The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up

[Nurgle]

For those I think a few elites to stiffen things up where needed would suffice, rather than huge armies.

Also, they'll likely be more than happy to let our troops land when they see the Tyranids arrive.

Click to shrink...

See that is the problem. We would need time to set up for the General in charge to consult with Rotbart and plan out a defense. Than there is the problem of those worlds defenses and infrastructure. Some worlds would have great defenses and others would not. Than there is the security risk of infiltrators and spies. If we send elites they will have equipment that people would kill for literally. Also any worlds that we loose in orbit we loose those elites too. So we have to send overwhelming support not just a few elites.

 

[guyfromtheplace1]

Against Chaos and Ork worlds I figured we'd bombard them from orbit, mostly. Maybe a few ground troops would be needed to deal with some hard targets, but we wouldn't have massive ground campaigns.

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I was thinking that for unaffiliated worlds we would use ground troops to crack their orbital defences whenever possible before bombarding them because we want to conserve naval power.

Edit: Wouldn't we have to land a bunch of troops to hold the uncorrupted worlds?

For Amir Ka we would avoid landing troops, but would keep it as an option in case their coordinated defence collapses and we begin to see clear victory space battles when we intervene, but planets still getting overwhelmed by multiplying ground forces.

I suppose we could just bombard any Amir Ka world that gets infested, leave if challenged by warp capable Amir Ka forces, then come back if those warp capable forces move on or lose.

 

[lancelot]

So has anyone suggested having Lin, and Ridcully put together a custom training program for Alphas, and maybe Betas as well?

Because we should be getting better at this even if only thanks to survival of the fittest. But we're not ever generation we have more pykers and they're more powerful, but the rate they fail, and fall remains the same.

 

[Doomed Wombat]

See that is the problem. We would need time to set up for the General in charge to consult with Rotbart and plan out a defense. Than there is the problem of those worlds defenses and infrastructure. Some worlds would have great defenses and others would not. Than there is the security risk of infiltrators and spies. If we send elites they will have equipment that people would kill for literally. Also any worlds that we loose in orbit we loose those elites too. So we have to send overwhelming support not just a few elites.

Click to shrink...

We likely already know all the worlds capabilities and infrastructure very well, they will not be consulting with just us for this we have at least 3 commanders for this, infiltrators and spies are always a problem, and as for our stuff well they can just die I very much doubt they can take it off us and if they do then it'll be pretty good proof to deal with the problem preemptively no matter how much of a **** taste it leaves in the mouth.

So has anyone suggested having Lin, and Ridcully put together a custom training program for Alphas, and maybe Betas as well?

Because we should be getting better at this even if only thanks to survival of the fittest. But we're not ever generation we have more pykers and they're more powerful, but the rate they fail, and fall remains the same.

Click to shrink...

As it should.

There is no survival of the fittest going on, psycics don't follow that rule and they are not growing inherently more stable and the nature of psykers of that power is that they need individualised training tailored to each psyker.

When we have significantly more experience than we do then we might be able to do something on that front, but as of right now we are the leading expert on training stable alpha's and betas because we have trained 6 of the former and a few hundred of the latter successfully and are not really any closer to an answer.

 

[invictus1829]

I remember the talk about the Eldar being willing to give us a minor favor in exchange for having Rotbart for ten years.

What this is making me wonder is how does Rotbart's martial compare to that of the Eldar and other major powers?

 

[inverted_helix]

When we have significantly more experience than we do then we might be able to do something on that front, but as of right now we are the leading expert on training stable alpha's and betas because we have trained 6 of the former and a few hundred of the latter successfully and are not really any closer to an answer.

Click to shrink...

Well if you think about it the rate of success on alphas is 10% baseline and 65% cap if we dedicate someone to mentoring them (sometimes the mentor rolls low and gets less than that, but generally they hit the full bonus).

While raising the 65% limit is probably impossible, it should be possible to get the without mentoring level higher. We have trained 6 alphas successfully after all so knowing what mentors did should allow some sort of codified training manual to get the success rate without mentorship up.

Not sure if the action efficiency would be there given how small a portion of our telepathica time slots are spent mentoring alphas. However where it would be very useful is with Betas.

Betas have a 67.5% success rate cap, but we never spend telepathica actions mentoring them anymore so we often get success rates in the 30s or 40s. If we could create a new training program to get the success rate closer to the cap we could accumulate a lot more betas over time. We did spend a fair few mentor actions on betas over the course of the quest, so our telepathica heroes should be able to write up what works on that front.

 

[nat_401]

[X] Support the Second Plan
-[X] It's already certain that some of the human worlds will be lost. In this way we will be able preserve our forces, which will be expected to continue warring against the Tyranids over the next decades.

I'd rather take a loss in the first round than risk more later.

 

[Doomed Wombat]

Well if you think about it the rate of success on alphas is 10% baseline and 65% cap if we dedicate someone to mentoring them (sometimes the mentor rolls low and gets less than that, but generally they hit the full bonus).

While raising the 65% limit is probably impossible, it should be possible to get the without mentoring level higher. We have trained 6 alphas successfully after all so knowing what mentors did should allow some sort of codified training manual to get the success rate without mentorship up.

Not sure if the action efficiency would be there given how small a portion of our telepathica time slots are spent mentoring alphas. However where it would be very useful is with Betas.

Betas have a 67.5% success rate cap, but we never spend telepathica actions mentoring them anymore so we often get success rates in the 30s or 40s. If we could create a new training program to get the success rate closer to the cap we could accumulate a lot more betas over time. We did spend a fair few mentor actions on betas over the course of the quest, so our telepathica heroes should be able to write up what works on that front.

Click to shrink...

Yes it is its called teachers of similar power level being available full time for one on one teaching. For the betas we have only 6 regular sanctionites and 3 veterans who don't cover all the potential disciplines (neither biomancy or divination have beta sanctionites). For reference over the last 5 year turn we had 13 beta's take the trials, but since most betas are picked up as kids and need training from then preferably 1 on 1. It's not enough. We did add another beta sanctionite last turn (pyromancer) and have many more beta primaris to pick up the slack. However that doesn't compensate for everything since beta primari are extremely busy like all our primari.

It's not about training programmes as such things don't really exist for psykers of that degree of power beyond basics that most people dealing with living super weapons should really understand its about getting more teachers to deal with the overwhelming numbers of psykers we have like its been pretty much since day one. Next turn for instance we have 17 betas turn after that 19, dipping down to 13 for a turn then right back up to 22. It's not just a beta problem too, the Gamma's are strained as well by sheer numbers, although to a lesser extent.

 

[Nurgle]

Inserted tally

Adhoc vote count started by Nurgle on Apr 4, 2019 at 5:43 PM, finished with 123527 posts and 21 votes.

• ---

  14 people have voted

  [X] Support the third option.
  -[X] A degree of aggression is likely to be required to have a suitable impact against the Tyranids, but the Trust cannot afford to gamble everything so early on. If the fleets take massive losses, then the Trust will likely be unable to defend itself once the Tyranids arrive in Sub-Sector Cobalt.

  • Enjou
  • HanEmpire
  • SirHades2.0
  • Nurgle
  • werdZerg13
  • EyeOfSauron
  • Redciv3
  • Reynal
  • Klaus Wulfenback
  • LordEdric
  • cl20
  • xXxBlueViperxXx
  • huntsman0697
  • StormySky

  5 people have voted

  [X] Support the Second Plan
  -[X] It's already certain that some of the human worlds will be lost. In this way we will be able preserve our forces, which will be expected to continue warring against the Tyranids over the next decades.

  • Shard
  • Briefvoice
  • Azgrin
  • VE12
  • nat_401

  1 people have voted

  [X] Support the third option. -[X] A degree of aggression is likely to be required to have a suitable impact against the Tyranids, but the Trust cannot afford to gamble everything so early on. If the fleets take massive losses, then the Trust will likely be unable to defend itself once the Tyranids arrive in Sub-Sector Cobalt.

  • dragon

  1 people have voted

  [X] Support the third option.

  • guyfromtheplace1

 

[Reynal]

We're probably starting to get close to the point where we can revamp the Telepathica training again and take another look at psyker genetics, given that the last time we did so was a good chunk of time ago. Especially given the rising numbers AND percentage of major psykers—possibly indicative of a genetic shift.

That said, for all that Lin is personally incredible at handling faith/willpower issues for graduating psykers, I don't think he has much of the highly specialized knowledge and experience needed to seriously contribute to the overall curriculum, especially considering how he's already done everything he could in setting up an order of priests to directly aid the psykers (both in and out of training) in his area of competence. Fluff-wise he'd almost certainly pitch in if it was done in his lifetime, but I don't think it's on the list of items that must be completed by him.

 

[Doomed Wombat]

That said, for all that Lin is personally incredible at handling faith/willpower issues for graduating psykers, I don't think he has much of the highly specialized knowledge and experience needed to seriously contribute to the overall curriculum, especially considering how he's already done everything he could in setting up an order of priests to directly aid the psykers (both in and out of training) in his area of competence. Fluff-wise he'd almost certainly pitch in if it was done in his lifetime, but I don't think it's on the list of items that must be completed by him.

Click to shrink...

mmm Maybe one of his successors though?

I'd be surprised if the head (or at least major figure) in the psynastakana order wouldn't have some insight.

 

[Nurgle]

So I was thinking of getting Saint Lin Started on the Primordial Sea next turn but we have
1 Sirens
2 Nyne
3 mushrooms people
4 lizard men small
5 lizard men large
6 dragon people
7 Areatha
8 Eldar
To ask for help before we put Saint Lin on it. So it looks like he will have to do it in two turns.

 

[Doomed Wombat]

To ask for help before we put Saint Lin on it. So it looks like he will have to do it next turn.

Click to shrink...

Does he?

In any case we can use some personal actions to beef up the numbers a bit me thinks?

Although to add one more to that list the Grey Knights are a valid request help for as well.

Areatha already provides her bonus so she maybe taken off, but she may know some extra thing.

That being said start of next turn Lin's got a chance to double and double down.

 

[Nurgle]

Does he?

In any case we can use some personal actions to beef up the numbers a bit me thinks?

Although to add one more to that list the Grey Knights are a valid request help for as well.

Areatha already provides her bonus so she maybe taken off, but she may know some extra thing.

That being said start of next turn Lin's got a chance to double and double down.

Click to shrink...

Ok dropping Areatha still gives us at least 8 diplomatic actions. Also looking at how things are we may have to move things around so Rotbart can gonand start burning worlds down in the coming turn. We can move Thunder warriors to Richard in year one with only a one year lost on it.

 

[inverted_helix]

Yes it is its called teachers of similar power level being available full time for one on one teaching. For the betas we have only 6 regular sanctionites and 3 veterans who don't cover all the potential disciplines (neither biomancy or divination have beta sanctionites). For reference over the last 5 year turn we had 13 beta's take the trials, but since most betas are picked up as kids and need training from then preferably 1 on 1. It's not enough. We did add another beta sanctionite last turn (pyromancer) and have many more beta primaris to pick up the slack. However that doesn't compensate for everything since beta primari are extremely busy like all our primari.

It's not about training programmes as such things don't really exist for psykers of that degree of power beyond basics that most people dealing with living super weapons should really understand its about getting more teachers to deal with the overwhelming numbers of psykers we have like its been pretty much since day one. Next turn for instance we have 17 betas turn after that 19, dipping down to 13 for a turn then right back up to 22. It's not just a beta problem too, the Gamma's are strained as well by sheer numbers, although to a lesser extent.

Click to shrink...

Training programs for psykers of that degree of power not existing is the problem. We have enough psykers at that power now that making a generalized training regimen for them should be possible. We can have the living superweapons write the training manual. If there's no training program then anything we do is an improvement.

Though for that matter the idea that no one less powerful can possibly instruct them seems kind of flawed. I could understand that non-psykers would struggle, but the idea you need 1 beta to train 1 beta seems very flawed.

Why can't we set something up where each psyker is trained by one a rank lower? Their issues will be relatively similar and there will be vastly more potential teachers. Even doing something like 2 teachers per student is possible if you're doing it with gammas teaching betas and deltas teaching gammas.

Alternatively something like each student getting a dedicated teacher a rank lower and scheduled time with someone their own rank would offer some hybrid benefits. They get the hours of a full time dedicated teacher, and then still have access to someone on their own power level when issues crop up the lower power teacher can't handle.

This would offer significantly better coverage than the current situation. A manual on training betas put together by our higher level people would also then aid in the gammas training betas. The same could be applied to the gammas where we rarely ever hit the cap.

If we can get the beta success rate up to even 50% consistently it would be worthwhile, and it seems entirely possible to get it up to 60% considering we occasionally get above the 50% mark by sheer dumb luck.

 

[Reynal]

Honestly I really doubt anyone's going to have useful stuff for Primordial Sea research among the Avernus people we have contact with.

I mean, Diplo actions tend to be pretty low priority and there's other stuff for Lin to research in the interim.

My main ideas on that front would be (in no particular order):

1. Isha (could be relevant for the rescue as well as a good god to have a handle on considering how one of our single most important heroes has a blessing from her)
2. The Eldar pantheon (actual allies and the only Divine heavyweights we know that are currently active on the side of good-ish (Small Gods are, well, small and super diverse))
3. Curses on the Blood Angel descendent chapters (if Lin can do that)
4. The Sanginor (possible Curse relevance, general mysteriousness)

 

[Doomed Wombat]

Training programs for psykers of that degree of power not existing is the problem. We have enough psykers at that power now that making a generalized training regimen for them should be possible. We can have the living superweapons write the training manual. If there's no training program then anything we do is an improvement.

Though for that matter the idea that no one less powerful can possibly instruct them seems kind of flawed. I could understand that non-psykers would struggle, but the idea you need 1 beta to train 1 beta seems very flawed.

Why can't we set something up where each psyker is trained by one a rank lower? Their issues will be relatively similar and there will be vastly more potential teachers. Even doing something like 2 teachers per student is possible if you're doing it with gammas teaching betas and deltas teaching gammas.

Alternatively something like each student getting a dedicated teacher a rank lower and scheduled time with someone their own rank would offer some hybrid benefits. They get the hours of a full time dedicated teacher, and then still have access to someone on their own power level when issues crop up the lower power teacher can't handle.

This would offer significantly better coverage than the current situation. A manual on training betas put together by our higher level people would also then aid in the gammas training betas. The same could be applied to the gammas where we rarely ever hit the cap.

If we can get the beta success rate up to even 50% consistently it would be worthwhile, and it seems entirely possible to get it up to 60% considering we occasionally get above the 50% mark by sheer dumb luck.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, but we can't write a training manual when said manual is just get a heroic psyker or get another beta.

Because it is extraordinary harder for a gamma to even comprehend the problems facing a beta? The gap in power between a beta and a gamma is vast, you'd need an entire choir to match what a beta can pull out casually, which comes with massive problems. A normal gamma cannot teach a beta how to use their powers to even basic efficiency, they don't have the scale, the techniques they use are fundamentally different and their basic control is absolutely dissimilar.


We currently use the hybrid system because of lack of teachers (71 who need one on one training same as the 556 gammas 3,241 deltas etc. I bring up those numbers because currently we don't have enough sanctionites in any category except for the minors to actually do 1 on 1 on), as the currently over stressed system can attest it doesn't work very well, because there's not enough people.

Yes it would be worthwhile, we just can't do it and likely won't for a very long time.

Honestly I really doubt anyone's going to have useful stuff for Primordial Sea research among the Avernus people we have contact with.

I mean, Diplo actions tend to be pretty low priority and there's other stuff for Lin to research in the interim.

My main ideas on that front would be (in no particular order):

1. Isha (could be relevant for the rescue as well as a good god to have a handle on considering how one of our single most important heroes has a blessing from her)
2. The Eldar pantheon (actual allies and the only Divine heavyweights we know that are currently active on the side of good-ish (Small Gods are, well, small and super diverse))
3. Curses on the Blood Angel descendent chapters (if Lin can do that)
4. The Sanginor (possible Curse relevance, general mysteriousness)

Click to shrink...

Don't underestimate Avernus's **** you chaos.

While I doubt someone like the Lizardmen will have something, I got ideas for stuff.

True rune from the Siren, potion from the nynye things like that.

To add to the list Primarchs who we have confirmation we can do.

Problem though is that Lin's life is running out rapidly. We do need to do this ASAP.

 

[Nurgle]

Yeah, but we can't write a training manual when said manual is just get a heroic psyker or get another beta.

Because it is extraordinary harder for a gamma to even comprehend the problems facing a beta? The gap in power between a beta and a gamma is vast, you'd need an entire choir to match what a beta can pull out casually, which comes with massive problems. A normal gamma cannot teach a beta how to use their powers to even basic efficiency, they don't have the scale, the techniques they use are fundamentally different and their basic control is absolutely dissimilar.


We currently use the hybrid system because of lack of teachers (71 who need one on one training same as the 556 gammas 3,241 deltas etc. I bring up those numbers because currently we don't have enough sanctionites in any category except for the minors to actually do 1 on 1 on), as the currently over stressed system can attest it doesn't work very well, because there's not enough people.

Yes it would be worthwhile, we just can't do it and likely won't for a very long time.


Don't underestimate Avernus's **** you chaos.

While I doubt someone like the Lizardmen will have something, I got ideas for stuff.

True rune from the Siren, potion from the nynye things like that.

To add to the list Primarchs who we have confirmation we can do.

Problem though is that Lin's life is running out rapidly. We do need to do this ASAP.

Click to shrink...

We have 35 years before we start rolling for Lin to die of natural causes. Unfortunately that is about the time a lot of problems will hit at once.

 

[Doomed Wombat]

We have 35 years before we start rolling for Lin to die of natural causes. Unfortunately that is about the time a lot of problems will hit at once.

Click to shrink...

Ah never mind then.

Plenty of time for us to get the help Lin needs, since diplo likely ain't going to be a top priority though we should start now.

 

[Nurgle]

@Durin is Atlas one of the worlds that the Tryanids are targeting?

 

[lancelot]

Well if you think about it the rate of success on alphas is 10% baseline and 65% cap if we dedicate someone to mentoring them (sometimes the mentor rolls low and gets less than that, but generally they hit the full bonus).

While raising the 65% limit is probably impossible, it should be possible to get the without mentoring level higher. We have trained 6 alphas successfully after all so knowing what mentors did should allow some sort of codified training manual to get the success rate without mentorship up.

Not sure if the action efficiency would be there given how small a portion of our telepathica time slots are spent mentoring alphas. However where it would be very useful is with Betas.

Betas have a 67.5% success rate cap, but we never spend telepathica actions mentoring them anymore so we often get success rates in the 30s or 40s. If we could create a new training program to get the success rate closer to the cap we could accumulate a lot more betas over time. We did spend a fair few mentor actions on betas over the course of the quest, so our telepathica heroes should be able to write up what works on that front.

Click to shrink...

I'm talking about Alphas getting constant dedicated one on one teaching from the moment their found with a custom lesson plan. If they don't get that already.

 

[Doomed Wombat]

I'm talking about Alphas getting constant dedicated one on one teaching from the moment their found with a custom lesson plan. If they don't get that already.

Click to shrink...

We do our best to ensure they get that.

 

[Durin]

@Durin is Atlas one of the worlds that the Tryanids are targeting?

Click to shrink...

it is

 

[invictus1829]

Honestly I really doubt anyone's going to have useful stuff for Primordial Sea research among the Avernus people we have contact with.

I mean, Diplo actions tend to be pretty low priority and there's other stuff for Lin to research in the interim.

My main ideas on that front would be (in no particular order):

1. Isha (could be relevant for the rescue as well as a good god to have a handle on considering how one of our single most important heroes has a blessing from her)
2. The Eldar pantheon (actual allies and the only Divine heavyweights we know that are currently active on the side of good-ish (Small Gods are, well, small and super diverse))
3. Curses on the Blood Angel descendent chapters (if Lin can do that)
4. The Sanginor (possible Curse relevance, general mysteriousness)

Click to shrink...

In regards to the Eldar Pantheon, it might be worthwhile to look at the one god of theirs that turned to chaos. That might prove valuable for our understanding of both chaos and their corrupting power.

 

[Nurgle]

Good one world down and one more to go than