The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up

Investigate the Sea?

  • Yes

    Votes: 593 80.4%
  • No

    Votes: 145 19.6%

  • Total voters
    738
Because they were so powerful the fight that would have resulted would have likely absolutely crippled the Trust. It was also impractical in that the AdMech literally had the only experts on tech at the wider level. It would be the equivelent of killing off every single tech expert except said tech expert was in charge of all the military and infrastructure tech.
Except the Admech aren't the only experts. Muspelheim's got experts that aren't Admech and are clearly better than the Admech.

Midgard's economy must be full of make-work jobs that produce little/nothing, but work to keep the population from getting restless. Without that, I doubt even the biggest economic stimulus packages could make a dent in the unemployment figures.
Even make work jobs are generally actually producing something though. Just putting them all to work in the most basic of factories would give considerable output.

the reason you did not pull the trigger as it would have resulted in an uprising of all of the people who do things like maintain your ship reactors
alfheim produces 50k em to Midgards 2K as well as large amounts of Proeuthm and food
everyone can, they just have to spend centuries working up to it and start with a massive cash injection to allow them to begin
Muspelheim manages to maintain their stealth fleet without Admech though.

Why is it that Alfheim produces so much EM compared to Midgard though? Midgard has tons of money to invest in building factories.

Remember that these take only import/export into account and completely ignores internal economy. Midgard produces lot of things but it uses ton of it too, Alfheim on the other hand has relatively low population that is pretty selfsufficient and can focus on producing export goods.
No, I calculated their GDP off their debt/GDP ratio and debt. GDP measures both trade and internal economy.

The joys when we can finally start exporting Juvenat..
We built huge juvenat factories before, but the amount of value in credits they produce is pretty minimal. They can earn us a few thousand, nothing like the hundreds of thousands we pay for AM and EM each turn.
 
@Enjou with our current trade for EM we make a net of just under 28.5k a year. The expand Helguard eats up 27k of that. The advanced juve-nat and small hive expansions we have already started will eat up the remainder of our EM income and the other actions we are taking will push us into the negative. I think it would be a bad idea to start the Helguard expansion before we see just how much EM we can trade for a year to avoid crippling us if there is less available then we think. Also titans once done are likely to consume a good chunk of EM. Also The Cathedrial of the Omnissiah is also going to consumer 11k a year so the helguard and cathedral alone will put us at around -9.5k a year at current trade levels. Expand the Black Irons and pick up the Hellswords instead and lets see what we can actually trade for in terms of EM before risking either going negative or having a very low income which would hamper us on picking options or even conducting repairs due to lack of an EM reserve.
 
Muspelheim manages to maintain their stealth fleet without Admech though.

Note, the Admech weren't in charge of their fleet at anytime.

Except the Admech aren't the only experts. Muspelheim's got experts that aren't Admech and are clearly better than the Admech.

FIrst off we didn't know how much knowledge they had for a long time. Second it doesn't change the fact that the Admech was in charge of all our tech and were the only experts that the trust in general would trust. Musphelheim are pretty much hereteks and use AI which the rest of the Trust would likely not approve of at all due to the hate the Imperium had of them. Third it would have been incredibly ugly to try that with them since it likely would have led to a war which the Trust couldn't have afforded to fight and I doubt the rest of the Trust would have supported Avernus if it decided to start shit with them.
 
Even make work jobs are generally actually producing something though. Just putting them all to work in the most basic of factories would give considerable output.
But that assumes that the jobs are focused on the end product, rather than employment. If the focus of the jobs is employment itself, creative accounting could easily produce zero productivity jobs.

For instance, take an assembly plant that has a throughput of a thousand items a month.
If the assigned quota for that month is a thousand as is ideal, then the plant can easily meet the demand and keep its workers happily worked and fed for that month.
If some glut in the system puts the assigned quota at zero however, the plant has a problem since all of its workers are gonna be left hungry and angry for that month. So to prevent unrest, the factory overseer gets the workers to assemble five hundred items for the first half of the month, and then take those same items apart for the second half of the month. Thus the workers are paid for honest work, and the quota is met without having produced wasteful excess.

I think the Commies did this during the Cold War so that they could boast about having zero unemployment. I can see Midgard doing the same to keep the people gainfully employed, so that they don't go off to join rebel groups or gangs.
 
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The thing is, you won't convince a tech priest that your technology management practices are good just by showing them wonders and apparent success and rightly so. Machine spirits are real, they affect the behaviour and performance of complex machines and some of them are malicious. The Men of Iron, the Dark Mechanicus, the Eldar and the Orks can all build in ways the Adeptus Mechanicus can't but replicating their methods ranges from impossible to abominable to suicidal. All too often stories like Avernus or Callamus are too good to be true.

Now there are political reactionaries and opportunist enemies of Hellheim among our opponents. We want to sideline and remove them. However the moral and political weight of the opposition comes from those who are genuinely concerned that the progressives are neglecting their real and necessary priestly responsibilities in their rush to be better engineers and scientists.

The way to reassure them is to actually design and build some of these unproven (and thus worrying) machines, full religious documentation included, and release them to their examination so they can verify the work is sound.

We are sure that many steps in the traditional AdMech process are unnecessary* and other parts can be better done by trained psykers than by rote ceremonies but before we start making changes to the rules we need to demonstrate that we can respect and follow them. Then we can start a formal analysis of what the rites are meant to achieve and start proposing improvements.


*Empty yet obligatory ceremony is not just a waste of time but prime abomination bait.
 
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Note, the Admech weren't in charge of their fleet at anytime.
That's exactly my point. People act like Admech are the only ones that can maintain fleets, but they aren't.

FIrst off we didn't know how much knowledge they had for a long time. Second it doesn't change the fact that the Admech was in charge of all our tech and were the only experts that the trust in general would trust. Musphelheim are pretty much hereteks and use AI which the rest of the Trust would likely not approve of at all due to the hate the Imperium had of them. Third it would have been incredibly ugly to try that with them since it likely would have led to a war which the Trust couldn't have afforded to fight and I doubt the rest of the Trust would have supported Avernus if it decided to start shit with them.
Muspelheim, Niflheim, and Svartalfheim all don't use admech. The admech have little presence on Jotunheim. Avernus admech are radical progressives. There'd be much more support for it than you seem to think.

Also I think it's a war we can't afford not to have. We've been suffering under essentially a ~95% economic penalty from having the Admech. Rolling the dice to get rid of that penalty would be worth the risk. If we had the per capita productivity of Muspelheim across all the survivors we'd actually have a higher total output even if we lost 80% of the population in catastrophic civil war.

But that assumes that the jobs are focused on the end product, rather than employment. If the focus of the jobs is employment itself, creative accounting could easily produce zero productivity jobs.

For instance, take an assembly plant that has a throughput of a thousand items a month.
If the assigned quota for that month is a thousand as is ideal, then the plant can easily meet the demand and keep its workers happily worked and fed for that month.
If some glut in the system puts the assigned quota at zero however, the plant has a problem since all of its workers are gonna be left hungry and angry for that month. So to prevent unrest, the factory overseer gets the workers to assemble five hundred items for the first half of the month, and then take those same items apart for the second half of the month. Thus the workers are paid for honest work, and the quota is met without having produced wasteful excess.

I think the Commies did this during the Cold War so that they could boast about having zero unemployment. I can see Midgard doing the same to keep the people gainfully employed, so that they don't go off to join rebel groups or gangs.
That doesn't really follow. You can take an assembly plant that produces a 1000 items a month and have it produce 1000 items a month even if you don't need those items. You can always export them to somewhere else. That's the whole point of integrated trade networks. Even if that other place could produce them on their own they can produce something else instead. In our case for instance Midgard could produce trillions of Material and then export that to other worlds that would then be able to make more of other things by not having to make Material.

Or they could just leverage that manpower to climb up the value chain and start producing more advanced materials in larger and larger quantities. Midgard has always had enormous amounts of cash with which they could have built factories to employ their people, and use the revenue from that to build more factories.

Employing people assembling and disassembling stuff costs you more than employing them actually making stuff because there's zero return on investment. Even something where you get 80% of what you put in out is better than something where you get 0% of what you put in out.

We consume most of the Juvenat we produce - Which is why we only get a few thousand at most.
We didn't when we first expanded the factories though. This is our second major juvenat factory expansion, and people claimed we'd be able to export it for credits the first time around. This is the same scenario. When we expanded the first time we produced several times as much as we needed, and it still amounted to squat in exports.
 
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starting a major civil war when surrounded by enemies looking for an opening is a downright stupid idea
whoever won would find themselves facing a major invasion with only a fraction of their forces and compromised defences
even if there was a 19 fold increase from better tech, rather then the at best 3 fold there actually would be, you would not have enough time ton make use of it
as a note the big reason that Midgard does not have higher productivity is a lack of enough raw resources, it could easily quadruple its material output if you had the shipping to devote all of the trusts metal to it, and then expanded your mineing
 
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I wonder if the Trust could begin or expand serious exploitation of uninhabitable/uninhabited systems? For the raw materials.
 
That doesn't really follow. You can take an assembly plant that produces a 1000 items a month and have it produce 1000 items a month even if you don't need those items. You can always export them to somewhere else. That's the whole point of integrated trade networks. Even if that other place could produce them on their own they can produce something else instead. In our case for instance Midgard could produce trillions of Material and then export that to other worlds that would then be able to make more of other things by not having to make Material.

Or they could just leverage that manpower to climb up the value chain and start producing more advanced materials in larger and larger quantities. Midgard has always had enormous amounts of cash with which they could have built factories to employ their people, and use the revenue from that to build more factories.

Employing people assembling and disassembling stuff costs you more than employing them actually making stuff because there's zero return on investment. Even something where you get 80% of what you put in out is better than something where you get 0% of what you put in out.
That level of interconnectivity might not be possible with our current shipping capacity. IIRC we're still short on Mass Conveyors and Merchantmen to meet all of the Imperial Trust's current needs. It'd also take up too much resource to be practical, especially while Vanaheim continues to be a Black Hole for Metal.

Even if the transportation issue is fixed, having Midgard's massive population churn out Material in an efficient manner may crash the market with excessive supply. It could spark trade wars between the Trust Worlds to stop Midgard's constant dumping. We'd either have to divert the Material to outside markets (extremely difficult during an Age of Strife), or improve Standards of Living to ludicrously wasteful levels to compensate. In addition the Trust's growth policy is to have each world be largely self-sufficient in terms of basic industrial output, so that they can survive in the short/mid term after getting cutoff by Warp Storms. Midgard won't find many buyers for its products.

Also, Midgard cannot move to AM or EM production for lack of trained personnel. The Mechanicus has a monopoly on those, and until it finishes its Reformation and starts teaching Holy Knowledge to outside laymen, we just have to deal with its glacial growth rate.

@Durin is this correct?
 
Let's talk paranoia for a second. If I were a Tzeentchian building a superweapon VS a diviner as or more skilled than me, I would only be building it as a bait. Specifically I would try to call up some Daemon with a paragon or trancendent trait in corrupting people and bind their effect to an item in such a way as to trigger when it is divined for, then bait the other diviner into looking at it.

I understand that this crosses the line into counter productively paranoid, and Ridcully's traits might let him dodge any trigger mechanism, but the thought needed to be stated out loud.
so....uhhh...I actually agree with this and it was one of the thoughts I had as well.

if we DO have ridcully look for the tzeetchian WMD or whatever, could we at least consider having Lin help watch over him to migigate/remove the danger of corruption/infection/whatever ?

It does seem like something that will eventually be a concern, so......?

@Durin if a situation came up where Ridcully has to roll against the possablity of corruption, how big of a buff would Lin give Ridcully?
 
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That level of interconnectivity might not be possible with our current shipping capacity. IIRC we're still short on Mass Conveyors and Merchantmen to meet all of the Imperial Trust's current needs. It'd also take up too much resource to be practical, especially while Vanaheim continues to be a Black Hole for Metal.

Even if the transportation issue is fixed, having Midgard's massive population churn out Material in an efficient manner may crash the market with excessive supply. It could spark trade wars between the Trust Worlds to stop Midgard's constant dumping. We'd either have to divert the Material to outside markets (extremely difficult during an Age of Strife), or improve Standards of Living to ludicrously wasteful levels to compensate. In addition the Trust's growth policy is to have each world be largely self-sufficient in terms of basic industrial output, so that they can survive in the short/mid term after getting cutoff by Warp Storms. Midgard won't find many buyers for its products.

Also, Midgard cannot move to AM or EM production for lack of trained personnel. The Mechanicus has a monopoly on those, and until it finishes its Reformation and starts teaching Holy Knowledge to outside laymen, we just have to deal with its glacial growth rate.

@Durin is this correct?
pretty much
 
so....uhhh...I actually agree with this and it was one of the thoughts I had as well.

if we DO have ridcully look for the tzeetchian WMD or whatever, could we at least consider having Lin help watch over him to migigate/remove the danger of corruption/infection/whatever ?

It does seem like something that will eventually be a concern, so......?

@Durin if a situation came up where Ridcully has to roll against the possablity of corruption, how big of a buff would Lin help Ridcully give?
massive, the presence of a Living Saint is pretty much the greatest protection there is against taint, short of full divine intervention
 
If we want to improve on our economy, the only thing besides the waiting game that we can do to improve it is colonize. In our case expanding to more of Avernus would probably be best, both because it will likely increase our Deathworld bonus, and because we already have problems with our Merchantmen.

I realize other people have said this already, I'm agreeing.
 
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massive, the presence of a Living Saint is pretty much the greatest protection there is against taint, short of full divine intervention

so obliviously this is not a concern if the corruption problem never comes up in the first place. But, I do think the point should at least be concidered because even if you want to argue that this is a unlikely situation, it is still POSSABLe and we need to consider it before assuming its small.

(thanks durin)
 
Why is it that Alfheim produces so much EM compared to Midgard though? Midgard has tons of money to invest in building factories.
Money, but comparatively not people.

We sent a lot of tech priests to Alfheim when we bought them from Atlas and Zaren gave them a continent to use as they please.

Except the Admech aren't the only experts. Muspelheim's got experts that aren't Admech and are clearly better than the Admech.
I don't think you quite understand how interconnected the Admech were with the Imperium, they weren't everywhere, but it was a close thing, if we had tried to get rid of them then and if we try now it would be disastrous, not because we don't have people who can maintain ships, but because the Admech can very easily hold many of the Trust's key industrial centre's hostage.

Vanaheim's shipyards, our orbital mines, the reactors of just about every fleet sans Muspelheim and Nilfheim, stealth fleets who are not exactly capable of stopping a Legend Class Dreadnaught.

Combine this with the fact that we didn't know about the Muspal being what they were at the time of the Trust's formation, the fact that their population size was a literal fraction of what it is now and I doubt they've got enough people to replace the admech now, and the fact that they hadn't brought their factories online or started their massive education/juvnat programmes.

In short, like we've had to dela with for centuries the Admech's gotta stay, unless of course we want to blow ourselves up.

-Y5: On Religious Gods
-- DOUBLE DOWN YEAR 5
@Enjou please do the Path of Ascension, we need to figure out what's happening to Ridcully what can go right, what can go wrong and what can go wrong ect.

The thing is, you won't convince a tech priest that your technology management practices are good just by showing them wonders and apparent success and rightly so. Machine spirits are real, they affect the behaviour and performance of complex machines and some of them are malicious. The Men of Iron, the Dark Mechanicus, the Eldar and the Orks can all build in ways the Adeptus Mechanicus can't but replicating their methods ranges from impossible to abominable to suicidal. All too often stories like Avernus or Callamus are too good to be true.
PHFA. Machine spirits that conveniently only turn up when an admech is near by, require constant placation and lubrication with holy oils and covering with incense, otherwise they won't work properly.

Its the same as the Catholic church doing mass in Latin, making sure things look much more mystical than they actually are to make sure the masses never investigate, this has been a bullshit technique since days of old.

Hell I can even give evidence for it being nonsense, a geller field in a space hulk, with survivors in a deathwatch module. The shield is the only thing keeping them alive and the only person keeping the shield running, is a lowly ratling who doesn't know any of the "holy rites to placate the machine" he just does his savant maintenance and the "machine spirit" doesn't bother him, to the point that when

Of course millennia of belief may have created small warp things there, but I doubt the admech in its entirety has the juice to give all human technology psudo souls.

That's not to say "machine spirits" don't exist, their just in advanced technology and programming, like Landraiders, Knights or maybe Titans seeing as the next step in the Titan creation process literally requires Tranth to create a machine spirit, giving credence to this.

Of course if you're talking about this in a theological sense disregard my tired barely awake rant.
 
@Durin, if we wanted Ridcully and Lin to look at a Chaos God, would it be better to coincide it so they begin on the same turn or so they end on the same turn?
 
So, uh, how would Avernus fare under a Warpstorm? We import quite a bit of AM/EM, and if that flow were to be cut off, we'd be short 28.1 Million AM, 73k EM.

In this turn, if Avernus was suddenly hit by a warpstorm, our AM income would be -76 Million AM, 268 Thousand EM.
 
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