The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up

[Rakuhn]

The favors we have accrued from the Eldar could be used to wipe out the entire Trust many times over. The Trust isn't going to demand that we hand them over. Even ignoring the sheer idiocy of threatening the guy with the biggest gun in the room*, doing so would create a precedent where they could strip any polity of all of its resources without the polity having any say in the matter. The Trust isn't a hivemind, but a cooperative organization between nominally equal polities, and none of them would be happy to allow someone else to have that level of control over them. It would dissolve overnight.

Just about every single suggestion of what to do with the favors that has been posited so far has been at least beneficial to the Trust. They might have suggestions on what they think might be the best use of the favors, but I highly doubt that anyone is going to be upset at what we finally choose.

*Especially when everyone is cooperating to stave off significantly larger threats.

 

[Doomed Wombat]

I am curious if we would be able to gain access to the Black Library with one of our favors.

I do not know whether or not Durin has spoken of this yet so I hesitate to tag him.

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I do not believe he has, but by that same metric, I believe simply asking for access wouldn't get us much.

There's a lot of stuff in the library, probably better to be asking for specific info.

The favors we have accrued from the Eldar could be used to wipe out the entire Trust many times over. The Trust isn't going to demand that we hand them over. Even ignoring the sheer idiocy of threatening the guy with the biggest gun in the room, doing so would create a precedent where they could strip any polity of all of its resources without the polity having any say in the matter. The Trust isn't a hivemind, but a cooperative organization between nominally equal polities, and none of them would be happy to allow someone else to have that level of control over them. It would dissolve overnight.

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But, neither should us potentially having that gun give us the right to act like we can do whatever we want.

Us voluntarily giving up that kind of power and then being trusted enough for them to hand it right back I feel sends a far stronger message.

 

[DragonParadox]

And politics is the worlds most hated profession next to banker go figure.

I don't care about the power dynamics, what is best for the trust, for it to be kept together and grow stronger as a whole, what does not contribute to that, acting like a high handed ass wipe.

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And what if the conservatives want to block something that would be good for the trust, like say Vanaheim with their hatred of the Eldar? What happens when our definition of the common good conflicts with theirs and we argue with the other worlds over it. Do you really think they won't consider who really holds those favors, that it is only a Council decision at Avernus' sufferance?

The reality of politics will not go away that easily.

 

[Andres]

@Durin, what are the odds of bad things happening if Ridcully divines Chaos as a whole to help Lin with The Nature of (Chaos)?

 

[Doomed Wombat]

And what if the conservatives want to block something that would be good for the trust, like say Vanaheim with their hatred of the Eldar? What happens when our definition of the common good conflicts with theirs and we argue with the other worlds over it. Do you really think they won't consider who really holds those favors, that it is only a Council decision at Avernus' sufferance?

The reality of politics will not go away that easily.

Click to shrink...

Then we do what we've always done before and since, force it through if we have to, compromise if we can't, but always keep the ball rolling in the right direction.

If they want to give into that crap then that's their prerogative, we get to be the bigger men in this position.

If they want to embarrass themselves worrying about what we may or may not do then let them, we look like the devoted servant of the Trust they look like paranoid loonies.

However, if its a favour for the benefit of the trust I don't think you'll see much argument against, they're quite happy to take stuff from the Eldar and get Eldar killed.

They can be as "political" as they want, we don't need to stoop to their level to get what we want done.

In fact the only time we did it backfired horribly.

 

[adamashield]

Is important that we remember that the other people/groups/planets and etc. And that they also power multiplier when together (they give even bonus^^, like those sweet, sweet relic snipes).
We use relics weapons and gear from the 'dwarf' planet, the money from the planet with the highest population, we used in the past iron from the planet with those Jotun, we still use the advance material from two more advance groups in the Trust and the space industry of our greatest 'rivals' in order to fix our biggest ships. We all together are strong (even the 'small brother' that is the agriculture planet).

Now we are using this in a bigger scale, trading with other humans systems and (sane and good) xenos. So if a minor favor can make lets say vanaheim shipbuilding industry and is good enough compare with other stuff we could have using the favor? I say let they have more/better ships in order to us to live longer. Together we stand divide we fall (this is true even in the RL I believe).

And let face, if we can make more minor favor, then this is a better 'coin' than chaos cultist souls, because some of them were 'innocent' being corrupt by memetic chaos or controlled by demons and etc. After all every time our seer help them is more time to their seer make a evil bastard(s) get a bad time (tm) ^^.

 

[invictus1829]

@Durin
1. Would the Eldar be willing to give us access to the Black Library? If so, how much would it cost us?
2. If we were to ask the Eldar for all of the library's relevant information regarding the gods of chaos, how much would it cost? How much would an individual god cost?
3. How much would it cost to gain access to their information regarding high level psychic abilities?
4. Can we divine the birth of the Emperor? Does Ridcully see it as something that is safe or possible?
5. Can we divine Terra the moments before the Emperor's Death?

 

[DragonParadox]

Then we do what we've always done before and since, force it through if we have to, compromise if we can't, but always keep the ball rolling in the right direction.

If they want to give into that crap then that's their prerogative, we get to be the bigger men in this position.

If they want to embarrass themselves worrying about what we may or may not do then let them, we look like the devoted servant of the Trust they look like paranoid loonies.

However, if its a favour for the benefit of the trust I don't think you'll see much argument against, they're quite happy to take stuff from the Eldar and get Eldar killed.

Click to shrink...

Thinking about it in those terms would not be them being 'loonies' it would be entirely reasonable for any ruler worth the name and doubly so for one raised in the Imperium. On top of that look at Rotbart's reputation. Does that look like a man you should trust when he says he would never use the power given to him to fulfill his aims if he feels strongly enough about it?

 

[Rakuhn]

But, neither should us potentially having that gun give us the right to act like we can do whatever we want.

Us voluntarily giving up that kind of power and then being trusted enough for them to hand it right back I feel sends a far stronger message.

Click to shrink...

Us having that kind of power does not give us the right to use it against the Trust , nor to threaten the Trust into doing our bidding, true. But it does mean that we get the final say in how that power is used.

If we want to listen to the Trust's suggestions as to how to use it, that's fine. If we want to trade it away for political favors, that's fine. If we want to trade it away for increased rights for xenos, or for allowing Isha's worship, that's fine. If we want to trade it to increase the power of the Trust over it's members, that's fine. If we want to use it to help stop the invasion of the Trust, that's fine. If we want to use it to extend Lin's life, that's fine.

But pretending that it is something that is within the power of the Trust to demand, or to pretend that it is currently owed to the Trust and that by keeping it from them that we are acting as thieves, that's not fine.

 

[Durin]

Given you got the power from a deal with n external power which you technically don't have the right to do...

 

[random_npc]

my thoughts on the political gain of being able to offer useful services to the empire of ashes. there is a difference between using your influence from contributing and using it like a bludgeon. We likely will be doing the first, because using the second is bad for the trust. If the council asks us to use a favor for a thing we will likely do so, and we are likely to keep the security council involved in the use of major favors. We won't shy away from this strengthening our position, but we won't explicitly use it to try and bully the other worlds.

 

[adamashield]

Is more of a trade of 'shinnies', I mean what is stopping us to use (in the future) a minor favor to help a other human faction and get some stuff of the other human group. And again everything that we make that make the other planets of trust strong is a good thing. Specially so that we can't do all the (metaphoric) actions that the Trust make in the background.

Hell if the Eldar have a genetic treatment to make better knights soldiers I would like that, if they have better tools to send to the 'dwarfs' I would like that (not that the 'dwarfs' would for this) and etc.

After all at some point the people of Avernus will receive the Full rage of at last one of the chaos goods. and when that time comes I want as much meatshields/ships and gear as we can possible throw at the problem.

 

[Doomed Wombat]

Thinking about it in those terms would not be them being 'loonies' it would be entirely reasonable for any ruler worth the name and doubly so for one raised in the Imperium. On top of that look at Rotbart's reputation. Does that look like a man you should trust when he says he would never use the power given to him to fulfill his aims if he feels strongly enough about it?

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Why?

We're the ones who'd have handed over official authority to the Council. As far as most people should be concerned that is the final word on the matter and if the people who are our known political rivals are continuing to make a fuss that seems more partisan than actual concern no?

Yes, given his ruthlessness is a ruthlessness for the trust before all else. He's willing to do whatever it takes to protect the trust before all else. That includes acts both ruthless, but also compromising (after all we're trusted on the council to come up with the compromise positions.)

We've had chances and options to do things like this in the past. Back when the Trust was founded we could have used our technological dominance to set ourselves above the rest of the subsector, but we didn't instead we were generous.

Again with the Neo-astropaths and more.

We've repeatedly turned down the chance to force the trust to conform to our desires via a dominant advantage, and instead have chosen to help it over all.

I'd like to think we've got some trust from that.

But pretending that it is something that is within the power of the Trust to demand, or to pretend that it is currently owed to the Trust, that's not fine.

Click to shrink...

Why not? There's no situation I can fathom where we spend influence that isn't for the greater good of the trust as a whole. For pretty much all intents and purposes it effectively is the Trust's and if it did demand something we'd probably agree to it barring something incredibly stupid like leave us alone.

And then of course there's the constitution...small issue that.

 

[Red Bovine]

Us having that kind of power does not give us the right to use it against the Trust , nor to threaten the Trust into doing our bidding, true. But it does mean that we get the final say in how that power is used.

If we want to listen to the Trust's suggestions as to how to use it, that's fine. If we want to trade it away for political favors, that's fine. If we want to trade it away for increased rights for xenos, or for allowing Isha's worship, that's fine. If we want to trade it to increase the power of the Trust over it's members, that's fine. If we want to use it to help stop the invasion of the Trust, that's fine. If we want to use it to extend Lin's life, that's fine.

But pretending that it is something that is within the power of the Trust to demand, or to pretend that it is currently owed to the Trust and that by keeping it from them that we are acting as thieves, that's not fine

Click to shrink...

Completely agree with this, while I'm completely against acting like a total asshole about the debt we have I believe that said debts are rightfully ours since the Avernites were the ones that risked their assets. If any other polity had said debts than I would absolutely agree that it is theirs alone to spend as long as they aren't assholes about it. Though if it affects the Trust as a whole in a major way might want to consult them first since they would be potentially affected.

 

[DragonParadox]

Why?

We're the ones who'd have handed over official authority to the Council. As far as most people should be concerned that is the final word on the matter and if the people who are our known political rivals are continuing to make a fuss that seems more partisan than actual concern no?

Yes, given his ruthlessness is a ruthlessness for the trust before all else. He's willing to do whatever it takes to protect the trust before all else. That includes acts both ruthless, but also compromising (after all we're trusted on the council to come up with the compromise positions.)

We've had chances and options to do things like this in the past. Back when the Trust was founded we could have used our technological dominance to set ourselves above the rest of the subsector, but we didn't instead we were generous.

Again with the Neo-astropaths and more.

We've repeatedly turned down the chance to force the trust to conform to our desires via a dominant advantage, and instead have chosen to help it over all.

I'd like to think we've got some trust from that.

Click to shrink...

All of that can be explained as 'the trust provides the strongest platform for strengthening Avernus'. Considering Avernus' reputation for being standoffish and arrogant jumping to the conclusion that we just love the abstract concept of 'the Trust' out of idealism seems less than realistic.

 

[Adventwolf]

Man didn't expect my post to create this much of a debate. The way I see it is like @Doomed Wombat said there is nothing we would use the favors for that wouldn't be for the benefit of the Imperial Trust anyways. Besides like Durin said we technically aren't allowed to do diplomacy with outside powers by ourselves anyway.

 

[Doomed Wombat]

All of that can be explained as 'the trust provides the strongest platform for strengthening Avernus'. Considering Avernus' reputation for being standoffish and arrogant jumping to the conclusion that we just love the abstract concept of 'the Trust' out of idealism seems less than realistic.

Click to shrink...

Not everyone is as cynic, a pattern from the last 300 years of prioritising the Trust first and not pushing our agenda even when we could have used our various crucial assets would indicate to most people that maybe we're genuine.

Also Avernites are also noted for their patriotism to the Trust albeit coloured by Deathworlder's arrogance. Also standoffish? Arrogant yes, but not standoffish if anything the opposite Avernites are far too friendly for most people.

My apologise I shouldn't have posted that.

 

[Red Bovine]

Alright we surrender the power.

Seriously almost the big thing of the quest is that standing together lets people win against insurmountable odds, I'm not ripping the Trust apart over this.

Yeesh and people say power corrupts.

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Have to point out it's literally one guy who is kind of being an idiot about this by doing the thing that causes chaos to constantly fail. From what I gathered most everyone agrees that said reasoning is idiotic and pretty harmful to us in the long run. I mean if the rest of the major human powers learn that we fucked over our own allies for power there is no f-ing way they are going to trust us.

 

[DragonParadox]

Not everyone is as cynical as you are, a pattern from the last 300 years of prioritising the Trust first and not pushing our agenda even when we could have used our various crucial assets would indicate to most people that maybe we're genuine.

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So you are saying I'm more cynical than centuries-old politicians who cut their teeth on Imperial politics?

To be honest I don't think I can even conceive that level of cynicism.

 

[invictus1829]

Besides like Durin said we technically aren't allowed to do diplomacy with outside powers by ourselves anyway.

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Don't think if it as diplomacy! Think of it as... and agreement between two close friends.

I mean, Ridcully and Eldrad are best friends right? If some Eldar just happen to decapitate Turoq I'm sure it's just because they are doing us a favor. What's a little murder between friends am I right?

 

[Romans]

@Durin would a blank primarch ever been feasible, or is their inenate psychic power too coupled in the existence of a primarch? Not that emps would make one probably but just curious.

 

[xXxBlueViperxXx]

All of that can be explained as 'the trust provides the strongest platform for strengthening Avernus'. Considering Avernus' reputation for being standoffish and arrogant jumping to the conclusion that we just love the abstract concept of 'the Trust' out of idealism seems less than realistic.

Click to shrink...

You do remember that a large majority of Avernite culture is being able to trust your fellow man to cover your back.

You do remember while Avernites have a stereotype for being arrogant they are also not stupid nor are they willing to betray the people they trust unless they have gone chaos.

You do remember that even with the reputation we are highly respected in pretty much all of the trust because we are willing to help out.

If we let political differences stop us from being able to the rest of the trust we have fundamentally failed to do our job and we become no better than the shit show of an imperium.

 

[DragonParadox]

You do remember that a large majority of Avernite culture is being able to trust your fellow man to cover your back.

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Your allies being 'other Avernites' in this cultural context. Siege mentalities breed narrow loyalties, like the fact that most of the population would probably follow Rotbart even if he fell to Chaos.

 

[Durin]

@Durin would a blank primarch ever been feasible, or is their inenate psychic power too coupled in the existence of a primarch? Not that emps would make one probably but just curious.

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Before Aria you would have said no

 

[Doomed Wombat]

So you are saying I'm more cynical than centuries-old politicians who cut their teeth on Imperial politics?

To be honest I don't think I can even conceive that level of cynicism.

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I'm also saying that's entirely too close to sniping for my tastes so I am sorry for saying that.

However the point remains yes I do, especially since most of them are actually pretty young and didn't cut their teeth on it as much as you'd expect (or are Granalf).

Your allies being 'other Avernites' in this cultural context. Siege mentalities breed narrow loyalties, like the fact that most of the population would probably follow Rotbart even if he fell to Chaos.

Click to shrink...

It also breeds large scale ones as well. People remember Midgardians dying in droves post the first incursion, that kind of thing leaves lasting impacts.

@Durin repost questions?