The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up

Investigate the Sea?

  • Yes

    Votes: 593 80.4%
  • No

    Votes: 145 19.6%

  • Total voters
    738
For the trade deal I think it might make sense to go on the heavy side.

As far as costs go, outside of selling food the upkeep prices are pretty cheap all things considered compared to our overall economy. Something for (practically) nothing is a good deal, and the fact that we can get an even better deal later doesn't mean making a good deal isn't worth it now.

Also, some highly profitable trading for both sides could prove a real incentive for peace. Not a game-changer, perhaps, but enough that they might value our relationship a bit more. And given just how long the conflict has been I'll take any incidental pro-peace thing I can get.
 
Hope we don't need to pay for another round of weapon runes now. Stacking buffs is all well and good but stacking costs will get painful.

So basically we want all the breeding populations and all the non-artefact weapons/shield.
We explicitly don't want the spiders because it screws with our troops' morale.
 
We explicitly don't want the spiders because it screws with our troops' morale.
We do want the spiders since they can still be deployed solo as basically knight/scout titan units. That and we don't know how big the morale hit is or if the massive boon of having them present doesn't outweigh the morale malus which is honestly pretty likely.
 
I think the best we are getting is horrible death spiders that only the insane work with.

You know sometimes I honestly wonder how a modern psychiatrist would react to the black irons on both a personal level and the fact that a unit like this was ever set up?
 
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We might be able to have non-Avernites be the primary spider-handlers in the Trust. Jotunheim might be a good fit, both psychologically and given their military role/specialization.
 
With the information that these are payments in perpetuity I'm going to say that I don't want to trade anything as well.

At that point we're essentially agreeing to pay an infinite amount for a finite amount of goods. That's not a fair trade no matter how you slice it.

Even breeding populations of animals are a finite cost on their end. They aren't agreeing to give us a steady supply of more, we'd have to set up our own breeding operations to produce more. Losing a breeding population is just not a realistic scenario, and even if it happened you'd normally just buy another, not agree to pay infinite amounts for automatic replacement.

3.9 billion metal is equivalent to a bit over 2% of our net production even before trade, this is not a trivial amount. Our reserve is essentially irrelevant because this is a perpetual drain on our supply, not a temporary one. At some point hundreds of years from now we're going to be missing the huge amount of resources flowing to them in perpetuity that we could have done other things with.
 
finite amount of goods.
Again infinite amount of goods, they're trading everything in perpetuity as well as we are it wouldn't be fair otherwise, so they're going to keep our beasties topped up, teach us how to use them as well as give us new weapons for when we expand organisations that are given weapons ect. the only exception is for the artifacts which are one off things, but given how rare and powerful even low level artifacts are (Surtbrander is the level of artifact we're looking at) that's a really good deal.
 
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Again infinite amount of goods, they're trading everything in perpetuity as well as we are it wouldn't be fair otherwise, so they're going to keep our beasties topped up, teach us how to use them as well as give us new weapons for when we expand organisations that are given weapons ect. the only exception is for the artifacts which are one off things, but given how rare and powerful even low level artifacts are (Surtbrander is the level of artifact we're looking at) that's a really good deal.
That isn't really an infinite amount of goods, particularly the beasts. With breeding pops they sell us a supply of them, and then we're in charge of producing them at our own cost. It's not that realistic to expect we're going to need the breeding supply replaced. Teaching how to use them is a one time thing as well unless such a large portion of our society is destroyed that records are lost.

Their weapons are adamantine so they're probably recoverable from our dead and won't need replacement anyway. Meanwhile we're providing them a steady supply of weapons whether we're getting none or a thousand from them. Also their weapons are probably not that impressive anyways because if they were then they wouldn't be interested in Tau weapons. Over time they're probably going to be phasing out their current weapons for gradually enhanced Tau weapons, at which point they'll just be paying us in the surplus gear they phased out for what we're paying them.
 
That isn't really an infinite amount of goods, particularly the beasts. With breeding pops they sell us a supply of them, and then we're in charge of producing them at our own cost. It's not that realistic to expect we're going to need the breeding supply replaced. Teaching how to use them is a one time thing as well unless such a large portion of our society is destroyed that records are lost.

Their weapons are adamantine so they're probably recoverable from our dead and won't need replacement anyway. Meanwhile we're providing them a steady supply of weapons whether we're getting none or a thousand from them. Also their weapons are probably not that impressive anyways because if they were then they wouldn't be interested in Tau weapons. Over time they're probably going to be phasing out their current weapons for gradually enhanced Tau weapons, at which point they'll just be paying us in the surplus gear they phased out for what we're paying them.

Their weapons improve over time via psykery, but I suspect the base is part of that equation. Therefore, an extra +10 or +20 to their basic, brand-new stuff is worthwhile to them.

I believe Wombat noted that 200 years from now we'll be buying that stuff back as relics.
 
Benefit in perpetuity for benefit in perpetuity, seems fairly balanced to me. Given that we're also trading fixed resource numbers income growth is going to trivialize the costs even further as time goes on.
 
That isn't really an infinite amount of goods, particularly the beasts. With breeding pops they sell us a supply of them, and then we're in charge of producing them at our own cost. It's not that realistic to expect we're going to need the breeding supply replaced. Teaching how to use them is a one time thing as well unless such a large portion of our society is destroyed that records are lost.

Their weapons are adamantine so they're probably recoverable from our dead and won't need replacement anyway. Meanwhile we're providing them a steady supply of weapons whether we're getting none or a thousand from them. Also their weapons are probably not that impressive anyways because if they were then they wouldn't be interested in Tau weapons. Over time they're probably going to be phasing out their current weapons for gradually enhanced Tau weapons, at which point they'll just be paying us in the surplus gear they phased out for what we're paying them.
Given that we're transplanting them into a new enviroment alone I'd say we're going to need quite a few tries to get a proper breeding population up, to say nothing of the fact there are hundreds of uses to the bees alone and dozens of skills that need to be learned.

And of course the new Legio Helheim is going to be taking casulties we're going to want to replace as well.

So? They're impossibly tough, but lower level relics do get destroyed, especially since we're likely going to be against alpha psykers with them, and not mere thousands tens of thousands even hundreds of thousands if we want to go for them.

They're weapons are incredibly impressive, they're relics warp enhanced nonsense that astartes chapters wish they could have, but only the oldest are lucky to have more than a handful, they're meant to be impossibly rare and the Saurus are handing them out like literal candy, the fact we're so eager to buy them should be indicative of how valuable they are.

No it means they want additional options, they don't have guns so they want guns to provide new ranged options for example. After all, it doesn't matter what level of tech weapon they have, they're equally deadly in the hands of the Saurus because of their abilities. Could be a literal rock give it enough time and it'd destroy power swords.

In other words they're not going to be phasing out their current weapons, they're just supplimenting their arsenal.

Their weapons improve over time via psykery, but I suspect the base is part of that equation. Therefore, an extra +10 or +20 to their basic, brand-new stuff is worthwhile to them.

I believe Wombat noted that 200 years from now we'll be buying that stuff back as relics.
Relics, so not really.

For them the basic isn't going to change the effectiveness of their weapons after a point, its just to give them addititional options.

But, yeah they're also a long term investment, since we can buy back super powered pulse rifles later on.
 
Troops that are deployed with them.

We don't have to deploy troops with them.
Very curious as to how you intend to make use of a unit that MUST be deployed completely unsupported.
Even giving them all to the Trust Guard is risky as we often fight alongside them.

We do want the spiders since they can still be deployed solo as basically knight/scout titan units. That and we don't know how big the morale hit is or if the massive boon of having them present doesn't outweigh the morale malus which is honestly pretty likely.
I strongly believe that you are Drastically underestimating how inclusive 'deployed with' is going to be. As far as Avernites are concerned spiders, of any kind, are the worst thing in existence. The majority of Avernites that fall to chaos do so for the promise of being protected from spiders. The Spiderbane Dragonfly replaced the Imperial Eagle in Avernite artwork. Being on the same battlefield as these giant unholy abominations and not shooting them is going to horrifically disturb our troops.

It might be possible to use them productively. However I see no reason to waste the time and effort trying when we can just use anything else and not have to deal with such problems.
 
With the information that these are payments in perpetuity I'm going to say that I don't want to trade anything as well.

At that point we're essentially agreeing to pay an infinite amount for a finite amount of goods. That's not a fair trade no matter how you slice it.

from a mechanical perspective, its essentially upkeep. No different from any other upgrade that has an upkeep increase.
 
Very curious as to how you intend to make use of a unit that MUST be deployed completely unsupported.
Even giving them all to the Trust Guard is risky as we often fight alongside them.

I strongly believe that you are Drastically underestimating how inclusive 'deployed with' is going to be. As far as Avernites are concerned spiders, of any kind, are the worst thing in existence. The majority of Avernites that fall to chaos do so for the promise of being protected from spiders. The Spiderbane Dragonfly replaced the Imperial Eagle in Avernite artwork. Being on the same battlefield as these giant unholy abominations and not shooting them is going to horrifically disturb our troops.

It might be possible to use them productively. However I see no reason to waste the time and effort trying when we can just use anything else and not have to deal with such problems.
someone already pointed out that we could use them when a chaos invasion happens and we have avernites to kill....pretty sure even chaos-turned avernites would just shoot themselves out of sheer-terror of having to FIGHT the darn things, not just fight along side them.

also, the black-irons won't be effected.

so I give the following proposal:
Attach a small number of the bolah spiders to the black-irons. we will still have the option of holding the bolah spiders back anyway when we decide its not worth not being able to send other regiements with them. but the times where we'd rather send the black-irons on their own anyway? they can have the bolah spiders as mounts/support.


also, I want the spiders because PUPPY SPIDERS
 
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How about we stop blowing things way out of proportions before we even know the exact effect they'll have on our morale? If they were as unusable as you pretend then it wouldn't have made the list at all.
 
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