- Location
- Australia
Other people can do that just fine. Frederick would provide no information that other people can't give.
-
Going forward, links to content from Twitter (now X) will no longer be embedded. Pre-existing links should not be affected.
The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up
- Thread starter Durin
- Start date
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
I'm sorry do we have another paragon of martial with high learning and has been directly involved in re-figuring out the military applications of these new technologies while dealing with limited resources that I am unaware of?
We don't want people to present things "fine" we want to present them "best" and Rotbart is the best, we want them to know exactly what they are getting and how best to apply them with as little time wasted from acquisition to implementation.
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- Location
- Africa
Rotbart has that malus for meeting new worlds so its kinda better to send some one else
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
- Location
- Australia
No. Having "another" such paragon by definition means that there is "one of" such paragons to begin with, which we do not. Avernus did not have limited resources under which it had to be creative in its use of military technologies, and figuring out the military applications was done primarily - if not entirely - by whoever our Munitorum heads were. Personal Attention usually wasn't - possibly was never - used on that action.
As for fine/best, it really doesn't matter. There's a ceiling to how well you can inform someone of this kind of thing. 2+2=4 isn't somehow "better told" by a math professor than a kindergarten teacher. There's no highly complex hidden secrets to tech implementation that only a paragon of war can figure out and explain to people. We just share the data/instructions/results we've collected over our time doing that stuff.
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
Forgive me, but I must be forgetting the constant balancing of budgets we've been doing to make all this stuff work, and who do you think our munitorum heads work most extensively with?
There's a reason we held off designing the military portions of the vault until Rotbart could do it, he's really good at it.
Really? Do you think someone as good as Archmagos asshat is able to explain just as well the best military applications of the technologies we've found, on the scale these polities operate at, the trillions of variations of their functions, applications and others. Do you really think that, the two are in anyway equal in this regard?
You are flanderising the hell out of this issue, this isn't 2+2=4 this is "how do you lot speedily apply vasts portions of a tech base to empires stretching over vast portions of Segmentums who are under constant attack from all sides and within."
Two segmentums in the case of Imperium Quartius.
These are military issues that are vast in their complexity and mind boggling in their scope and I can't think of anyone else who can do a better job of getting across the best ways of suggesting how to do so best than Rotbart.
He won't be perfect, there are Primarchs in the room and if either Tertius and the Forge Realm doesn't have their own Paragons of Martial I'll eat a hat, but that just means they'll pick up what he says and apply it to themselves in record time, rather than having to parse through the ramblings of an amateur and fill in the blanks on their own.
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
Yeah, I already got a good reason for why Rotbart shouldn't go anyway.
Wait what...well that's odd.
Edit here it is
True...
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Melta Bolts
- Location
- Australia
@Durin, here's a tech idea that should be within our trading partners' technological ability to have.
Melta Bolts
Bolt weapons had been used in the Imperium for over ten thousand years, since before the beginning of the Great Crusade, even. They were used by many of the nascent Imperium's warriors, from soldiers of the Imperial Army, to the Adeptus Astartes, to even the Primarchs themselves. The impaler weapons found on Avernus, however, would all but obsolete weapon. Cheaper to make, cheaper to supply, and with greater performance all around, the impaler was superior to the bolter in almost every way.
The only area in which bolt weapons are superior is ammunition variety; impalers are limited to solid shot ammunition types, while bolters have a variety of ammunition types to choose from. Examples include stalker silenced rounds for quietly dispatching foes at a distance, psycannon bolts to penetrate daemonic hide and force fields, and dragonfire rounds to hit enemies behind cover. This versatility in effect means that bolt weapons could still sometimes be found in use even in places where impaler weapons were common.
One type of bolt would not be rediscovered until long after the Imperium's death. This bolt is the melta bolt, which incorporates melta technology similar to that found on melta macrocannon rounds to pierce heavily armoured targets. Because of the power of melta technology, the damage and armour penetration of melta bolts are superior to that of even impaler rounds. It suffers from the traditional disadvantages of bolts as a whole such as the high technical and resource costs to produce them, but are otherwise no worse than standard bolts or impaler rounds and could be used in the same way as those ammunition types. Any fighting force with access to these bolts would have a clear advantage over those who lacked them.
Melta Bolts
Bolt weapons had been used in the Imperium for over ten thousand years, since before the beginning of the Great Crusade, even. They were used by many of the nascent Imperium's warriors, from soldiers of the Imperial Army, to the Adeptus Astartes, to even the Primarchs themselves. The impaler weapons found on Avernus, however, would all but obsolete weapon. Cheaper to make, cheaper to supply, and with greater performance all around, the impaler was superior to the bolter in almost every way.
The only area in which bolt weapons are superior is ammunition variety; impalers are limited to solid shot ammunition types, while bolters have a variety of ammunition types to choose from. Examples include stalker silenced rounds for quietly dispatching foes at a distance, psycannon bolts to penetrate daemonic hide and force fields, and dragonfire rounds to hit enemies behind cover. This versatility in effect means that bolt weapons could still sometimes be found in use even in places where impaler weapons were common.
One type of bolt would not be rediscovered until long after the Imperium's death. This bolt is the melta bolt, which incorporates melta technology similar to that found on melta macrocannon rounds to pierce heavily armoured targets. Because of the power of melta technology, the damage and armour penetration of melta bolts are superior to that of even impaler rounds. It suffers from the traditional disadvantages of bolts as a whole such as the high technical and resource costs to produce them, but are otherwise no worse than standard bolts or impaler rounds and could be used in the same way as those ammunition types. Any fighting force with access to these bolts would have a clear advantage over those who lacked them.
Malignant assistance
- Location
- lurking
Just dropping in and leaving something. It was not originally intended for public consumption, but since I've got it I might as well post it. Likely too late to really do anything, but who cares?
Malignant assistance
In the aftermath of the second incursion, many among the citizens of Avernus succumbed to promises of power, revenge on the unfair life and world that tormented them day to day and fulfilment in the name of the blood god. And in the wake of his warriors, other cults saw their chance to rise. Soon, numerous cults grew among the population like festering tumours, and once again Avernus waged war on its own.
Wizened by past experience, they send out not just the hardened Arbites, but also the soldiers that had only recently fought the daemons of the incursion, and the witch hunters. Their duty was solemn, but they were prepared to do what was necessary. Among them, the living legends of Avernus were sent out, to lead through both might and mind. Even the creatures of the Hellworld, decimated by the Incursion, were seen occasionally moving with strange purpose against targets that would later turn out to be servants of Chaos.
Still, the memory of the crimson skies was seared into the memory of the populace, and many could not resist the call of Chaos. Tens of millions rose against their protectors, and soon the Hives of Avernus were stained in blood.
But, among the cults, another force grew. Like a tumour within a tumour, there were those enraptured by chaos, but hateful in their hearts towards the ruinous powers that had stolen their lives. And so, within the cults, some turned again, and found another force that guided them, empowered them to unleash their hatred towards what they had become. Their numbers were few, but rumour of their acts soon spread among the cults, fuelled by terror.
Those who revelled in the name of she who thirsts were left with their nerves scorched by sorcery, unable to feel anything. Those following the abomination were left scattered by unknown attackers, isolated from the ones to order them and driven towards the Arbites with their minds and cohesion broken. Those who bore foul plagues found themselves healed, only to be executed soon after, promises of eternity in solitude accompanying them into the eternal beyond. The warriors of the blood god were hit hardest in retribution for their connection to the root of the incursion. They were crippled by the dozens, left to be found by the authorities unable to move as much as a muscle, begging for a chance to die fighting and being denied it.
Even in the great uprisings, the traitors were among the cults. Rituals were disrupted as the sacrifices turned on the sorcerers; formations broke as soldiers turned on their brethren, not even bothering to evade fire as they killed as many as they could. One Arbite still tells of storming a command post, only to find an acolyte standing over the cooling carcass of her former leader, taking care to put eleven shots into his back before turning towards the Arbites, smiling as she received death.
Of course, rumours spread, trying to make sense of these occurrences, but they were few and clueless. No Avernite would willingly believe in something this convenient happening without suspecting some kind of trap, but none could find any sense in the twice-betrayers actions. Many decided to just attribute it to the usual madness of Chaos, and in a sense they were right.
In the aftermath of the madness of the cult outbreak, not much is to be learned from this. Some claimed the planet had revealed another of its many weapons, others speculate Avernus had drawn the attention of another ruinous force, willing to exterminate the competition before turning on the civilians as all of them do. The only ones who found a hint of the truth were those that had served for a long time and had witnessed something similar happening in a past campaign.
But in the end, the only ones able to answer this question took the answer with them as they passed by the hands of their brethren, and sometimes their own.
I'm supposed to tag this @Durin , right?
( inspired by some Malal fluff)
Malignant assistance
In the aftermath of the second incursion, many among the citizens of Avernus succumbed to promises of power, revenge on the unfair life and world that tormented them day to day and fulfilment in the name of the blood god. And in the wake of his warriors, other cults saw their chance to rise. Soon, numerous cults grew among the population like festering tumours, and once again Avernus waged war on its own.
Wizened by past experience, they send out not just the hardened Arbites, but also the soldiers that had only recently fought the daemons of the incursion, and the witch hunters. Their duty was solemn, but they were prepared to do what was necessary. Among them, the living legends of Avernus were sent out, to lead through both might and mind. Even the creatures of the Hellworld, decimated by the Incursion, were seen occasionally moving with strange purpose against targets that would later turn out to be servants of Chaos.
Still, the memory of the crimson skies was seared into the memory of the populace, and many could not resist the call of Chaos. Tens of millions rose against their protectors, and soon the Hives of Avernus were stained in blood.
But, among the cults, another force grew. Like a tumour within a tumour, there were those enraptured by chaos, but hateful in their hearts towards the ruinous powers that had stolen their lives. And so, within the cults, some turned again, and found another force that guided them, empowered them to unleash their hatred towards what they had become. Their numbers were few, but rumour of their acts soon spread among the cults, fuelled by terror.
Those who revelled in the name of she who thirsts were left with their nerves scorched by sorcery, unable to feel anything. Those following the abomination were left scattered by unknown attackers, isolated from the ones to order them and driven towards the Arbites with their minds and cohesion broken. Those who bore foul plagues found themselves healed, only to be executed soon after, promises of eternity in solitude accompanying them into the eternal beyond. The warriors of the blood god were hit hardest in retribution for their connection to the root of the incursion. They were crippled by the dozens, left to be found by the authorities unable to move as much as a muscle, begging for a chance to die fighting and being denied it.
Even in the great uprisings, the traitors were among the cults. Rituals were disrupted as the sacrifices turned on the sorcerers; formations broke as soldiers turned on their brethren, not even bothering to evade fire as they killed as many as they could. One Arbite still tells of storming a command post, only to find an acolyte standing over the cooling carcass of her former leader, taking care to put eleven shots into his back before turning towards the Arbites, smiling as she received death.
Of course, rumours spread, trying to make sense of these occurrences, but they were few and clueless. No Avernite would willingly believe in something this convenient happening without suspecting some kind of trap, but none could find any sense in the twice-betrayers actions. Many decided to just attribute it to the usual madness of Chaos, and in a sense they were right.
In the aftermath of the madness of the cult outbreak, not much is to be learned from this. Some claimed the planet had revealed another of its many weapons, others speculate Avernus had drawn the attention of another ruinous force, willing to exterminate the competition before turning on the civilians as all of them do. The only ones who found a hint of the truth were those that had served for a long time and had witnessed something similar happening in a past campaign.
But in the end, the only ones able to answer this question took the answer with them as they passed by the hands of their brethren, and sometimes their own.
I'm supposed to tag this @Durin , right?
( inspired by some Malal fluff)
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Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
QUESTION! Are these meant to be better than Vengeance Rounds/Stable Flux Core Rounds?
- Location
- Australia
- Location
- Toronto, Ontario(occasionally)
Been reading a paper on the role of the bayonet in modern warfare, and why no other organization followed the example of the US Army in abolishing bayonet training and inclusion in their kit, even the US marine corps.
They bring up the point that the modern soldier must disperse and take cover to survive enemy fire, and in doing so he isolates himself from the sight of his comrades and leaves himself bereft of the feeling of Espirit de Corps that is required to sustain an advance under enemy fire, as there is no Corps around for him to feel an Espirit of.
In this way modern warfare places a more severe strain on the morale of the men than any previous form of warfare, being able to instantly crush the morale of any unit by making the men feel isolated or completely alone and threatened by the enemy, and the role of junior officers or unusually brave men being to reestablish contact with their units and rebuild morale enough that an advance can continue in the face of even light opposition that would otherwise stall a demoralized unit.
The argument is made that even though it is out performed by firepower, morale power is in some ways even more important than it was before the age of mechanized warfare, as to bring that firepower to bear you require sufficient morale power to sustain the advances needed to put your weapons in position while under enemy fire.
edit: there is a tension between the tactical requirement to disperse, and the morale requirement to group together.
It argues the following: this is why the bayonet is kept on, it is a symbol to the man using it that reminds him to advance aggressively(edit: and reminds him in a Pavlovian manner of his most wildly agressive moments in training), it is also why squad based tactics are so prominent instead of individual tactics or pair tactics(or 'group of whoever you run into while advancing as ordered' tactics), as when people are that isolated they almost always lose heart and cease to advance, or surrender to the enemy, or get sloppy enough that no amount of artificial assistance or training is enough to compensate for the reduced situational awareness and willingness to engage the enemy of the combat unit(individual or squad).
We use squad tactics at least in part because it is less of a problem to lose whole squads at once to single artillery shells than it is to lose the sense of Espirit de Corps.
Expanding and applying to our situation, I suspect that Abomination armies could be far more dangerous than they are, with the nature of their corruption and mutations leveraged through the lens of innovative new tactics.
Luckily that would require innovation and changes to tradition, it is unlikely to happen outside of their most elite formations.
We could also apply this to our situation, using the HUD displays our soldiers are equipped with or telepathic comms across elite units, to let them keep track of their fellows and allow us to open our formations more and reduce damage to ranged weapons.
Edit: Bam, a control based use of a telepathy choir to reduce casualties from ranged attacks. (covering illusions are probably better, but it's maybe worth looking at when we give a choir general orders like "reduce the amount of ranged damage these units take")
It'd consist of an illusory sense of comradery, togetherness, and whatever anti-aloneness is, combined with awareness of the actual positions of their comrades, and orders to open formations more than normal, the rest can be handled by Vox.
They bring up the point that the modern soldier must disperse and take cover to survive enemy fire, and in doing so he isolates himself from the sight of his comrades and leaves himself bereft of the feeling of Espirit de Corps that is required to sustain an advance under enemy fire, as there is no Corps around for him to feel an Espirit of.
In this way modern warfare places a more severe strain on the morale of the men than any previous form of warfare, being able to instantly crush the morale of any unit by making the men feel isolated or completely alone and threatened by the enemy, and the role of junior officers or unusually brave men being to reestablish contact with their units and rebuild morale enough that an advance can continue in the face of even light opposition that would otherwise stall a demoralized unit.
The argument is made that even though it is out performed by firepower, morale power is in some ways even more important than it was before the age of mechanized warfare, as to bring that firepower to bear you require sufficient morale power to sustain the advances needed to put your weapons in position while under enemy fire.
edit: there is a tension between the tactical requirement to disperse, and the morale requirement to group together.
It argues the following: this is why the bayonet is kept on, it is a symbol to the man using it that reminds him to advance aggressively(edit: and reminds him in a Pavlovian manner of his most wildly agressive moments in training), it is also why squad based tactics are so prominent instead of individual tactics or pair tactics(or 'group of whoever you run into while advancing as ordered' tactics), as when people are that isolated they almost always lose heart and cease to advance, or surrender to the enemy, or get sloppy enough that no amount of artificial assistance or training is enough to compensate for the reduced situational awareness and willingness to engage the enemy of the combat unit(individual or squad).
We use squad tactics at least in part because it is less of a problem to lose whole squads at once to single artillery shells than it is to lose the sense of Espirit de Corps.
Expanding and applying to our situation, I suspect that Abomination armies could be far more dangerous than they are, with the nature of their corruption and mutations leveraged through the lens of innovative new tactics.
Luckily that would require innovation and changes to tradition, it is unlikely to happen outside of their most elite formations.
We could also apply this to our situation, using the HUD displays our soldiers are equipped with or telepathic comms across elite units, to let them keep track of their fellows and allow us to open our formations more and reduce damage to ranged weapons.
Edit: Bam, a control based use of a telepathy choir to reduce casualties from ranged attacks. (covering illusions are probably better, but it's maybe worth looking at when we give a choir general orders like "reduce the amount of ranged damage these units take")
It'd consist of an illusory sense of comradery, togetherness, and whatever anti-aloneness is, combined with awareness of the actual positions of their comrades, and orders to open formations more than normal, the rest can be handled by Vox.
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- Location
- Toronto, Ontario(occasionally)
Going back to Archmagos Prime Sahr, I think he could be useful, though maybe not right now.
Once we're secure enough to send expeditions out into our local area we could try opportunistic raiding of Abomination forge worlds, followed by purifying anything we get with that Golden Bird power and reverse engineering it.
If he falls to the Abomination then he falls, but will be on watch as a risk after any raid anyway, if he doesn't then great, we don't have to replace our Archmagos again and maybe he'll have a sufficiently traumatic experience to make him reconsider his position on what exactly hereteks are now that he's fought some overly traditional ones up close and personal.
It would require that we have actual information on any especially rare Archeotech that the local forge worlds used to hold, do you know who has that info? That one uncorrupted forge realm we heard mentioned as a notable minor that stemmed from someone's polity Omake.
We should also consider trading them for a bunch more tech priests and whatever material support they can spare in exchange for our technology.
Once we're secure enough to send expeditions out into our local area we could try opportunistic raiding of Abomination forge worlds, followed by purifying anything we get with that Golden Bird power and reverse engineering it.
If he falls to the Abomination then he falls, but will be on watch as a risk after any raid anyway, if he doesn't then great, we don't have to replace our Archmagos again and maybe he'll have a sufficiently traumatic experience to make him reconsider his position on what exactly hereteks are now that he's fought some overly traditional ones up close and personal.
It would require that we have actual information on any especially rare Archeotech that the local forge worlds used to hold, do you know who has that info? That one uncorrupted forge realm we heard mentioned as a notable minor that stemmed from someone's polity Omake.
We should also consider trading them for a bunch more tech priests and whatever material support they can spare in exchange for our technology.
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- Location
- Australia
- Pronouns
- He/They
Personal Reading-Progress Update: Still don't have any Guardsmen to try to paint up as Helltroopers yet, but I'm still unsure about what I could do to identify them as Helltroopers rather than just some rando Guards with camo so I'm not too torn up about that.
Also I stand corrected about the quest being easy, the first Waaagh attack was a pretty legitimate threat and the Deldar campaign was fucking brutal. I still kinda feel like the players are more powerful than they should be, but I'll hold my tongue about them being OP from now on. Btw, I think I got whiplash from the appearance of the Quartok.
Sucks that Freya died, but at least it opened up possibilities for the one true waifu of the Avernus Planetmind, right?
Also I stand corrected about the quest being easy, the first Waaagh attack was a pretty legitimate threat and the Deldar campaign was fucking brutal. I still kinda feel like the players are more powerful than they should be, but I'll hold my tongue about them being OP from now on. Btw, I think I got whiplash from the appearance of the Quartok.
Sucks that Freya died, but at least it opened up possibilities for the one true waifu of the Avernus Planetmind, right?
- Location
- Australia
Please keep occasionally writing these progress updates. They're good reads.
Agreed; always nice to get a first impression of everything that's happened over the past few years.
- Location
- Toronto, Ontario(occasionally)
So I actually studied this in high school. We had to do computer modeling of ecosystems for one of my classes. I discovered that terraforming is really really hard, because the plant population grows out of control by predating the herbivores and the herbivore population grows out of control by predating the predators, and then the predators grow out of control by feeding on the out of control herbivores. You're lucky when the only thing that goes wrong is that the introduction of predators wipes out all animal life when you're modeling ecosystems, several times I wasn't even sure how I wiped out the plants, eventually you develop a sense of timing for it and work it out by instinct, but I never really consciously understood it.
Anyway, we (probably)won't have that problem here. I propose that we figure out low risk methods of attaching explosives to or using poisons on predators(traps? Poisoned cybernetic bait?) then we stockpile the means to suddenly kill a lot of predators, to encourage the prey population to grow out of control, then make the predator population grow out of control.
But we only do this when precognition predicts facing an invasion by enemies of Avernus, like Chaos or Necrons.
We also need to consider things like wildlife veterancy and whether or not it irritates whatever force is coordinating all of the wildlife at once.
Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
On one hand it isn't as simple as it looks but on the other hand you have experts managing it, who ought to have the skills to ensure it actually is as simple as it looks.
A Few Pages of Achievements
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
His Most Loyal Sons: Meet the Primarchs
The Reclaimers of Old: Meet the Forge Empire of Callamus
None can hide: Spy on one of the three sneakiest beings in 40K
The Gates Run Red: Survive a second Incursion
The Slaughterhouse stalls: Survive with most of the population intact again.
Learn from your mistakes: Do the clean up properly.
View the Summit: Meet several transendendents.
Mutual cooperation: Work with the Eldar to help humanity.
Dejavue: Loose two of the same type of characters within turns of one another.
The Party Stops: Complete the Rosklide expedition.
Admech's Romance: Rebuild the Well of Urd as an Ark Mechanicus.
Beyond Impossible: Have a character survive the Caverns.
The Highest Orders: Meet a Great One of Avernus.
In the Darkest Depths: Meet the Radience
You...you're alright: Make friends with an Avernite species.
STOP BEING STUPID!!: Meet and beat the dumbest warboss ever.
Immortality ****ING SUCKS: Make Minev almost unkillable.
@Durin some achievement ideas.
The Reclaimers of Old: Meet the Forge Empire of Callamus
None can hide: Spy on one of the three sneakiest beings in 40K
The Gates Run Red: Survive a second Incursion
The Slaughterhouse stalls: Survive with most of the population intact again.
Learn from your mistakes: Do the clean up properly.
View the Summit: Meet several transendendents.
Mutual cooperation: Work with the Eldar to help humanity.
Dejavue: Loose two of the same type of characters within turns of one another.
The Party Stops: Complete the Rosklide expedition.
Admech's Romance: Rebuild the Well of Urd as an Ark Mechanicus.
Beyond Impossible: Have a character survive the Caverns.
The Highest Orders: Meet a Great One of Avernus.
In the Darkest Depths: Meet the Radience
You...you're alright: Make friends with an Avernite species.
STOP BEING STUPID!!: Meet and beat the dumbest warboss ever.
Immortality ****ING SUCKS: Make Minev almost unkillable.
@Durin some achievement ideas.
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- Location
- ferreries
NO. God no. Our mountains are the entrance to the caverns, you know, the place that avernites think only crazy suicidal people go willingly. Considering how time and space seem to warp down there it wouldn't surprise me if any tunel we made spontaneously became conected to the caverns while an army was marching inside it for example.
- Location
- To the left. No, not there, the other left.
Nah we have entire underground rail system across all of our territory. Reaching caverns by simply digging down is really hard since they are not really down as much as, err, sideways.
- Location
- ferreries
Do the underground rail system really go under the mountain already? If so i guess my worries are but a misunderstanding about how the caverns work but i can't remember when we did that, could you please refresh my memory?