The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up

[random_npc]

Trelleborg armerment analysis.

With the creation of the new Trelleborg class starfot, and its multi-use hardpoints, the debate over how to configure the hardpoints has become fierce. This has not been helped by the three radically different performance profiles of the three options. To reiterate, each of the four hard points can mount either a pair of Nova cannons, Spinal Accelerators or a single Ragnarok Cannon. At present, doctrine calls for the Nova cannons to be supplied with vortex munitions, to counteract their lackluster ability to overcome armor.

To assist in comparing the weapons, I have prepared a table below, listing the calculated damage output in the standard notation. While this is, of course, an extreme abstraction, it serves as a useful point of comparison.

range	2 NC (pen 18)​	2 SA (pen 18)​	RC (pen 12)​
short	64.8​	11.4​	68.4​
mid	72​	12​	72​
long	64.8​	11.4​	57.6​
extreme	43.2​	7.2​	25.2​

At first glance, a pair of nova cannons appear to be the best choice. Outperforming the other two options in almost all range brackets. This, however, is somewhat misleading. While Nova cannons are quite damaging weapons, they are poorly suited to engaging specific sections of the enemy line of battle. As such most of their damage is expended on enemy escort screens. While destroying enamy escorts is of course still of some use, in general, it is considered a waste to use spinally mounted weapons to do so. As they tend to lack the raw damage needed to swiftly degrade escort screens, in the numbers they can be deployed in. Listed below are the damage done to the components of the enemy fleet

escorts

range	2 NC (pen 18)​	2 SA (pen 18)​	RC (pen 12)​
short	45.36​	0​	18.468​
mid	50.4​	0​	19.44​
long	45.36​	0​	15.552​
extreme	30.24​	0​	6.804​

Cruisers

range	2 NC (pen 18)​	2 SA (pen 18)​	RC (pen 12)​
short	12.96​	1.14​	18.468​
mid	14.4​	1.2​	19.44​
long	12.96​	1.14​	15.552​
extreme	8.64​	0.72​	6.804​

Battleships

range	2 NC (pen 18)​	2 SA (pen 18)​	RC (pen 12)​
short	5.184​	2.85​	18.468​
mid	5.76​	3​	19.44​
long	5.184​	2.85​	15.552​
extreme	3.456​	1.8​	6.804​

Dreadnaughts

range	2 NC (pen 18)​	2 SA (pen 18)​	RC (pen 12)​
short	1.296​	7.41​	12.996​
mid	1.44​	7.8​	13.68​
long	1.296​	7.41​	10.944​
extreme	0.864​	4.68​	4.788​

In most cases, elimination of an entire weight class from the enemies order of battle does not happen until the closing stages, with the occasional exception of the elimination of enamy super capitals.* which loadout is ideal changes depending on the composition of the enamy forces. To counter typical high armor super capitals, Spinal accelerators are ideal, as their superior armor penetration sees them edge out Ragnorick cannons. In cases where it is believed the enamy escort screen can be eliminated, swiftly, or the enamy cruisers are considered high priority, nova cannons should be employed. In a typical situation where the enamy lacks super caps, Ragnarok cannons are ideal.

While Ragnarok cannons lack the high penetration of either spinal accelerators or nova cannon scale vortex weaponry, they are the most balanced weapon. Known for their ability to target the enamy line of battle in a fairly uniform manner. This leaves them effective, if not ideal, in almost all situations.

Against Tyranids, between their lack of heavy armor, and top-heavy fleet structure, it is my opinion that Ragnarok cannons are by far the best choice. As hive ships lack the extreme armor of typical command battleships, spinal accelerators would be an extremely inefficient weapon against them. In addition, the difficulty of targeting trynnids at longer ranges makes the reduced accuracy at long range of the Ragnarok cannon somewhat moot.

Against orks, once more the Ragnarok cannon is once more the ideal choice. The core of the orkish fleet is their space hulks, and the Ragnarok cannon is the ideal weapon for engaging such ships. Furthermore, its penetration against all known classes of orkish ships is at least acceptable.

Nova cannons and Spinal accelerators are at present, unlikely to be of much use against the local xeno threats. However, against the more varied fleet compositions of the various chaos powers, they are likely to see some use. It is my suggestion that Ragnarok cannons be equipped by default, with the weapons swapped to counter specific enamy fleet compositions.


*save against orks, in which case super caps are almost always the last to fall.


@Durin I threw some math at the Trelleborgs possible loadouts.

 

[random_npc]

I will be providing some basic mechanics in the next thread but never give to many details. In part due to whenever I give details people complain of headaches and too many formulas

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eh I find it fairly easy to grasp at least the basics. sure I have to eyeball the armor equation, but I can usually get a rough feel for it. Even skill multipliers fairly simple once you know how it works.

 

[inverted_helix]

While Nova cannons are quite damaging weapons, they are poorly suited to engaging specific sections of the enemy line of battle. As such most of their damage is expended on enemy escort screens.

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This is and isn't accurate. The amount of fire a weapon directs at a specific class is not fixed battle to battle. Increased armor pen from using vortex rounds means that the Nova Cannons will be aimed more at heavier units than they normally would be. Nova cannons will have more 'wasted' on escorts than the other alternatives, but not as much as the normal numbers suggest.

Listed below are the damage done to the components of the enemy fleet

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What armor did you take for each of these? Seems like you just did it pre-armor?

In most cases, elimination of an entire weight class from the enemies order of battle does not happen until the closing stages, with the exception of the elimination of enamy super capitals.*
---
*save against orks, in which case super caps are often the last to fall.

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Chaos hyper-capitals tend to have super heavy armor which makes them last a long time. Orks hulks have huge HP pools which makes them last a long time. Both sides have them tend to last quite well unless we've got specific anti hyper-capital weapons fielded against them. (The Heavy Accelerator on the Vajra, or the Thermal Lances on the Einherjar make short work of heavily armored hyper capitals, while a ton of Ragnarok or Nova Cannons can make short work of hulks.)


Overall I do think the Ragnarok cannons the best load out, but for a different reason. The Nova Cannons with vortex munitions are better than the Ragnarok, but vortex munitions cost us actual actions to produce, and we'd burn through them in a pretty big hurry with 8 guns firing them off.

 

[random_npc]

This is and isn't accurate. The amount of fire a weapon directs at a specific class is not fixed battle to battle. Increased armor pen from using vortex rounds means that the Nova Cannons will be aimed more at heavier units than they normally would be. Nova cannons will have more 'wasted' on escorts than the other alternatives, but not as much as the normal numbers suggest.

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I'm not so sure about that. you likely can modify it somewhat, I rather doubt you can massively change it. If that's wrong, then that does change the math. But given that some weapons have the specific advantage of a specific targeting profile, I'm assuming you can only rejigger it so much.

What armor did you take for each of these? Seems like you just did it pre-armor?

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yeah, I just did base damage, since its mostly a point of rough comparison.

Chaos hyper-capitals tend to have super heavy armor which makes them last a long time. Orks hulks have huge HP pools which makes them last a long time. Both sides have them tend to last quite well unless we've got specific anti hyper-capital weapons fielded against them. (The Heavy Accelerator on the Vajra, or the Thermal Lances on the Einherjar make short work of heavily armored hyper capitals, while a ton of Ragnarok or Nova Cannons can make short work of hulks.)

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and there is usually very small number of hyper caps. so its about the one weight calss where the presence of specialized weapons could lead to it being wiped out early in the fight.

 

[inverted_helix]

I'm not so sure about that. you likely can modify it somewhat, I rather doubt you can massively change it. I'm assuming you can't do massive changes.

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The biggest shift I have recorded is BB(M) macro cannons going from 54% aimed at escorts to 26%. Most shifts are actually pretty minor. However that shows the maximum change is pretty big, with a reduction of slightly over half.

and there is usually very small number of hyper caps. so its about the one weight calss where the presence of specialized weapons could lead to it being wiped out early in the fight.

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Sadly we don't have nearly enough of those specialized weapons to deal with the Tyranid hyper-capital threat.

 

[Durin]

This is and isn't accurate. The amount of fire a weapon directs at a specific class is not fixed battle to battle. Increased armor pen from using vortex rounds means that the Nova Cannons will be aimed more at heavier units than they normally would be. Nova cannons will have more 'wasted' on escorts than the other alternatives, but not as much as the normal numbers suggest.


What armor did you take for each of these? Seems like you just did it pre-armor?

Chaos hyper-capitals tend to have super heavy armor which makes them last a long time. Orks hulks have huge HP pools which makes them last a long time. Both sides have them tend to last quite well unless we've got specific anti hyper-capital weapons fielded against them. (The Heavy Accelerator on the Vajra, or the Thermal Lances on the Einherjar make short work of heavily armored hyper capitals, while a ton of Ragnarok or Nova Cannons can make short work of hulks.)


Overall I do think the Ragnarok cannons the best load out, but for a different reason. The Nova Cannons with vortex munitions are better than the Ragnarok, but vortex munitions cost us actual actions to produce, and we'd burn through them in a pretty big hurry with 8 guns firing them off.

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in the case of Nova and Ragnarok the escort hits represents their AOE, so is unlikely to go away

 

[inverted_helix]

in the case of Nova and Ragnarok the escort hits represents their AOE, so is unlikely to go away

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@Durin Why does the Ragnarok not suffer nearly as much from wasting fire on escorts then?

Admittedly with standard 8 pen, the Nova Cannons might be of most benefit aimed at clusters of cruisers or if there's a lot of them clumped up escorts, but with vortex +10 pen they'd be much better aimed at bigger ships and just take whatever the splash hits.

 

[random_npc]

Sadly we don't have nearly enough of those specialized weapons to deal with the Tyranid hyper-capital threat.

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also, our anti Hyper cap stuff is actually not great against them. It's mostly low damage high Pen. With the exception of the Heavy Accelerator, and bio ships seem to be low armor high hp. Ragnarok cannons really do seem to be the best big bug hunting gun we have.

 

[inverted_helix]

also, our anti Hyper cap stuff is actually not great against them. It's mostly low damage high Pen. With the exception of the Heavy Accelerator, and bio ships seem to be low armor high hp. Ragnarok cannons really do seem to be the best big bug hunting gun we have.

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We've been assuming that since they were optimized against Necrons who have extremely high penetration weapons, however we still haven't gotten the stat blocks for the tyranid ships. I'm beginning to think that we're never going to get them.

So I suppose really I can't make any argument based on the tyranid fleet composition because I don't have those numbers to crunch the math on.

 

[random_npc]

We've been assuming that since they were optimized against Necrons who have extremely high penetration weapons, however we still haven't gotten the stat blocks for the tyranid ships. I'm beginning to think that we're never going to get them.

So I suppose really I can't make any argument based on the tyranid fleet composition because I don't have those numbers to crunch the math on.

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we've been told they are low armor, and that vortex weaponry gave a small boost. If pen +10 didn't give macro cannons a massive jump, then we can assume that even macro cannons are not seeing a lot of mitigation. so that means very low armor. That they are apparently effective, to me mans very high HP.

 

[Durin]

I can confirm that the Tyranids have high pen and low armour for their size but strong sheilds and quite a lot of HP
also high skill multiplier

 

[Shard]

I can confirm that the Tyranids have high pen and low armour for their size but strong sheilds and quite a lot of HP
also high skill multiplier

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So the counter to this is...

...Basically Orks.

=_=

 

[Durin]

So the counter to this is...

...Basically Orks.

=_=

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Actually now I think about it.

 

[random_npc]

Volkite collider

When the trust was given the secrets of Volkite weapons, it was found there was a gap in the weapons line. No weapon between heavy and ordinance existed. This was cause for concern, as the weight bracket known as very heavy is often the one most suited for engaging large numbers of weaker targets. Upon examination, it soon became clear why. The effect utilized by Volkite has difficulty propagating below the power level used by the Demi-Culverin. A very heavy variant would be either incredibly short ranged, or far less efficient than a pair of Culverins.

For a time these issues proved intractable, however, first Artisan Granalf himself found a partial solution while crafting a potent relic. It was possible by tuning the emitter, to braid the energies of the shot, compressing it to increase its energy density and thus range. However, while this allowed the range to increase, the tightly bound effect would be far less efficient. Lossing far to much killing power due to the reduced area of effect. While it was possible for an immensely skilled user to compensate for this, or even take advantage of it, such applications were unsuitable for use by common soldiers.

The final breakthrough was made by a Muspelheim Thane. By unearthing ancient lore about how the energies of Volkite weapons interact, he was able to devise a way to compensate. By braiding two beams using opposing charges, it is possible to induce a massive explosion when they converge. Thus was born the Volkite collider. A two barreled weapons fire a positively and negatively charged Volkite beam, set to collide at a specific point. Upon collision, both beams violently unravel, releasing a massive energy pulse, well in excess of a Volkite Culverin.

The Volkite collider is an interesting weapon, being something of a Volkites Volkite. The unique delivery method allows for a large area of effect at the significant range, however, the methods also defusing the energy somewhat. This results in a reduction in its ability to penetrate armor, but an increase in its killing power. This is considered an acceptable tradeoff, as the weapon is intended to quickly and efficiently eradicate hordes of ork boyz and other poorly armored troops.

@Durin speaking or orks, he'rs a gun to kill them with.

 

[Reynal]

Orks are probably a decent enough counter to this Nid fleet comp, but they might run into issues with their non-Hulks getting shredded and the Nid stealth being good enough to trouble them when they lack the Waaagh power to just punch through. They'd have a miserable time against the metal Nids if I imagine correctly, though, as they aren't likely to have high enough pen to do more than chip damage .

 

[random_npc]

Orks are probably a decent enough counter to this Nid fleet comp, but they might run into issues with their non-Hulks getting shredded and the Nid stealth being good enough to trouble them when they lack the Waaagh power to just punch through. They'd have a miserable time against the metal Nids if I imagine correctly, though, as they aren't likely to have high enough pen to do more than chip damage .

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actually, nids might have a solid counter to hulks. bording. they are utter terrors in those kinds of passageways and likely have experience boarding megastructures. their counter to big hulks might just be a swarm of those boarding escorts and a few well screened troop ships.

 

[inverted_helix]

Orks are probably a decent enough counter to this Nid fleet comp, but they might run into issues with their non-Hulks getting shredded and the Nid stealth being good enough to trouble them when they lack the Waaagh power to just punch through. They'd have a miserable time against the metal Nids if I imagine correctly, though, as they aren't likely to have high enough pen to do more than chip damage .

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I didn't really think stealth worked against orks? They don't really use conventional tech to do things anyway.

actually, nids might have a solid counter to hulks. bording. they are utter terrors in those kinds of passageways and likely have experience boarding megastructures. their counter to big hulks might just be a swarm of those boarding escorts and a few well screened troop ships.

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Eh it would probably be useful, but big hulks have tens of billions of orks onboard, and they're pretty good at melee fights too. Tyranids are better, but the new tyranids have that unit cap to deal with, and big hulks are so big it could take months for them to fight their way through the tens of billions of orks. So I think it would really only do damage, not take them out on a combat time scale.

 

[random_npc]

Eh it would probably be useful, but big hulks have tens of billions of orks onboard, and they're pretty good at melee fights too. Tyranids are better, but the new tyranids have that unit cap to deal with, and big hulks are so big it could take months for them to fight their way through the tens of billions of orks. So I think it would really only do damage, not take them out on a combat time scale.

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possibly, but if they only need to say, sweep gun batteries to knock it out, that might work.

 

[Chlof]

Cultists are still spiking. How long should we let that go on before worrying about it?

 

[Reynal]

Cultists are still spiking. How long should we let that go on before worrying about it?

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Time to begin to worry a bit, but likely indicative of galactic Chaos activity surge rather than something targeted if the numbers are evenishly distributed among gods.

 

[sabreFather]

Except that when we asked Durin he said the cultists skewed towards Nurgle.

 

[Doomed Wombat]

Except that when we asked Durin he said the cultists skewed towards Nurgle.

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Dunno if that's shifted TBF.

 

[Doomed Wombat]

Guys BTW we've gotten the numbers for the Black Imperium task force in the Discord

1. around 150 Battlefleets strong, hundreds of billions of soldiers including tens of thousands of Chaos Space Marines. a large number of the forces are Black legion Regulars so very disciplined by Chaos standards


HOLY SHIT!

 

[Dark as Silver]

2. yes

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Guys BTW we've gotten the numbers for the Black Imperium task force in the Discord

1. around 150 Battlefleets strong, hundreds of billions of soldiers including tens of thousands of Chaos Space Marines. a large number of the forces are Black legion Regulars so very disciplined by Chaos standards


HOLY SHIT!

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Did this Hive fleet piss off someone in particular or are they doing this for all of them?
Holy fuck I guess we know what the end boss of phase one of Durins plan is.

 

[Doomed Wombat]

Did this Hive fleet piss off someone in particular or are they doing this for all of them?
Holy fuck I guess we know what the end boss of phase one of Durins plan is.

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No, that's the amount of force the largest polity in the galaxy can throw around on the casual after just finishing up a battle with a tier 4 waaaargh.