The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up

Investigate the Sea?

  • Yes

    Votes: 593 80.4%
  • No

    Votes: 145 19.6%

  • Total voters
    738
Avernus is useless for warptech. It's about psychic powers, not technology. Like, one of them is advanced but they're too far away to count.

It might be an example of early season weirdness, but remember that phase tanks are a thing, and apparently based on a technological adaptation of the Landshark's power.

Add in the experience in detecting, measuring, and interacting with warpiness and I think it's fair to assume that research facilities on Avernus have accelerated our understanding of Warp tech.

Except seemingly not.



I think Callamus has this covered.
Our psyker stuff not being a huge deal is very different from it not being useful. They can't copy/paste our techniques because they're from a sufficiently different tradition, but that does nothing to the fundamental research we've done. And while that research was focused on how to get the most out of our techniques, it's unlikely not to apply to theirs.

As to Callamus having construction tech covered, I doubt that construction is going to be a major research focus for them going forward. They're bumping up against major enemies on all fronts and my impression was that most of their worlds are fairly developed. While construction tech is certainly useful for making repairs and further developing their worlds, it is most useful for crash development and colonization—neither of which is likely to be a large focus for them in the next century. As such, developing and improving construction tech should be a lower priority for them. It's unlikely that our own advancements there will be wholly duplicated by theirs if we focus a decent amount of our own attention there, with the added benefit of it allowing us to make use of the technology we create to help any crash development programs in Dragon's Nest as well as any expansion into what was formerly Valinor.
 
No he didn't.

Emps quite explicitly gave very few shits about chaos and chaos gave very few shits about him, he didn't even understand chaos's fundamental nature he gave so few shits about them otherwise he'd have known that chaos cannot be killed by disbelief in gods.

They were not in each others way and he did not earn their personal animosity until he stole from them, then he earned their animosity.

And why wouldhe earn their animosity earlier? He's as big a gnat to them as everyone else. The only reason he can do anything is that like everybody else he's in the materium where htey can't as easily leverage their power to flick him out of existence.

Also boldness doesn't really describe Rids "viewing" of slaanesh caught up in it is more accurate. Nurgle was intentional.

However describing Rids as a gnat only makes sense in that everyone except Gork and Mork is gnat compared to chaos and as Durin's pointed out several times, Ridcully is far too big for us in all honesty.
Kinda strange that you dismiss what I say and then go on to reference the events on Molech which completely prove my point. By "hundreds if not thousands of years before the Grat Crusade" I was referring to the events on Molech, which don't have a precise date AFAIK, aside from the fact we know they occurred sometime during the 5000 years of the Age of Strife. While the Emperor may have used that knowledge to create the Primarchs, that doesn't mean he began his project straight away in the aftermath.

The Chaos Gods opposed him because they had a personal grudge against him because he stole from them, and because they didn't want him to succeed in creating the Imperium. If they didn't, then they wouldn't have put aside their differences and allied against him, and they wouldn't have gone to such extreme lengths to ruin his plans, corrupt the Primarchs, and ruin the Imperium.

I'd caution against dismissing the Emperor's Imperial Truth, given that with trillions and quadrillions of potential followers it would still have had an effect in terms of reducing their power, particularly as humanity gradually evolved into a psychic species, even though it wouldn't have killed them.

My point in labelling Ridcully as a gnat was that he was insignificant to them and beneath their notice. The Emperor wasn't. Not only was he exponentially more powerful, but they also had personal grudges against him for his theft, and his goals contradicted their own. If Ridcully had to the contend with the same hostility, no longer just an onlooker beneath their notice, then they would likely interfere with his visions and actively hunt for him whenever he delved deep in the warp.
 
By the way, since Callamus is already around, did anyone ever make an omake polity based on Dandriss from Age of Strife?

Because that might be a cool example of quasi-Xenos.

Abhumans the size of Ogryns with metal integrated into every part of their body, seeding planets they conquer with rapidly growing psydevouring metal trees capable of superseeding a biosphere within years if tended to by their leaders. Living Metal Dragon Overlords created by networking the brains of countless devoured human psykers, led by the Mother Of Dragons, a battleship sized psychic monstrosity older than even the Primarchs, educated in the sorcerous arts by pre-fall Eldar and the conquered minds of Four Exalted Greater Demons of Chaos.

Too bad Dandriss was probably Exterminatused during the Great Crusade in this universe.

It would have been metal.
 
By the way, since Callamus is already around, did anyone ever make an omake polity based on Dandriss from Age of Strife?

Because that might be a cool example of quasi-Xenos.

Abhumans the size of Ogryns with metal integrated into every part of their body, seeding planets they conquer with rapidly growing psydevouring metal trees capable of superseeding a biosphere within years if tended to by their leaders. Living Metal Dragon Overlords created by networking the brains of countless devoured human psykers, led by the Mother Of Dragons, a battleship sized psychic monstrosity older than even the Primarchs, educated in the sorcerous arts by pre-fall Eldar and the conquered minds of Four Exalted Greater Demons of Chaos.

Too bad Dandriss was probably Exterminatused during the Great Crusade in this universe.

It would have been metal.
That sounds immensely stupid and bullshit, especially the four Exalted.

And probably corrupted by Chaos too.
 
A question: Research. Does traditional imperial AdMech do any new and inventive research at all?
 
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Our psyker stuff not being a huge deal is very different from it not being useful. They can't copy/paste our techniques because they're from a sufficiently different tradition, but that does nothing to the fundamental research we've done. And while that research was focused on how to get the most out of our techniques, it's unlikely not to apply to theirs.

As to Callamus having construction tech covered, I doubt that construction is going to be a major research focus for them going forward. They're bumping up against major enemies on all fronts and my impression was that most of their worlds are fairly developed. While construction tech is certainly useful for making repairs and further developing their worlds, it is most useful for crash development and colonization—neither of which is likely to be a large focus for them in the next century. As such, developing and improving construction tech should be a lower priority for them. It's unlikely that our own advancements there will be wholly duplicated by theirs if we focus a decent amount of our own attention there, with the added benefit of it allowing us to make use of the technology we create to help any crash development programs in Dragon's Nest as well as any expansion into what was formerly Valinor.
We were told our psyker stuff is not very useful that implies that knowledge of things like frequencies are just that not very useful.

Callamus's thing is its economy, I bet my very nice new hat that, Callamus's invests a great deal in construction, it lets them build bigger so they can make bigger factories, it lets them colonise new worlds faster to feed their economies, it lets them construct bigger war machines.

In short its an economic tech and economics is their thing, I think they'll be going at it with a vengeance.

Kinda strange that you dismiss what I say and then go on to reference the events on Molech which completely prove my point. By "hundreds if not thousands of years before the Grat Crusade" I was referring to the events on Molech, which don't have a precise date AFAIK, aside from the fact we know they occurred sometime during the 5000 years of the Age of Strife. While the Emperor may have used that knowledge to create the Primarchs, that doesn't mean he began his project straight away in the aftermath.

The Chaos Gods opposed him because they had a personal grudge against him because he stole from them, and because they didn't want him to succeed in creating the Imperium. If they didn't, then they wouldn't have put aside their differences and allied against him, and they wouldn't have gone to such extreme lengths to ruin his plans, corrupt the Primarchs, and ruin the Imperium.

I'd caution against dismissing the Emperor's Imperial Truth, given that with trillions and quadrillions of potential followers it would still have had an effect in terms of reducing their power, particularly as humanity gradually evolved into a psychic species, even though it wouldn't have killed them.

My point in labelling Ridcully as a gnat was that he was insignificant to them and beneath their notice. The Emperor wasn't. Not only was he exponentially more powerful, but they also had personal grudges against him for his theft, and his goals contradicted their own. If Ridcully had to the contend with the same hostility, no longer just an onlooker beneath their notice, then they would likely interfere with his visions and actively hunt for him whenever he delved deep in the warp.
Not really, the events on Molech prove that he gained their attention and ire then, but he also laid the seeds for the perfect feast for them.

You seem to be under the misassumption that chaos was afraid of the Imperium, this couldn't be further from the truth they were fucking salivating for it. The Imperium was an all you can eat buffet for them. While I don't agree with the Cabal they were right to label the ending where emps "won" as a bad end for a good reason.

Chaos does have long term planning, they wouldn't start interfering with dear old emps until they were certain they could get their meal and get back at him.

The creation of the Imperium is not a threat to them its an opportunity they went to extreme lengths both to get back at him, but also because they wanted his Imperium, they wanted that crumbling piece of shit held together by dream and duct tape, all they needed was to shuffle emps out of the way and then let the Beast he created do the rest.

If they were religious gods, ones that were affected by the belief of their worshippers maybe, but they're not they're primal gods. All actions taken within their domains grants them power, belief in gods doesn't matter, quadrillions of people disbelieving in them wouldn't matter so long as they're shedding blood and decay is still occurring. Unless that belief is properly channelled into say...a god with the right counter domains you're not going to cut down anything. Basically if he wanted to actually hurt chaos setting himself up as a god in full is actually the right thing to do. At best all that power would head to Mala or create a god of the greater good esque being.

What are you talking about humanities psycic ascension taking power away from chaos...its the opposite, they gain more power from a psycic humanity. Psycic humanity has stronger souls, which creates more power for them. They want us psycic as much as emps in their own way. Every action a psyker takes in a domain also produces more strength.

So's emps, he went below the radar for millennia despite being the one who managed to get the Dragon to sleep and being one of the handful of Apex psykers in reality, but sure as shit wasn't stronger.

Chaos has always surpassed emps in power astronomically, but chaos's biggest weakness is always the inability to use that power, they can't reach into reality to smack him, its why they have to smart rather than apply hammer logic at all times.

But yeah if Rids had to contend with the same hostility, he probably would die, but so would emps. Every time he tried to see he'd get killed instantly.

Eldrad would probably live, since he can apparently run away from a Great God in its own realm and get away nearly unharmed.

A question: Research. Does traditional imperial AdMech do any new and inventive research at all?

Short answer no

Long answers if you're making anything new then almost no. Take the Malcador, it is a "new" design fashioned from a fragment of a blue print. It took so long to create and then receive theological purity the magos who created died of old age.

Magi live 1000 years.

You can create slight deviations on preexisting designs like las guns, but they also need to have some strong reason or theological basis and it can take for fucking ever as well.

In short it needs to be strongly connected to something that already exists preferably an STC, you cannot take one thing and change its purpose into something else and you need to have enormous amounts of respect before you can even make the attempt.

Ironically the only place where this is slightly laxer is in ship design.

Wanna know something more ironic. There's nothing in the admech's doctrine prohibiting innovation.

Not a damn thing.

No warning or anything.
 
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No they do not. So any research will be what Avernus does or what Muselphiem and Nilfhiem decide to reveal.
Hopefully this will help shove the conservatives further down.

Sorry, but yeah hopefully when the conservatives go down on Alfheim and Vanaheim we'll have two other places contributing to the tech generation...at least if that's how Durin wants to go about it.

Eh, i am just taking what actually happened in Age of Strife, turning it up to Eleven and extrapolating by some 20.000 years into the future.
I don't remember an exalted...even turned up to 11 that seems stretching.

Wonderful quest though.

Right...zzz.
 
FIRST:{
I always thought that wh40k might be grim-derp on the large scale but you can still have localized victorys....I like that

so I don't see why we need to be of galactic importance...let us just be our own big-ish fish in the more localized small-pond.
}
SECOND:{
our job (the trust) is to survive, period....nothing more, nothing less....the big three can try to actually fight and stuff.

as per emps instructions...which regardless of how rational it is OOC, it doenst matter because IC:
WE, FOLLOW, THE, EMPEROR'S, INSTRUCTIONS.

......maybe other people don't want to actually roll-play and just want to meta-game their way to a happy victory but I don't...I actually want to play it at least SOMEWHAT...
and based off durins post about ppl being arrogant (in the context of people wanting to be of galactic importance...) ..I want to guess that durin was not ramping us up for that.

diden't durin at one point say that one of his things for this quest was to explore just how HUGE wh40k is? ....if that was the case then wouldn't he be putting our story on the local level only? with that in mind I'm surprised that durin let ANYTHING happen such that we could manage to help the galactic-stage as much as we ALREADY HAVE.

so basically, no, I don't think we should be trying/wanting to impact things on the galatic stage...we are simply too small to be of much help no matter WHAT we do.

think of it this way....we are playing a game of age of empires or some other RTS...our side has begun to lose in the late game so the emps sent off a few villgers into a corner/behind a allys base so that if his main base got burned down (again), he could rebuild and try for a desperate turn-around.....us trying to send off solders/anything visable before the main base has even collapsed would negate the point of sending the villagers in the first place and would not be worth losing the second chance that emps wants us to be.

compare this to how, the main base CAN afford to throw solders out because the enemy is already focusing on that base.



of course, the metaphor does not apply perfectly since the enemy already knows where we are...but instead of hiding behind the fog of war, we are hiding behind the fact that we are so incredibly small that its not worth sending the needed forces to step on us half way across the galaxy....nor can chaos just simply order the locals to do it because the locals are chaos.

basically, we are hiding behind the orks, necrons and nids......despite them being our enemy.
}
 
A second question, then. How hidebound would you expect the AdMech of the Star Father be?

I ask, because it seems to me that if they use thousands of years to implement every single change, well... A few thousand years behind the curve in 39k was irrelevant. Now? Now that is no longer the case. At all.
 
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I miss that quest so much so very much. Love live the mother of dragons!

@Doomed Wombat there was one exalted demon but he go banished for 7777 years :(
Coprocacopultestifer was only banished for a few millenia, he would have been back for revenge. So another chance to snack on his delicious essence!
Don't remember it being exalted, but sure.

Haven't read it in a while.

so I don't see why we need to be of galactic importance...let us just be our own big-ish fish in the more localized small-pond.
Not arguing for that.

But, the bigger ponds don't stop existing because we're not participating. We can do our bit for the bigger fish, cleaning off the bacteria in this analogy.

Its not much, but it helps.

SECOND:{
our job (the trust) is to survive, period....nothing more, nothing less....the big three can try to actually fight and stuff.

as per emps instructions...which regardless of how rational it is OOC, it doenst matter because IC:
WE, FOLLOW, THE, EMPEROR'S, INSTRUCTIONS.

......maybe other people don't want to actually roll-play and just want to meta-game their way to a happy victory but I don't...I actually want to play it at least SOMEWHAT...
and based off durins post about ppl being arrogant (in the context of people wanting to be of galactic importance...) ..I want to guess that durin was not ramping us up for that.

diden't durin at one point say that one of his things for this quest was to explore just how HUGE wh40k is? ....if that was the case then wouldn't he be putting our story on the local level only? with that in mind I'm surprised that durin let ANYTHING happen such that we could manage to help the galactic-stage as much as we ALREADY HAVE.

so basically, no, I don't think we should be trying/wanting to impact things on the galatic stage...we are simply too small to be of much help no matter WHAT we do.

think of it this way....we are playing a game of age of empires or some other RTS...our side has begun to lose in the late game so the emps sent off a few villgers into a corner/behind a allys base so that if his main base got burned down (again), he could rebuild and try for a desperate turn-around.....us trying to send off solders/anything visable before the main base has even collapsed would negate the point of sending the villagers in the first place and would not be worth losing the second chance that emps wants us to be.

compare this to how, the main base CAN afford to throw solders out because the enemy is already focusing on that base.



of course, the metaphor does not apply perfectly since the enemy already knows where we are...but instead of hiding behind the fog of war, we are hiding behind the fact that we are so incredibly small that its not worth sending the needed forces to step on us half way across the galaxy....nor can chaos just simply order the locals to do it because the locals are chaos.

basically, we are hiding behind the orks, necrons and nids......despite them being our enemy.
There are many means of survival and fundamentally we're doing what everyone else is doing banking on the apocolypse factions to be too busy beating the shit out of each other. The only reason Vulkan announced the Quartus Imperium is because Abaddon is currently occupied with the level 4. Other wise the entire thing would have been destroyed in a couple of years as a furious abaddon marshals the resources of the entire segmentum to throw at him.

I do not believe Durin was referring to wanting to be of galactic scale importance as the arrogance (at least I wasn't. If I was then that wasn't my intent.) I believe the arrogance was for thinking that our psycic stuff was in anyway important to them.

If he wishes to explore the setting's scale, then it makes sense to let us see the grandeur from our small perspective and to let us grow. Exploring scale does not necessitate us remaining tiny.

Your metaphor breaks down because we, the big three and any other of emps peeps are the villagers, the base has already collapsed. It would be more accurate to say we have a super unit constructing that could turn the game around, but it's taking a fucking long time and the reason we've not lost yet is because its a 15 way match and 11 of the players are too busy beating the shit out of each other, while we try to build as big as we can so we can survive until the super unit finishes. Oh and two of our three allies are too busy snarling at the third one to cooperate beyond grunts.

A second question, then. How hidebound would you expect the AdMech of the Star Father be?

I ask, because it seems to me that if they use thousands of years to implement every single change, well... A few thousand years behind the curve in 39k was irrelevant. Now? Now that is no longer the case. At all.
As hypocritical as is needed to get things done.

I expect that the surface level will be as hidebound as you like, but go beneath the surface and you'll find them breaking as many rules as needed.

Blind faith can be so malleable, the mind can easily be tricked.

That or they'll just accelerate time on their daemon forges, so 1000 years have passed inside then claim good enough.

zzzz
 
I miss that quest so much so very much. Love live the mother of dragons!

@Doomed Wombat there was one exalted demon but he go banished for 7777 years :(
I'm starting to go through said quest.....seems interesting. (will be nice to get the perspective of a second quest)

btw @Durin, ignore the crazy's in the chat...your doing awesome, your quest is awesome....don't give up!

(I have no idea how much the chatters put you down, so I'm throwing out that last line just in case cas it can't hurt righ)
 
In defense of the Big E I thinks it's wrong to treat him as a character, he's more of plot device or a center of gravity. Due to how inconsitantly he's portrayed he's a justification/reason for things not an actual individual.
 
On psyker stuff, I think it's important to note that we started with baseline Imperial tradition and have only had a few hundred years to improve it, while everyone else had access to the same and a thousand extra years to develop it. If our stuff was superior enough to be worth them ditching much of their own improvements to pursue at this point it would be insane.

That said, out of the traditions that are forming I would say that ours is likely to be the most generally applicable, given that it was developed for use by baseline humans rather than Astares or techpriests, and much of our research focus has been on fundamentals.

Actually it does seem like it would make sense for a polity that heavily prefers technomancy as a discipline would have pretty much all their psykers be techpriests to take advantage of technomancy as much as possible considering that they are Admech.
 
Actually it does seem like it would make sense for a polity that heavily prefers technomancy as a discipline would have pretty much all their psykers be techpriests to take advantage of technomancy as much as possible considering that they are Admech.
Not everyone is cut out to be a techpriest. In fact, I'm betting a significant majority of their psykers aren't. Those psykers, as they cannot become effective techpriests, are currently underutilized by their system.
 
Not everyone is cut out to be a techpriest. In fact, I'm betting a significant majority of their psykers aren't. Those psykers, as they cannot become effective techpriests, are currently underutilized by their system.

The Mechanicus of Imperial days could turn Psykers into Servitors if I recall correctly. It's how Mars stayed in touch with its Forgeworld Colonies during the Age of Strife, i think. Alratan said something like that in Deus Ex Machina.
 
Not everyone is cut out to be a techpriest. In fact, I'm betting a significant majority of their psykers aren't. Those psykers, as they cannot become effective techpriests, are currently underutilized by their system.

Something that was done by Deus Ex Callamus was create an education system with one of the main purposes being to create a lot more people with the skills to become tech priests and they also did genetic engineering to make their people a lot more intelligent in general to increase the number of peolpe able to become tech priests.

So of a similar set up exists I can easily see a lot more of the population able to become tech priests. Also should consider that they are willing to lower the standards to gain more technomancers from pragmatism.
 
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Something that was done by Deus Ex Callamus was create an education system with one of the main purposes being to create a lot more people with the skills to become tech priests and they also did genetic engineering to make their people a lot more intelligent in general to increase the number of peolpe able to become tech priests.

So of a similar set up exists I can easily see a lot more of the population able to become tech priests. Also should consider that they are willing to lower the standards to gain more technomancers from pragmatism.
I'm sure they do a fair bit to encourage more techpriests as well as making marginal techpriest psykers useful, but I doubt they can do much with those in the bottom fifty percent of techpriest potential in the psykers, let alone the bottom ten or twenty. Remember, the majority of psykers qualify as some degree of insane anyway.

So far every polity other than ours has a major requirement for their psykers to be useful beyond stability for their tradition, be it Astares compatibly or enough of a technical inclination to be trainable. Our tradition does not. So long as something like a double digit percentage of otherwise trainable pyskers in the other polities do not or cannot meet the extra requirement of their local tradition there is a motive to figure out a way to use them, be it through finding ways to relax the requirements for the local traditions or importing other traditions.

Now, while salvaging a percentage of a proportionally low number of psykers for use by the polity isn't likely to be worth the hassle of setting something else up in the near term (next century or three), in the long term as psyker numbers rise the cost benefit analysis shifts. And when it does I'm betting we'll be an attractive option as a secondary tradition to import, simply because our tradition can hypothetically work for all stable human psykers without further tweaking.
 
He spent a century battering down Cadia I think if Callamus could pull it off and Quartius could pull it off covertly while being right next door to him I think we'd have been fine.
Yeah, and we'd have to spend that century running around and convincing people that the world did not end and that we have a say into what happens to them, and that Abomination is going to eat everyone if they don't change. Us having empire at all by the time Abaddon gets out is already a rather long shot, and then we'd have to deal with him.

Callamus already had tons of influence in surrounding sectors by the time of Fall, and Quartus had Primarchs running around and helping. More importantly, they are both very far away from the Eye of Terror - Callamus all the way in Tempestus, and Quartus not next door but a third of galaxy away, on the western border of Ultima.
 
Lin would have been a huge help in helping to convince others of what was going to happen. Oh, it would still be risky, but we would had a good chance of becoming a major player sans the Warp storm if we didn't fucked up early-on.
 
I will answer questions a bit later but the arrogance I was referring to was the assumption that your psychic tradition would be better then theirs, which have evolved to meet their needs
 
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