech, then he airs it now in front his conspirators.
If Horus has no clue about the whole "there are actually DEMONS" thing and he is supposed to be the Warmaster of the whole imperium, then he needs to be read in top to bottom.
If Lorgar walks into the negotiating table as anything less than a prisoner being sentanced to death, than Kesar is out.
This kind of shit needs to be aired out and everyone will have to play secret keeper for everyone here because they will all effectively be writing the new world order, and nobody likes a last minute "AHA I HAVE BEEN EVIL THIS WHOLE TIME MEUAHHAHAHA" shtick.
Yes the best thing to do now is to make sure it this doesn't get worse
- Location
- United states
The more I think about it the biggest issue i'm seeing is that a lot of people in-universe and out are pushing towards certain ideals because of the merit of them sounding good on paper while failing to take into account that the reality would be different and deviate from assumptions. For example:
Then there was Lorgar, and yeah while it was Lorgar him not having any information on Chaos made it extremely easy for him to be corrupted by Chaos agents. Which brings us to the banning of religion thing. While it sounds good on paper it's outright canon that existing religion can actually be extremely helpful against corruption since a person who is already following a religion is less likely to fall for Chaos' lies and rebuff them depending on said religion while also starving the Chaos gods of faith.
In fact it would be a lot more practical to just either support religions whose teaching are counter to Chaos and thus extremely resistant to being messed with by Chaos and/or just modifying religions to be so. We have seen this with the Cult to Kesar which actually gives people CR.
This also gives another example of the Emperor bias blinding him to other solutions. Again to use Lorgar as an example it would have been a lot more practical to just say convince him to join another religion that was outright counter to Chaos along with being peaceful and tolerant. Hell, if Emps was truly practical he could have pointed him to the Mechanicus which honestly could have solved a lot of problems once you think about it. Another point against Emps 'not needing' his humanity.
The way I see it despite the risks the rest of Chaos stands to gain from the BTW ending soon. If the Orks win then they will launch an invasion into the Materium which would not only drastically weaken the Imperium but potentially kill off at least some of the Primarchs. If Khorne wins even if he becomes more powerful himself Chaos as a whole gets a giant boost and buffer against the sane forces.
While the idea to keep any information on Chaos to as little people as possible seems like a good idea on paper in practice it leads to a ton of issues. Main one being that it makes it a lot easier for people to be unknowingly corrupted trying to research them. Something that could have happened to Horus since it's been confirmed that if Kesar didn't meet with him he would have tried to research Chaos on his own.
Then there was Lorgar, and yeah while it was Lorgar him not having any information on Chaos made it extremely easy for him to be corrupted by Chaos agents. Which brings us to the banning of religion thing. While it sounds good on paper it's outright canon that existing religion can actually be extremely helpful against corruption since a person who is already following a religion is less likely to fall for Chaos' lies and rebuff them depending on said religion while also starving the Chaos gods of faith.
In fact it would be a lot more practical to just either support religions whose teaching are counter to Chaos and thus extremely resistant to being messed with by Chaos and/or just modifying religions to be so. We have seen this with the Cult to Kesar which actually gives people CR.
This also gives another example of the Emperor bias blinding him to other solutions. Again to use Lorgar as an example it would have been a lot more practical to just say convince him to join another religion that was outright counter to Chaos along with being peaceful and tolerant. Hell, if Emps was truly practical he could have pointed him to the Mechanicus which honestly could have solved a lot of problems once you think about it. Another point against Emps 'not needing' his humanity.
Not exactly true, Kelbor does have legit beef with the Emperor and has expressed at the very start that he didn't even believe him to be the Omnissiah. This on top of Emps control freak tendencies, even if Emps does mean well, and forcing people to join the Imperium. Not to say that Kelbor isn't self interested but he does legit want what's best for the Mechinacus as a whole
IIRC Horus himself got a far more better picture recently and just informed Emps with a letter. So think that it's reasonable to believe that Kelbot and the others aren't up to date on the new information on the BTW.
Something to take into account that it seems like we may need to worry about the rest of Chaos getting involved. Because due to our actions Chaos is not only weakened but getting weaker over time if Kesar and the Wardens along with the rest of the Imperium keep things up. Them getting involved may be a desperation move.
The way I see it despite the risks the rest of Chaos stands to gain from the BTW ending soon. If the Orks win then they will launch an invasion into the Materium which would not only drastically weaken the Imperium but potentially kill off at least some of the Primarchs. If Khorne wins even if he becomes more powerful himself Chaos as a whole gets a giant boost and buffer against the sane forces.
- Location
- Elsewhere
This is a valid write-in, it'd basically shift this towards being some kind of declaration akin to the 95 theses. Essentially trying to get the other Primarchs and Kelbor to agree to pursue a diplomatic solution and if that fails, only then would they suggest civil war.
At this point I'd still suggest bringing in other people involved in Imperial governance since this basically pertains to the future of the nation.
Might not be a bad idea, but I'd be wary of too many cooks in the kitchen. There are going to be a lot of people who want a lot of things, and some of those are going to be contradictory. Whatever we put forward needs to be consistent with itself, and if we end up having to exclude some must-haves for some people or importance that got brought in to do that it could explode in our face.
Emps seems to go for the awesome but impractical solution of the imperial truth instead of the more boring but practical one of religions
If we had to do a rule of three, as in three people that must show up but still fit this profile, who would that be? @Daemon Hunter
- Location
- Elsewhere
If you want the full spread of ideas, you'd need more than that, but for a rule of three, I would say Kelbor, Mortarion, and Kesar or Horus. At least if I'm reading this question right.
I'm asking in terms of people outside the Primarchs and Kelbor, like from a branch of the government.
- Location
- Elsewhere
Ah, in that case you'd want Aldritch, a key member of the Administratum, and the head of the Astra Telepathica. Which would be rather messy.
- Location
- Castlevania
Tzeentch is loving this.
Just on getting them over to Mars and staying long enough?
- Location
- Elsewhere
That and the fact that Mortarion and Kelbor would have serious issues with just inviting those three. Mainly as Malcador does have a high degree of influence over them, as well as Kelbor pointing out that Aldritch does not trust him at all.
The amount of bullshit involving the politicking taking place in the Imperium is another reminder that if we don't keep the regular humans in mind, neither side in this conflict is going to make much progress.
- Location
- colombia
ill be honest,i dont think malcador and emps have it in them to make the right choices long terms
there will be always corners to cut and some plot to achieve,some more territory to expand into,some foe to defeat
and neither of them will be willing to become figureheads or law down
even if we convince kerbor hal to not go into civil war,is only delaying the inevitable
how long untill the navy,the army,or just the people itself rise up?
there is only so much over-extension that the imperium can take combined with is utterly shithole living conditions,its religious persecutions and its mass genocides before everyone and their grandma give themselves to chaos and march into the emperor palace
i'l vote for the diplomacy option out of moral standards,but i dont think it will lead to anything
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I think to some extent that's going to be difficult because none of the people actually in positions of power are 'normal' humans. Even the ones that are unaltered humans will be in the top percentage of wealth and influence, and aren't going to see things like the common guardsman will.
That doesn't mean we can't consider them, though. Vulkan's reforms need to be considered as part of what we want to present as part of our demands.
It might not, but doing it just to be the side that appears reasonable is a good enough reason from a practical standpoint to do it.
And yeah, I don't think the Emperor or Malcador will be willing to step down. As such, we don't make that kind of demand. We want the Emperor to fix his soul and humanity, at least as much as he can, but barring that we need a system of checks and balances. If the Emperor cannot be removed or fixed, there needs to be a system in place to hold him accountable and veto anything that looks like a bad judgment call.
Another thing we might have to suggest is... well, frankly, pausing the Great Crusade. Or at the very least greatly slowing it down for a while. The Imperium's foundations are clearly rotting, the army is sick of being thrown into an endless meat grinder for a system that doesn't seem to actually be improving humanity's lot for reasons that aren't really relevant to them, and if we're just adding more and more territory without addressing those issues, then it's all but guaranteed to collapse in on itself somehow. Taking even a decade to settle internal matters down and shore up the foundations of the Imperium could do wonders.
Haha I saw this update and I just didn't want to read it since I knew it would be about the civil war. It is a bit stressful reading about how close to civil war a lot of people are feeling. I am sure the questers will try their best and a narrow path might be walked where civil war is avoided.
Oh, voting is open. But no one has a plan available at the moment.
@Daemon Hunter How is this for a plan?
[] Plan: 95 Theses (With Enjou write in)
-[] Too many Primarchs aren't here; we need to get their thoughts on the matter. Invite a few of the Primarchs Kesar could trust to stay quiet on this for a discussion as soon as possible.
--[ ] Civil war may seem inevitable, but those here must make every effort to avoid it if possible, and mitigate the damage done if it does come to that - external threats to humanity still exist, and it is not just the Archdaemons that are of concern. How would humanity fare if the Blood and Thunder War ended in the favor of the Orks, should the Imperium have expended its strength tearing itself apart? What other horrors of the Age of Strife are gaining strength by the day, and will be that much stronger because civil war delayed humanity from dealing with them? Diplomacy must be attempted. It might fail, but even so, a peaceful solution must be considered. If nothing else, it will make your side seem more reasonable for having made the attempt.
---[ ] Come up with a list of demands/proposals and arguments in their favor. Determine what points we can't bend on, what points we can make compromises and concessions on, and what Malcador and the Emperor might negotiate for in return. The more scenarios considered, the better. Kesar will volunteer to act as the diplomat to present these and work out a possible compromise with Malcador.
----[ ] If diplomacy breaks down, then planning for this civil war must involve damage mitigation strategies. The stronger humanity stands at the end, the better.
Additionally, anyone want to add or subtract anything from this?
@Daemon Hunter How is this for a plan?
[] Plan: 95 Theses (With Enjou write in)
-[] Too many Primarchs aren't here; we need to get their thoughts on the matter. Invite a few of the Primarchs Kesar could trust to stay quiet on this for a discussion as soon as possible.
--[ ] Civil war may seem inevitable, but those here must make every effort to avoid it if possible, and mitigate the damage done if it does come to that - external threats to humanity still exist, and it is not just the Archdaemons that are of concern. How would humanity fare if the Blood and Thunder War ended in the favor of the Orks, should the Imperium have expended its strength tearing itself apart? What other horrors of the Age of Strife are gaining strength by the day, and will be that much stronger because civil war delayed humanity from dealing with them? Diplomacy must be attempted. It might fail, but even so, a peaceful solution must be considered. If nothing else, it will make your side seem more reasonable for having made the attempt.
---[ ] Come up with a list of demands/proposals and arguments in their favor. Determine what points we can't bend on, what points we can make compromises and concessions on, and what Malcador and the Emperor might negotiate for in return. The more scenarios considered, the better. Kesar will volunteer to act as the diplomat to present these and work out a possible compromise with Malcador.
----[ ] If diplomacy breaks down, then planning for this civil war must involve damage mitigation strategies. The stronger humanity stands at the end, the better.
Additionally, anyone want to add or subtract anything from this?