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The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up
- Thread starter Durin
- Start date
- Location
- Leeds
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Its the educational exchanges all over again isn't it.
- Location
- The Bayou, Everglades
At least it's not covert propaganda.
Enerael
We Shall Wake to Sanity
Almost forgot, distracted as I was by Addios excellent omake:
[X] Argument to support future meetings and periodic technology transfer, but upon discovery have the Eldar immediately begin passing on future advances.
-[X] Point out that every polity will take at least a century to properly digest the results of the first Tech Conference, and thus cannot take much advantage of the instantaneous Eldar tech-transfer for that duration.
I do believe that we will have plenty to trade in the future. Perhaps less than the other powers, but Tranth is good enough to be relevant on that scale, if not a major player perhaps. Also while our psyker techniques would be difficult to tech, fundamental warp knowledge and warptech such as the navigators, gellar fields, etc are a rather different matter.
Not to mention safe-ish Avernus biotech, like the Nogs and beergrass.
[X] Argument to support future meetings and periodic technology transfer, but upon discovery have the Eldar immediately begin passing on future advances.
-[X] Point out that every polity will take at least a century to properly digest the results of the first Tech Conference, and thus cannot take much advantage of the instantaneous Eldar tech-transfer for that duration.
I do believe that we will have plenty to trade in the future. Perhaps less than the other powers, but Tranth is good enough to be relevant on that scale, if not a major player perhaps. Also while our psyker techniques would be difficult to tech, fundamental warp knowledge and warptech such as the navigators, gellar fields, etc are a rather different matter.
Not to mention safe-ish Avernus biotech, like the Nogs and beergrass.
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
Sure I'm being arrogant in assuming we have anything to give the colossal titans, but here's how I look at it.
Until yesterday we had no indications that there were other major styles of human psykery that were so different that all stuff was made practically useless and we still don't know why we can't properly cross polinate things.
We don't need to infringe on their styles unless they have the psyker production of a couple of dozen and I can't help but notice that you have not mentioned a word on whether or not fundamental things are useful to them.
Its arrogance born from lack of knowledge, (in my case) the desire to actually be useful to the rest of the galaxy in some capacity and (also in my case) fostered by the belief that such a thing was possible because of this
Which I thought meant that psychic research would be our niche to help the rest of the galaxy.
Evidently I misinterpreted what this meant and that's on me.
Is it really arrogance thought? I see this sort of disconnect a lot as a player and GM and I feel it might simply a case of the players being aware of a basic inescapable fact of questing: no matter how big and varied the universe of quest it still revolves around the players simply because that's where most of the GM's attention has to go. The world becomes more granular, more detailed and more alive the closer to the players it gets, player actions have a disproportional impact on how the story progress simply because it is a story about player action.
To put it another way, there is no reason why some roving galactic threat could not have squished Avernus centuries ago in the proverbial 'rocks fall everyone dies'. But I doubt that is ever happen without some kind of ability to either prevent it, or conversely some player action that set off the calamity because it would be bad storytelling otherwise.
Telling players they are insignificant will always ring hollow on some level which is why those IC limits have to be established again and again. That is not to say they should not be there. Limits define a story every bit as much as agency does however they will always be tested.
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Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
Never forget the ultimate powers of a player:
1. Cheat Codes Activated
2. Save/Reload
It's not necessarily wrong, just not correct in the way you were thinking. There are ways that our psychic research could help other polities. Things like the Siren Runes are useful to everyone. Secundus apparently lacks in numbers due to lack of Black Ships, and we have the option of researching how to make more using the runes. Knowing about Warp Echoes and that we should all deck out our stuff in silver for purification is good for everyone. Alkhestry... well, not sure on that one since known ingredients are all on Avernus, but frankly I would bet there are other worlds where there are applicable stuff. Nocturne for instance.
Also, while teaching something from one psychic tradition to another is very difficult, teaching new psykers who are still learning should be possible. We'll just need to send teachers along with the skills.
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
Yeah, but apparently they're not are they. Our psychic knowledge is seemingly useless so far to them. Not enough Psykers, too highly specialised and until proven otherwise we can't train them in an alternate style.
Runes don't work mindset apparently is a big deal for them alkestry too since no where else has the required concentration of ingredients and already known ingredients which work and we got confirmation that only works so Avernus only as well, warp echos anyone can do and as black ships are not an issue for q and c I get the feeling black ship research is't going to be important in the near future.
I've no issue being the small fish in a gigantic pond filled with sharks. My issue is being that fish without a means of helping large friendly fish.
A pilot fish for example.
As far as I can tell we're going to be a deep sea angler attaching on parasitically to the larger female only that's not even an accurate analogy at least in that case the angler fertilises eggs. We won't.
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We like, help them immensely by organizing this meeting via the Eldar and giving them all of our tech for not much in return. That is our contribution to this shindig, and after we delivered that there isn't really much we can do to help anymore, so its best to keep our head down.
That is hardly being a parasite.
- Location
- Spain
Well, we have already helped them immensely by giving them an immense amount of game-changing tech, and we were the ones who actually managed to put the idea together and organized the whole meeting. So I don´t feel like a parasite here, more like a small fish who has made the bigger fish a great favor, and the bigger fish is trying to repay us.
Aside from that we already have an immense game-changing tech for the next meeting, the Man of Stone STC, who we won´t be able to share in this meeting because of the dammed conservatives, but it will help all these policies immensely.
Enerael
We Shall Wake to Sanity
We are not the only ones with Admech conservatives. Keep in mind that for them, AIs are currently Satan.
Also, the common man would probably also be ill at ease with AI also, after millennia of hearing about the fall of DAoT.
So even after our Admech is capable of accepting the MoS, other polities probably wont be. In fact, I find it likely that we will take a rather large hit to our diplo when we start utilizing them.
But hopefully seeing their usefulness, after a few centuries without them causing large problems, they should start accepting them too.
Again, don't train their existing psykers. Send teachers, and help train their trainee psykers who haven't been inundated into a specific mindset. They won't get all the new stuff in a single generation, but in time they'll get it. Start small, grow big over time. There's still thousands of years before the Emperor returns, and this alliance is going to need to survive for that long. That some things will take time to integrate when transferred between polities is fine. (hell, with the tech we've just sent over, I expect it to take fifty years minimum for them to get all their planets fully upgraded, with a century or more being more likely)
- Location
- Australia
The Men of Iron were used for hundreds if not thousands of years without problems. Men of Stone operating for centuries without issue is exactly zero proof that they're safe.
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
Sure it is if we keep turning up.
This whole vote is about the future, threats are to emerge, if we're going to keep taking their stuff then we should at least have something else to give back, because frankly I don't see the debt in the same way.
We don't know that, we've received no answer on that have we.
It'd make sense that this would be the case, send over our own people but apparently its arrogant to assume we can do anything to help them in that regard.
HAH.
I doubt that. According to Mechanicus even high ranking magos don't know what Men of Iron really are.
I'd say that they never turned on humanity unless isolated for over 20,000 years is pretty good proof.
I'd like to point out that going by Deus Ex Machina the leader of Callamus is secretly Very pro-AI, running a lot of her industry via sapient limited proto-AI (with a proven record of being driven insane by scrapcode, even!) and allowing a combat focused Man of Stone to inhabit the fancy Dark Age Dreadnought they dug out from a Space Hulk. As long as you offer the MoS under the table they are almost certain to accept.
And the Imperium Secundus borders the Tau, who will have full AI in the future if they don't already have them, so they will want a proven design to close that technology gap. Men of Stone have a far better safety record than anything homebrewn or copied of Xenos.
The only member that i foresee actual trouble with is Quartus, and Vulcan seems to be very progressive.
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- Location
- Australia
Not good enough. That they did turn on humanity at all is damning. If isolation can get a Man of Stone to turn, then other things could too, like the Warp, or Chaos, or necrons, or the eldar (again), or C'tan, or orks.
Enerael
We Shall Wake to Sanity
How things are and how they appear often differs greatly, and yet appearances can have great power.
Also, we can divine why the MoI (and some MoS?) turned on humanity and make sure to either engineer that our of the STC or otherwise making sure that it doesn't happen again. This is something that we will need to do anyway.
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
Callamus of Deus Ex is not Callamus of embers, we don't know where she stands.
Vulkan is likely highly progressive, Ultramar's the problem.
If the level of proof you want is absolute it will never turn ever then we may as well save everyone the trouble and slit our own throats because anyone and anything can and will turn.
Since that is clearly completely fucking unreasonable how about we jump off that dumb horse eh?
I seem to remember you using a similar argument as to why we can't trust the Primarchs because all people are fallible and I say its still utter rubbish to consider.
The only singular example of a Man of Stone turning on humanity is one who turned out of 20,000 years of isolation. Aside from that all information and examples we have remained loyal.
We can fix issues that may arise with potential subversion.
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Enerael
We Shall Wake to Sanity
Demanding absolute loyalty of them is folly. That of a loyal citizen is about as much as we can hope and strive for.
20 000 years would drive humans insane too, and humans turn against humanity for far lesser reasons all the time.
Fair.
Ultramar is not going to be a problem. If the Destroyer doesn't arise they'll be put on the backfoot by the Taus AI advantage and desperate to catch up, if the Destroyer does arise they will be fighting alongside AI-forces for an extended time, diminishing prejudice. They are the most likely to want a piece of our MoS in my opinion. In fact, if we don't give it to them they'll probably develop their own by reverse engineering Tau examples.
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- Location
- Pale Blue Dot
"Humans have, at least once, turned on humans. They all need to go."
- Location
- Australia
Hm. I guess they would accept them.