The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up

Investigate the Sea?

  • Yes

    Votes: 593 80.4%
  • No

    Votes: 145 19.6%

  • Total voters
    738
Demanding absolute loyalty of them is folly. That of a loyal citizen is about as much as we can hope and strive for.

20 000 years would drive humans insane too, and humans turn against humanity for far lesser reasons all the time.

The problem is AI were and still are the fucking devil to the admech.

They don't give a damn about reasonable expectations these were the things that in the admechs view caused humanity to fall from a perfect golden age to basically barbarism.

It's hard to put into words the amount of religious and dogmatic hatred involved here.

Logic does not truly matter after a certain point.
 
I think that Doomed Wombat and Enjou are both focusing on the wrong thing when it comes to why our psyker knowledge is not very useful to the other powers. It is not that they can't learn it, it is a problem of why would they?

All the other powers have, on a per capita basis, massively less psykers than the Trust, and over the thousand years since that Fall have worked to find the niche that is the most useful for their psykers to fill.

Why would a Callamus Psyker tech priest care about Biomancy? What the use of training how to form a chorus when you are never going to have enough psykers at the same place to use one? We have been growing our psyker knowledge in a direction that makes the best use of our absurd numbers, numbers that the other powers just don't have.

We face a similar problem with establishing our psyker orders, if we only had enough psykers for two orders we would not bother with any power research outside of those two.

Farther more, Durin already said that they will be making use of our knowledge, "not very useful" is massively different than "of no use at all". If a given power is applicable than it will be integrated, if it is just so good that it is worth learning anyway, than they will learn it anyway.
 
Ultramar is not going to be a problem. If the Destroyer doesn't arise they'll be put on the backfoot by the Taus AI advantage and desperate to catch up, if the Destroyer does arise they will be fighting alongside AI-forces for an extended time, diminishing prejudice. They are the most likely to want a piece of our MoS in my opinion. In fact, if we don't give it to them they'll probably develop their own by reverse engineering Tau examples.
Ultramar has been fighting against the Tau and their proto AI for a very long time and are still by far the most xenophobic polity out of the big three to say nothing of the fact that against the Tau and the Necronish destroyer, AI of their own is possibly most likely to cause issues.

Far from guaranteed, but still.

Logic does not truly matter after a certain point.
Ironic or a people that prides itself on being logical.

I think that Doomed Wombat and Enjou are both focusing on the wrong thing when it comes to why our psyker knowledge is not very useful to the other powers. It is not that they can't learn it, it is a problem of why would they?

All the other powers have, on a per capita basis, massively less psykers than the Trust, and over the thousand years since that Fall have worked to find the niche that is the most useful for their psykers to fill.

Why would a Callamus Psyker tech priest care about Biomancy? What the use of training how to form a chorus when you are never going to have enough psykers at the same place to use one? We have been growing our psyker knowledge in a direction that makes the best use of our absurd numbers, numbers that the other powers just don't have.

We face a similar problem with establishing our psyker orders, if we only had enough psykers for two orders we would not bother with any power research outside of those two.

Farther more, Durin already said that they will be making use of our knowledge, "not very useful" is massively different than "of no use at all". If a given power is applicable than it will be integrated, if it is just so good that it is worth learning anyway, than they will learn it anyway.
Well lets look at what we know, Midgard produces an extremely large number of psykers, not as many as Avernus no, but still an extremely high number none the less.

I think we can take that as an average for the human species, if not below average since we skipped 1000 years then how many non trained psykers do you think the big three produce with hundreds of hive worlds a piece?

Quartius specialises in its Librarians Callamus in Tech Psykers and secundus can't actually get theirs so forgive me for assuming that there's a probably a large number of untrained normal psykers who represent an untapped resource.

And no they will have enough psykers for choires if the bloody Imperium was creating psyker regiments by the end of its existence then I can guarnatee their numbers are not so low that they can't make a proper choir if nothing else out of Librarians.

The thing is that hypothetical isn't a reality. They won't be able to do research that's why we have Avernus, we can do the research for the regular psyker orders.

But to answer your hypothetical I'd have thought learning more about the nature of the warp in general and researching outside of those two fields would be rather fucking important if for no other reason than to improve and adapt their arsenals in the face of the overwhelming piles of chaos psykers and daemons! But apparently this is not the fucking case, because its how they do things.


Not very useful means not very useful. Its only slightly better than of no use at all, and if all we have now is not very useful then its going to continue to be not very useful whether its the powers we reverse engineer or the fundamental nature of the warp we figure out.
 
It's amazing how arrogant players are
...

Its the educational exchanges all over again isn't it.
I think that Doomed Wombat and Enjou are both focusing on the wrong thing when it comes to why our psyker knowledge is not very useful to the other powers. It is not that they can't learn it, it is a problem of why would they?

All the other powers have, on a per capita basis, massively less psykers than the Trust, and over the thousand years since that Fall have worked to find the niche that is the most useful for their psykers to fill.

Why would a Callamus Psyker tech priest care about Biomancy? What the use of training how to form a chorus when you are never going to have enough psykers at the same place to use one? We have been growing our psyker knowledge in a direction that makes the best use of our absurd numbers, numbers that the other powers just don't have.

We face a similar problem with establishing our psyker orders, if we only had enough psykers for two orders we would not bother with any power research outside of those two.

Farther more, Durin already said that they will be making use of our knowledge, "not very useful" is massively different than "of no use at all". If a given power is applicable than it will be integrated, if it is just so good that it is worth learning anyway, than they will learn it anyway.

As a player I even I admit that I find the narcissism of the players really annoying at times. The Avernite arrogance comes from our attitude afterall. People need to accept that people just do things differently than us. Seriously, how hard is it to accept that people can do things their own way?

Wouldn't be surprised if the other polities were offended with the typical Avernite arrogance pretty much telling the other polities that their psyker traditions that they have been building up for over a thousand years are worthless and that the Avernite way is superior. Honestly it just feels like people are pushing that to feel more important about ourselves.
 
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Ironic or a people that prides itself on being logical.
But entirely predictable, in many ways the Ad Mech is a narrative tool to keep the settings stagnate. Which is actually pretty hilarious since that limited the ability of GWs to invent new models for humanity without resorting to retcons and out right creating a new character who was hoarding a bunch of new shit to several thousands years.
 
As a player I even I admit that I find the narcissism of the players really annoying at times. The Avernite arrogance comes from our attitude afterall. People need to accept that people just do things differently than us. Seriously, how hard is it to accept that people can do things their own way?

Wouldn't be surprised if the other polities were offended with the typical Avernite arrogance pretty much telling the other polities that their psyker traditions that they have been building up for over a thousand years are worthless and that the Avernite way is superior. Honestly it just feels like people are pushing that to feel more important about ourselves.
I probably unjustifiably feel this is aimed at me since I've probably been the most whiny little shit in this whole debacle.

To whit my rebuttal would be that I haven't said anywhere that their way of doing it is wrong, nor that ours is inherently superior, or even superior at all.

My reaction has stemmed from a sense of disappointment that we actually don't have much of anything to offer long term to the survival of sanity in the galaxy sans Ridcully and from the information I currently have there is no reason why we can't give them our stuff in parallel to take advantage of what I hope are millions of normal psykers (cause Libriarians and tech priests are not the norm for psykers they are the exception), just as why I can't see why Callamus can't give us the techniques and methods behind their psycic tech priests.

So no I do not see myself pushing anything to "feel more important" I'm going on about this both so I can see us continuing to be useful to the big three and to see if we can push out even a little bit more of an advantage for them. If that's arrogant and unreasonable then call me fucking Xerxes.

Then again this whole thing is probably just a monument to my idiotic ego.

But entirely predictable, in many ways the Ad Mech is a narrative tool to keep the settings stagnate. Which is actually pretty hilarious since that limited the ability of GWs to invent new models for humanity without resorting to retcons and out right creating a new character who was hoarding a bunch of new shit to several thousands years.
Also funny narratively as well, since Religion (or rather fanatical religion) is inherently illogical by most standards.
 
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So no I do not see myself pushing anything to "feel more important" I'm going on about this both so I can see us continuing to be useful to the big three and to see if we can push out even a little bit more of an advantage for them. If that's arrogant and unreasonable then call me fucking Xerxes.
fucking Xerxes ( :p), there is a reason why it's "the big three" and not "the big four". We're small. The only real advantages we have over other powers is technology and Ridcully. Take those away and the closest we have to an advantage is a single planet doing above-average amounts of psychic research. Just gotta accept that besides Ridcully, our relevance on the galactic stage will cease, and that's ok. We did our duty, the torch has been taken up, and now it's time to retire.
 
@Durin
1. Do we know with whom the other 5 representatives have met?
2. If so, have they told us of any high points of their meetings?
2a. And what where them?
3. Who/How many have sought out Lin?
 
fucking Xerxes ( :p), there is a reason why it's "the big three" and not "the big four". We're small. The only real advantages we have over other powers is technology and Ridcully. Take those away and the closest we have to an advantage is a single planet doing above-average amounts of psychic research. Just gotta accept that besides Ridcully, our relevance on the galactic stage will cease, and that's ok. We did our duty, the torch has been taken up, and now it's time to retire.

'Above average' is underselling the still functioning Old One research facility IMO. Our ability to leverage the Foundry may be limited. It's potential is not.
 
fucking Xerxes ( :p), there is a reason why it's "the big three" and not "the big four". We're small. The only real advantages we have over other powers is technology and Ridcully. Take those away and the closest we have to an advantage is a single planet doing above-average amounts of psychic research. Just gotta accept that besides Ridcully, our relevance on the galactic stage will cease, and that's ok. We did our duty, the torch has been taken up, and now it's time to retire.
Lin is doing a vastly above average amount of important (Grand scale important) research too.

And if, admittedly big if, the Niflheimer have a way of mass-producing Blanks, maybe something that can be induced in the population of a few Hiveworld in the bigger players that might be valuable on galactic scale too.
 
[] Avernus will abstain from regular tech transfers of any kind. With the small size of the Imperial Trust, obscurity would provide a greater defence than the technology it would get from periodic advancements.
[] Argue that the eldar pass on all advancements whenever the Black Imperium is distracted.

While the former is something people may not want to vote for, if periodic meetings is voted for then the second one should DEFINITELY be voted for as well, as there's no real downside; it's pure benefit.

'Above average' is underselling the still functioning Old One research facility IMO. Our ability to leverage the Foundry may be limited. It's potential is not.
It's been centuries and the benefits have been merely significant rather than dramatic. It'll be many more centuries before it becomes anything close to galactically significant.
 
Just gotta accept that besides Ridcully, our relevance on the galactic stage will cease, and that's ok. We did our duty, the torch has been taken up, and now it's time to retire.
Yeah, but that isn't nor does it help.

The duty doesn't end, there should be something we can do that's fucking useful.

It's been centuries and the benefits have been merely significant rather than dramatic. It'll be many more centuries before it becomes anything close to galactically significant.
I thought we were meant to have managed to advance humanities psycic knowledge more in a shorter period of time than anyone else in history.

Evidently I was mistaken.
 
Yeah, but that isn't nor does it help.

The duty doesn't end, there should be something we can do that's fucking useful.

Survival is our duty. We're the enduring Trust, not a conquering Empire.

Emps is going to need a fleetbase in our neck of the galaxy when he comes back for the Second Great Crusade.

Becoming a Galactic Power was off the table from the moment Emps contained us in that warpstorm. We missed the best time to expand in return for a safer position to establish ourselves and protect our Tech.
 
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Maybe get the Eldar to hold technology in trust for us, but not take advantage of it until we already have the attention of major powers?
 
Survival is our duty. We're the enduring Trust, not a conquering Empire.

Emps is going to need a fleetbase in our neck of the galaxy when he comes back for the Second Great Crusade.

Becoming a Galactic Power was off the table from the moment Emps contained us in that warpstorm. We missed the best time to expand in return for a safer position to establish ourselves and protect our Tech.
Survival is our duty and we can survive better by actually being useful to the big three.

Helping them helps us survive, helps the entire galaxy survive, cause emps isn't coming back for 4000 years at a minimum, and give his schedule more likely the full 14,000.

Personally Emps did us no freaking favours putting us in that warp storm.

In fact I'd say he hurt our long term chances overwhelmingly.

Maybe get the Eldar to hold technology in trust for us, but not take advantage of it until we already have the attention of major powers?
That's the same as just putting it in a vault with more steps and chance of failure if the Eldar go down.
 
Survival is our duty and we can survive better by actually being useful to the big three.

Helping them helps us survive, helps the entire galaxy survive, cause emps isn't coming back for 4000 years at a minimum, and give his schedule more likely the full 14,000.

Personally Emps did us no freaking favours putting us in that warp storm.

In fact I'd say he hurt our long term chances overwhelmingly.

Seems like a severe lack of trust in Emps here. The mere fact that he felt the need to put us into that Warpstorm should tell you that he thought the other outcome would be worse. Who knows, we might not have been able to invest so heavily into finding all our tech and making it useable if we had to constantly fight for our survival. Leading up to us not being ready for this techtrade before the next monster appears on the stage and thus loosing one of the three important human remnants.

Maybe he feels that obscurity is a better defense for us than size.

Frankly, the only way the Trust is going to contribute on a galactic scale going forward is lending Elites to the Empire of Ashes. Perhaps that is the niche the Emperor forsaw for us.

Or maybe we are supposed to lay low until Avernus helps us finish the metamorphosis of humanity into a fully psychic species several tens of millenia early.

All i know is that our role in Emps plan isn't going to be our sheer strength of arms, and that we have handed over our technological advantage to those who can use it better than us.

[X] Avernus will abstain from regular tech transfers of any kind. With the small size of the Imperial Trust, obscurity would provide a greater defence than the technology it would get from periodic advancements.
 
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Seems like a severe lack of trust in Emps here. The mere fact that he felt the need to put us into that Warpstorm should tell you that he thought the other outcome would be worse. Who knows, we might not have been able to invest so heavily into finding all our tech and making it useable if we had to constantly fight for our survival. Leading up to us not being ready for this techtrade before the next monster appears on the stage and thus loosing one of the three important human remnants.

Maybe he feels that obscurity is a better defense for us than size.

Frankly, the only way the Trust is going to contribute on a galactic scale going forward is lending Elites to the Empire of Ashes. Perhaps that is the niche the Emperor forsaw for us.

Or maybe we are supposed to lay low until Avernus helps us finish the metamorphosis of humanity into a fully psychic species several tens of millenia early.

All i know is that our role in Emps plan isn't going to be our sheer strength of arms, and that we have handed over our technological advantage to those who can use it better than us.
I have no trust in emps what so over, the man screwed up everything at every conceivable point.

I do not believe we have any reason to trust him or his judgement, he's not infallible he's not even that farsighted, Ridcully is better than he is at seeing the future, after all divination was never Emps big thing. I'm not even certain he's as skilled a psyker his age should be, after all he's got raw power by the plenty.

If we'd not be in the warp storm then we'd probably have been able to dominate the surrounding regions pretty easily with our tech, vs primarily Imperial and pre awakening orks, we'd could have done so much, helped out so much earlier, which is why I want to believe it wasn't his fault we were in the damn thing.

His death caused a lot of random warp storms, I'd prefer if we just got stuck in one by accident.

And PFFFFFF do you really think the Emperor, that jackass who hates everything not human would entrust human metamorphosis to Avernus.

Emps doesn't have a plan, threw a few lights to the future and is praying that one or two make it through long enough for him to get back.

Don't put faith in him and his master plans, his last one ended in magnificent fashion.
 
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Considering his many many fuck-ups culminating with his death and near-devouring by the Abomination I honestly can't see why distrusting his wisdom is unreasonable.

We don't really have a choice but to trust him here. Railing against his past decision to trap us in that storm accomplishes nothing. We can only... trust... that his plan for us is one of his good ones.
 
We don't really have a choice but to trust him here. Railing against his past decision to trap us in that storm accomplishes nothing. We can only... trust... that his plan for us is one of his good ones.
No we don't. You're just assuming he had a plan in the first place.

He didn't have a plan, he just told us to survive, that's not a plan its statement and if he did somehow have a plan then its assuredly one of his bad ones since how did not communicating your fucking plans go last time you dumbass.

Oh right everything is now on fire. Yeah I don't think he had that concrete of a plan.
 
We don't really have a choice but to trust him here. Railing against his past decision to trap us in that storm accomplishes nothing. We can only... trust... that his plan for us is one of his good ones.

That's like arguing that being kidnapped makes Stockholm Syndrome reasonable. We have not choice but to act as though we trust his plans (not least because we are role-playing religious fanatics), but that is no reason not to entertain the notion OOC that he is less than all-wise.
 
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