- Location
- western US
just throwing out a tally for everyone
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The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up
- Thread starter Durin
- Start date
Because you can squash a sector-sized polity, pillage their forge-hives and steal their tech-priests much more easily.
The point is, they wouldn't need to spend many resources on it, because we're utterly tiny in comparison. Abaddon could send lieutenant of the lieutenant to gather fleets from surrounding polities, and we're dead short of burning honorbound.
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
Again I'm not sure I see that.
The main advantage I can see coming here has over attacking the people already in the neighbourhood is that there are not as many reinforcements.
I'd be unsurprised if our average level of defence is higher than average for the tech world of Callamus and Quartus, for the simple reason of we're smaller.
At the same time they're already concentrating force on them. Until we've actually offended Abaddon spite isn't a sufficient reason to come after us (he's an asshole, but he directs it well) when he's got targets more sufficiently worthy of his ire and easier for him to nab stuff off, assuming he even notices us at all.
- Location
- United states
You seem to once again be underestimating chaos and large numbers. As Durin has repeatedly warned us about having a tech advantage doesn't mean much when your enemies can drown you in sheer numbers. Just look at the surrounding Ork polity and see how much damage they can do if they united against us. Callamus and Quartus having such a large size means that they can afford to lose way more worlds for us and reaching their Core worlds is an extreme challange for the likes of Abbadon.
Honestly we are a way more easy target due to our size compared to the major human polities. For gods sake Durin outright said that at the moment we can't even deal with a level 3 Waagh on our own and would need to merge and uptech the Dragon's Nest to our current tech level to actually fight off that level of Waagh. Abbadon managed to hold his Empire against a freaking level 4 Waagh and took huge amounts of damage.
- Location
- Asia
[X] Argument to support future meetings- periodic technology transfer, good chance of being noticed
And a happy new year to everyone.
And a happy new year to everyone.
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
This wasn't about beating us it was about tech theft though.
Due to their decentralised structure I'd not be surprised if the Core World system we have just doesn't work.
- Location
- madison
on average yes, but when someone goes to war with callamus they likely attack a dozen or so worlds at a time. If they went to war with use they could attack one world at a time. Forces that callamus could easily squash could kick our ass. Remember, there are likely sub lords who don't even talk to abbadon more than a few times a decade who have more worlds than us. We are tiny, and the black imperuam is big. They could scrape together the forces to swamp us without major effort, something that abandon might think is worth it if he figures its the easiest way to get his hands on that shiny new tech or stop the pure powers from getting that frequent injection of warp lore.
- Location
- Toronto, Ontario(occasionally)
I don't know what to support.
- Location
- Alice Springs, Australia
1. to a limited extent yes
2. the Eldar refuse to participate
4. yes
yes
greater chance of your idea being agreed on
not incredibly as their psykers have developed along different lines
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
Well that's disappointing.
Also surprising and weird, but I guess we'll get more details next bit?
Speaking of which
@Durin
1. I assume the other polities have their own views on what happens in regards to the tech sharing, who is supporting what ATM?
2. Is it simple majority for what happens?
3. Do the Eldar get a vote seeing as they're the one facilitating?
- Location
- madison
ok, so, in that case staying in would purely be a matter if it was in the interests of the trust.
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
Are you asking the question?
Regardless I'm not entirely sure that the question was phrased well, nor that the answer answers much.
Psyker stuff is a broad category (do you mean black ship research or blink power) and without knowing how their psykers somehow differ from ours we can't judge who benefits from our stuff the most.
I trust Durin to know and make a correct judgement in this case, since he does almost all the time, but still.
It depends if chaos destructive frequencies work out. Because than we have a way to cleanse worlds.
- Location
- madison
with my vote we'd tap out, but would tap back in if we found something big, like chaos destructive frequencies or put together another navigator genome.
ok, so, custom vote.
[x] argue for some form of tech sharing, but that the trust stay out of it baring the discovery of something of great strategic value.
reason for the trust to tap out
we are the smallest power here, and are both unlikely to be able to meaningfully contribute to further technological developments, and have the least capacity to survive any retaliation. While our psyker research is indeed useful, I doubt it would be of great use to most present. Should we uncover something that would be of great strategic value, then we would rejoin whatever arrangement the other powers reach, but our odds of surviving long enough to find something of true value are much higher if we strive to avoid notice for now.
reason for the tech trade to continue.
the trust may be small enough that we need to avoid the gaze of giants, but no one else here is that small. each of your empires has different traditions, mindsets and needs. each of you will develop what you have differently. By counting to share your technologies and innovations you ensure that each of you will benefit from the insights of all of you. While the black imperium will likely learn of it in time, they are not so close to unification that a mere tech sharing alliance would drive them to truly unite, and whatever boon the despoiler can wring from that will be far outweighed by the bane of facing foes better equipped to drive back his forces, and I think it is ultimately to everyone benefit that the growth of the black imperium be checked.
the underlined portion is present only if the steller geography is such that at least 2 of the powers present are potentially threatened by abandon.
@Durin how would the above arguments play out?
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
Wait...what...
That doesn't make any sense. There's no reason to go for this vs not participating in the regular meetings, if anything its more disruptive as either we'll just have to wait for meetings or call ones at inopportune times, particularly since you seem to be overestimating how long it would take for us to create something major.
The blackships takes 24 years assuming it fails the first time, it takes only 8 for grand ork countering, 5 for the laws of the warp.
Any of those seem like they are major advances. Frankly I'm not entirely sure what Durin means when he says our knowledge is useless to the other polities. It makes no sense that knowing fundamental aspects of the warp, entire new superior means of doing choirs is somehow useless.
Regardless it just adding more complications and issues to something that doesn't need to be complex without reducing chance of getting spotted significantly which with option 2 is low enough as is cowardly as it is in my eyes.
I just don't see why you want to pull out, it only makes a lick of sense if everyone stops then there's no link to us in any form aside from the tech, but so long as trade is continuing there's a link, I mean to be honest there's a strong link anyway, they just need to get a hold of any of our designs and a powerful enough diviner, but still.
That's the thing I disagree.
I don't want Abaddon checked at least in the same way, he's known a known who is strong enough to fight against level 4s. I want him alive active and as powerful as possible beating down the other apocalyptic threats. It deals with him and keeps us safe.
Regardless this is only valuable to Quartius. They're the only ones near Abaddon, Callamus has Ophelia and Ultramar presumably has Blackheart.
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- Location
- madison
our advantage is not psytech, our advantage is in psychic techniques. psykers are both far less of a thing for them, and have developed down different lines. Songweaveing is likly going to be fairly useful for them, but look at what our next big pychic things are. runes, and Alkhestry. they don't have the number of psykers for runes to be super useful, and Alkhestry needs a steady supply of psychic reagents to be of use. For the next century or so we are unlikely to discover anything truly game-changing for them. I mean, the black ships are likely a thing they already have.
durin said if there is no trade there is a 10% chance of us being found, otherwise, the odds are pretty high. You seem to have this idea that crushing us would be a significant undertaking, it really really wouldn't. There are likely individual chaos lords or no major importance in the black imperium who could scrape together a force to wipe out the trust.
hmm, true. but there may be a link in that we would be giving them psychic techniques, even if they don't get a lot of use out of them.
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HanEmpire
Delicious
[X] Argument to support future meetings and periodic technology transfer, but upon discovery have the Eldar immediately begin passing on future advances.
-[X] Point out that every polity will take at least a century to properly digest the results of the first Tech Conference, and thus cannot take much advantage of the instantaneous Eldar tech-transfer for that duration.
@Durin does this work?
-[X] Point out that every polity will take at least a century to properly digest the results of the first Tech Conference, and thus cannot take much advantage of the instantaneous Eldar tech-transfer for that duration.
@Durin does this work?
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- Location
- Spain
[X] Argument to support having the Eldar pass on future advances- Quickest technology transfer, near certain chance of being noticed
- Location
- Alice Springs, Australia
1. general opinion seems to be for future meetings
2. more looking for total agreement
3. no but they get a veto over the first two
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
Our advantage is in psycic research in general, that falls into psytech, or do the black ships we're developing not count?
What about the Vortex Munitions we've already developed?
We can't even innovate properly, but do you think we can't make additional psytech between our psyker's knowledge and Tranth? I'd say we can once we finally deal with the rest of the conservatives.
Also on the black ships not as likely as I hoped. There are two types of Black Ship the ones pre Heresy which used Sisters of Silence and the ones created post heresy we are familiar with. The designs for the latter were held exclusively at their base Magadan. Little opportunity for them to be spotted by the Primarchs and while they may have examples of them I doubt any but the Primarchs have a chance in hell of reverse engineering one.
Besides you give the runes and alkhestry as the only things we've come up with excuse me are you forgetting the counter frequencies for the orks. With song weaving those are the biggest things we've created, the general ork ****er up and no I'd say only the Alkhestry is useless for the reasons you said. Runes are still applicable in a vast variety of situations, and you don't need too many psykers for them to be effective, given the number of psykers produced by Midgard I'd say somewhere more populated like Necromunda will produce more than enough for them to get plenty out of them.
No its 10% if all participants cut off all contact, no subsequent meetings between anyone nothing. That's 10%, presumably because it's more easily chalked up to the Eldar, but if they continue to have contact people are going to investigate further, they're going to find out WTF's going on and that includes us. The chance is likely lower than participating ourselves directly, but I'd put it at 40-60%, not 10.
And yes I do think we'd be a major undertaking for chaos to crush or at least too major an undertaking for them to crush without doing themselves enough damage to severely harm-selves as their rivals and other threats fall on them like a pack of wild animals and I remain unconvinced that even if Abaddon were to learn of us he'd consider us a target.
We're not his enemy, nor are we despite the arguments that have been presented to me the easiest target for him to raid for tech he will likely already possess at that point AND he will be incredibly busy with other business to say nothing of how screwed EVERYONE else is.
Look I am clearly getting too nutty about this so let me leave off for now by putting down how I feel.
Obviously I see the continued cooperation with the other polities in as strong a fashion as I can get to be the number 1 priority, but there's something deeper behind that at this point.
There is a sudden intense fear of what if Abaddon notices that wasn't there before and frankly its throwing me for a loop. We've done and agreed to things that have a hell of a lot less anonymity than this with far less thought or discussion, Nurgle's thrown being the obvious example.
A single good look from a Master Sorceror and the gig is up, we'll have earned the personal hate of a Great God of Chaos. That is a game over right there, and over and over and over again we've done things that have risked our "anonymity" even broken it completely, like now, but we did it because there's a greater advantage. If you'll pardon my Tijapan if it works I say keep doing it, especially when its not a guarantee of loosing it.
Abaddon and his cronies are not a Chaos God, and despite what you seem to be thinking random We are not a bug.
Unless Abaddon wants us dead we can cause a lot of pain and a lowlie is off dealing with us I wonder what's happening to their domain aside from being carved up like a christmas roast and that's right now.
Now this all only takes into account the now, but the now we know is not going to remain that way.
Lets take the one coming fastest and most relevant to this discussion the Dark Eldar.
What do you think is going to happen when Vect makes that deal.
Dark Eldar tech is going to be released En mass to chaos, and billions of Slaaneshi dark eldar are going to spill all over the galaxy.
I'm supposing here, but tell me if I'm wrong do you think they won't see Abaddon, the mon keigh and decide to knock him off his high horse, that they should be the ones ruling. They'll try and topple him, maybe even they'll succeed, maybe they won't, but they will keep him occupied for a ****ing long time, the rest of chaos too if I'm any judge.
And by that same metric, we must look to our own borders, and guess who has a daemon world in close proximity why its a slaaneshi world and who has the closest chaos polity to us also Slaaneshi.
To try and summaries
I think that not only do we have plenty of things to offer in terms of development, I think that if we are discovered we will be able to survive it and that at least for the mid option our chances of discovery are not nearly high enough to provoke this reaction, it would be hard, but we can manage.
I also think we desperately need as many advantages as we can get as the same issues that will save our skins from the big bastards in the event of discovery will not be leaving us alone in the mean time. I know Abaddon he's a known factor. I don't know the Chaos Eldar.
Now I'm loosing it completely.
@Durin
1. While you are here, to clarify what you meant by our psy stuff not being useful do you mean our psycic techniques like Songweaving and the Ork counter frequencies? Because I can't see that being the case?
2. To check the big three do have large psyker populations? Surely due to sheer numbers they have plenty of them?
3. Because it is relevant why is our psycic stuff not useful?
4. If we've nothing more to contribute than what we've already given why are we still here? If our psycic stuff is worthless then we may as well not be if we've nothing to contribute? Is it just a charity case?
5. What happens if there is no total agreement?
6. I assume the current detection chance does not take into account the emergence of future threats like the CDE (Chaos Dark Eldar) who will likely distract from investigations/attacks on us.
7. Can I also guess that the reason their traditions are so "different" is because Quartius focuses on use of special primarch locked abilities, Secundus uses Librarians too much and Callamus just uses psykers hooked up to machines or something? No room for normal humans like we have?
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- Location
- Alice Springs, Australia
1. I mean that your psykers are trained differently enough from theirs that you would basically have to redo most of their psyker training to use your techniques
2. yes
3. because training someone from one pychic tradition a power from an entrily different psychic tradition is really, really, hard, and the big threes traditions have diveraged enough from yours for that to be a problem
4. less charity more paying off the debt that feel they owe you from the massive amount of tech you just gave them
5. then either nothing or individuals deals between polities
6. it takes into account known future events like that but not unpredictable events like the Void Dragon breaking out or a tier 5 waaagh
7. pretty much