The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up

[Doomed Wombat]

2, you are allowed to ask without going though the High Council, by a technicallity

Click to shrink...

@Durin
1. I know HanEmpire already asked, but since I don't think you answered: How pissed would the other high council worlds be, if we framed it as us asking in advance so we had more information to give to them at the meeting?

yes and it will be a 6 year turn

Click to shrink...

2. Are we making the transition to six year turns or is this a one off thing?
3. @Durin in rogue trader at least the admech was capable of taking ship hull's that had crashed on a world, fixing them and then getting them back into the void from the ground. Do we
a. Have the ability to fix things like that.
b. Could we expand on the concept to build ships underground and then launch them?
4. Has Tranth done any experiments to see if it is possible for the Mindcatcher's we have to make a permanent digital personality?

 

[Durin]

Oh, so Avernus could make deals with the Eldar as long as it affects Avernus only?

EDIT: Bah, I misread that. So we can write up deals with Eldar using a "not ambassador", and then send it up to be ratified. That'll speed things up nicely.

Click to shrink...

you can but if you do it will cause a few issues with other worlds int eh Trust, inlcuding some that often support you

@Durin
1. I know HanEmpire already asked, but since I don't think you answered: How pissed would the other high council worlds be, if we framed it as us asking in advance so we had more information to give to them at the meeting?

2. Are we making the transition to six year turns or is this a one off thing?
3. @Durin in rogue trader at least the admech was capable of taking ship hull's that had crashed on a world, fixing them and then getting them back into the void from the ground. Do we
a. Have the ability to fix things like that.
b. Could we expand on the concept to build ships underground and then launch them?
4. Has Tranth done any experiments to see if it is possible for the Mindcatcher's we have to make a permanent digital personality?

Click to shrink...

1. given that you have not even sounded them out on the idea, pretty
2. one off due to last turn being 1 year
3. a. yes
b. not really, that is getting the hulk into space and then pretty much rebuilding it
4. yes, the issue is that the personality created is utterly insane within a few weeks

 

[Doomed Wombat]

1. given that you have not even sounded them out on the idea, pretty

Click to shrink...

mmm. Lets not do that then.

Lets also point out the potential issue to the high council and get it changed.

4. yes, the issue is that the personality created is utterly insane within a few weeks

Click to shrink...

@Durin
1. I thought you said it just collapsed... just poof not went mad? Either way, could he figure out why it went mad? Or does it go mad as a result of the experiments he did to make it longer lasting?
2. Have any psykers like Ridcully examined the personality, to see if it had a soul impression or the like? Do they think that maybe related to them going bananas?
3. Does Tranth/Surt believe that a mindcatcher AI could substitute for a MoS in things like the Grav super ship? Cause they seem to be pretty powerful if they're useful in EM warfare against Men of Iron.

 

[HanEmpire]

@Durin:
1) do the Avernites know that they're being altered by Avernus Planet Mind?
2) what do our advisors think about us informing the High Council about this?

 

[Durin]

mmm. Lets not do that then.

Lets also point out the potential issue to the high council and get it changed.


@Durin
1. I thought you said it just collapsed... just poof not went mad? Either way, could he figure out why it went mad? Or does it go mad as a result of the experiments he did to make it longer lasting?
2. Have any psykers like Ridcully examined the personality, to see if it had a soul impression or the like? Do they think that maybe related to them going bananas?
3. Does Tranth/Surt believe that a mindcatcher AI could substitute for a MoS in things like the Grav super ship? Cause they seem to be pretty powerful if they're useful in EM warfare against Men of Iron.

Click to shrink...

1. It usually collapses and if he makes it last longer it goes mad
2. Yes, there can be soul impressions
3. Unknown

@Durin:
1) do the Avernites know that they're being altered by Avernus Planet Mind?
2) what do our advisors think about us informing the High Council about this?

Click to shrink...

1. No
2. That the inquisition will tell it if you do not

 

[Reynal]

for 40k I always act on the assumption that pysics works mostly the same unless otherwise noted, or unless it would be cooler to do something else
so orbital mechanics are unchanged

Click to shrink...

Really? Cause orbital mechanics can be an absolute bitch to deal with here.

Take our shipyards, for example. They're 'above' a moon of a gas giant. Moons of gas giants are almost always tidally locked, and a fairly typical orbital period is on the order of 150 hours. Unfortunately, there literally isn't a geostationary equivalent orbit for the shipyards to be in, which entirely nixes the idea of a space elevator based on the principles of our world's physics.

 

[Doomed Wombat]

2. Yes, there can be soul impressions

Click to shrink...

mmm...

Seems like a line to develop.

Kinda sounds like the cloning problem on steroids...sooo

Just transplant a full soul and mind.

2. That the inquisition will tell it if you do not

Click to shrink...

I thought they already knew...

Well lets add that to the meeting "HEEEEY GUYS just thought you ought to know, the planet's consciousness is evolving my people at a rather rapid rate...we think it only wants better things to shoot chaos, but I think ya'll should know...just in case."

That reminds I think this one fell to the wayside.

@Durin
1. What do our Avernite contacts think the Planet Mind is doing to/with the Grey Knight (assuming it kidnapped him.)
2. What do they give as his chances for being alive at the end of whatever it wants with him?

 

[noliar]

1. probebly not

Click to shrink...

Then he'll be sidelined by someone who will. The world has lierally changed. That scrap is too dangerous to ignore, too valuable to ignore and the Svartalf are too defensive minded to let outside contactors have long term dominance of their orbitals and system.

 

[Durin]

mmm...

Seems like a line to develop.

Kinda sounds like the cloning problem on steroids...sooo

Just transplant a full soul and mind.


I thought they already knew...

Well lets add that to the meeting "HEEEEY GUYS just thought you ought to know, the planet's consciousness is evolving my people at a rather rapid rate...we think it only wants better things to shoot chaos, but I think ya'll should know...just in case."

That reminds I think this one fell to the wayside.

@Durin
1. What do our Avernite contacts think the Planet Mind is doing to/with the Grey Knight (assuming it kidnapped him.)
2. What do they give as his chances for being alive at the end of whatever it wants with him?

Click to shrink...

1. unknown
2. ditto

 

[Durin]

Then he'll be sidelined by someone who will. The world has lierally changed. That scrap is too dangerous to ignore, too valuable to ignore and the Svartalf are too defensive minded to let outside contactors have long term dominance of their orbitals and system.

Click to shrink...

you are greatly overestimating just how valuable it is, and who says mineing it would be a long term project

 

[Dragon_352]

Really? Cause orbital mechanics can be an absolute bitch to deal with here.

Take our shipyards, for example. They're 'above' a moon of a gas giant. Moons of gas giants are almost always tidally locked, and a fairly typical orbital period is on the order of 150 hours. Unfortunately, there literally isn't a geostationary equivalent orbit for the shipyards to be in, which entirely nixes the idea of a space elevator based on the principles of our world's physics.

Click to shrink...

ok, first off....---->.ok....lets assume your right....in which case so what? we don't have any space elevators on that moon I'm pretty sure, so theres no normal physics-defying things going on there...........

second off....it is still possible to build a space elevator on a tidal-locked moon---you just have to build it facing towards the planet or away from it so that the force from the planet is parallel to the structure and therefore either assisting the moons pull or resisting it.

third off....you expictly stated "almost always".....what if this is one moon which is NOT tidally locked?....maybe its a young moon that has not entered that stage of its life yet

4th off... the bit about the ships in orbit is the same problem as the space elevator.....you can totally be in orbit "around" the moon as long as you are actaully orbiting the planet----just at the same height and velocity as the moon......and on the far side/close side of it.......

alternatively, while its not practicle for modern ships to do since we don't have super-advanced reactors.......but 40k does ....and the moon is not going to be very massive so the dis-stablizing pull from said moon is small. so you CAN just simply be using your engines to adjust yourself continuously......

and finally.....I am pretty sure you can orbit more then 1 thing at once regardless of the moon being tidally locked (with the 2+ objects being in orbit of each other)...you just have to have each orbit be perpendicular to the other ones since the forces can't interfere....this means that you are limited to 2 simultaneous orbits at once since we exist in 3 dimensions............but maybe I'm wrong on that as I can't find any materials on this when I looked it up.

edit: thinking about it more I am realizeing that of COURSE you can orbit more then 1 thing at once since obviously the moon is orbiting both the earth and the sun.....but in this case we are talking about when the object in question is very close to both objects......

 

[Durin]

A space elevator is a massive weak point for a city.

The fact that space ship construction is not possible on a celestial body lacking atmosphere (like our forge moons) means that the problem is gravity.

I personally do not understand the sience put into a space elevator but there is only one possible ways for one to function: to be only a cable ancored between the ground and a geo syncrone station. Building a tower or similar is simply unfeasable. And the moment the station gets attacked or the cable directly there will be hundreds of kilometer of 'cable' falling onto the surface.

Dedicated heavy transport ships would work way more reliable to make transport between surface and space possible. Given that many components are already produced groundsite and delivered (because there are the forge hives building the important things) it is something that is already happen.

Shipyards themselfs have production facilities as well to turn raw material into whatever they need so I do not see the point in building a space elevator. For 40k the cost of shipping is to small (we even have beergrass as a renewable prometium variant) to make the reduction in transport cost that the elevator bring relevant.

@Durin
1. What are shipyards using to transport larger pieces (like a makrocannon barrel)? Build locally and moved with cranes, haulers of some kind, specialized landers and strapped on outside (air resistance is not a thing in space), 'smalish' multipurpose welder/constructor drones, some dudes pushing it in zero gravity, ...
2a. Because shipyards can not produce all the part nessecary for ship building (their production of material and AM is less than what they consume building full tild) how are the other part transported to them? Vanaheim has orbital industry so some form of lander equivalent?
2b. What is used for 'slightly' longer distances in system? For example bewteen the further forge moon and our shipyards? A merchant?

Click to shrink...

1. a mix of all of the above
2a. landers often purpose built
2b. in system haulers, you have some they are just not mentioned, not needing anything the scale of a full shipyard to make being closer in size to the larger modern cargo ships then the multi m long merchantmen

 

[Dark as Silver]

4. yes, the issue is that the personality created is utterly insane within a few weeks

Click to shrink...

Is this a sort of Halo Rampant AI type thing?

third off....you expictly stated "almost always".....what if this is one moon which is NOT tidally locked?....maybe its a young moon that has not entered that stage of its life yet

Click to shrink...

You mean one thats still forming from a stellar debris cloud? That poses its own problems.
Tidal locking is more to do with the relative mass of the planet to the moon, since gas giants are really massive, even earth sized planets could become tidally locked if they fell into a close enough orbit.
I think the key thing here, is that if we can't get a geosynchronous orbit around the moon then we could probably find one around the planet that is parallel and has the same orbital period as the moon (pretty much what you said about being opposite or away from the gas giant.)
I don't think tidal locking is an insurmountable problem here, for starters 40k employs rule of cool and even besides that I feel it could be done anyway, however it would probably require a lot more micro thrusting and management than one over a spherical object in a vacuum otherwise would.
As for orbiting multiple things, you mean like the moon orbits the earth, orbits the sun, orbits the centre of the milky way? Afraid thats only possible on a non flat earth and if you look at the map of Avernus its clearly a Civ style cylinder planet.

 

[Portec]

1. a mix of all of the above

Click to shrink...

Now I am reliefed. With the Imperiums stand on workforce use I would not have found it strange if in the old times it was mainly hauling by hand.

 

[Nurgle]

Ok so I am thinking about what technology might help build ships faster and what do people think of a gravity elevator? Think of it as a platform that is put into orbit by gravity than brough back down.

 

[Piren'e Colass]

All this talk of shipbuilding has inspired a tech omake. Perhaps we'll find something like this in one of our next tech hunts.

Rockhopper class tug
Capital ships and even most escorts are unable to relaunch themselves from all but the most low gravity planetoids. While most starships have the thrust and fuel to easily make orbit they lack the ability to manuver in atmosphere and oriente their engines correctly to utilize this.

The Rockhopper solves this. Essentially a single two hundred meter long plasma engine barely capable of manuver in atmosphere, the ingenious part of the tug is a fifty meter square plate filled with powerful gravito-magnetic clamps capable of gripping a starships hull. This high tech clamp can easily mitigate the forces exerted by the engine and allows a team of Rockhoppers to drag a starship off the ground and point it's nose to the sky, upon which it can fire up it's own engines and get itself into orbit.

The number of thrusters required to launch depends on the ship, with escorts requiring only four, a light cruiser ten to a dozen, and a full battleship almost a hundred. Once the ships engines are fully engaged the Rockhoppers detatch themselves from the hull, and return planetside, landing thruster first ready to attach to another ship.

Alternatively a ship which needs to land on a planet can retain the Rockhoppers on its hull, even through the warp, and they can help it land planetside without sustaining too much damage. If specialist groundside port facilities are available ships can land completely successfully and relaunch as soon as the Rockhoppers are refueled. These tugs are also capable of launching into orbit, grabbing a ship, and bringing it safely down to a preprepared berth.

Unfortunately, these thrusters cannot be used to make a ghetto descent class. Almost unarmoured and slow moving, they are extremely vulnerable to ground based heavy weapons, and due to size constraints do not carry nearly enough fuel for long loiter times.

One must be careful about the area in which Rockhoppers are used. The large plasma engines on them and starships can cause serious amounts of damage to unhardened surfaces, and expect launch sites to be covered in char and glass scars. In addition to these downsides they are expensive to construct, with the gravito-magnetic clamp requiring advanced and exotic material to construct.

 

[Portec]

The big problem most voidships have is that their structual components can not withstand a planets gravity.
Any ship not build to handle them (for most it is simply not needed) will need dedicated shipyard repair time to straighten it back out.
I mean that as is written. Grounded voidships will bend and need straightening to prevent breaking apart afterwards.

 

[Piren'e Colass]

The big problem most voidships have is that their structual components can not withstand a planets gravity.
Any ship not build to handle them (for most it is simply not needed) will need dedicated shipyard repair time to straighten it back out.
I mean that as is written. Grounded voidships will bend and need straightening to prevent breaking apart afterwards.

Click to shrink...

That's why the thrusters are distributed along the hull, reducing the structural strain on the ship.

Also, 40k ships are built like bricks and survive all sorts of crazy shit mostly intact. I could believe our daot tech was fragile enough to be killed by 1G but an imperial era ship?

 

[Reynal]

ok, first off....---->.ok....lets assume your right....in which case so what? we don't have any space elevators on that moon I'm pretty sure, so theres no normal physics-defying things going on there...........

second off....it is still possible to build a space elevator on a tidal-locked moon---you just have to build it facing towards the planet or away from it so that the force from the planet is parallel to the structure and therefore either assisting the moons pull or resisting it.

third off....you expictly stated "almost always".....what if this is one moon which is NOT tidally locked?....maybe its a young moon that has not entered that stage of its life yet

4th off... the bit about the ships in orbit is the same problem as the space elevator.....you can totally be in orbit "around" the moon as long as you are actaully orbiting the planet----just at the same height and velocity as the moon......and on the far side/close side of it.......

alternatively, while its not practicle for modern ships to do since we don't have super-advanced reactors.......but 40k does ....and the moon is not going to be very massive so the dis-stablizing pull from said moon is small. so you CAN just simply be using your engines to adjust yourself continuously......

and finally.....I am pretty sure you can orbit more then 1 thing at once regardless of the moon being tidally locked (with the 2+ objects being in orbit of each other)...you just have to have each orbit be perpendicular to the other ones since the forces can't interfere....this means that you are limited to 2 simultaneous orbits at once since we exist in 3 dimensions............but maybe I'm wrong on that as I can't find any materials on this when I looked it up.

edit: thinking about it more I am realizeing that of COURSE you can orbit more then 1 thing at once since obviously the moon is orbiting both the earth and the sun.....but in this case we are talking about when the object in question is very close to both objects......

Click to shrink...

You know, you're kinda proving my point here.

The radius of a tidally locked moon's geostationary orbit equivalent would be the distance between it and the planet it orbits. The maximum distance from a moon for an object to be and orbit the moon instead of the planet is r * (m/(3M))^(1/3), with r as the distance between the planet and the moon, m the mass of the moon, and M the mass of the planet. Given that a 'normal' ratio of m and M for a gas giant is on the order of 1:5000, that means that the highest orbit allowed around the moon should be about .04r—or 4% of the geostationary orbit's theoretical height. Thus, no geostationary orbit—instead you just get something else orbiting the gas giant. And even if you could get it to orbit the moon instead of transferring to the gas giant's orbit, it would be so far away from said moon as to receive effectively no benefit from being in orbit around it—odds are pretty decent that it would spend a decent amount of its time actually closer to the other moons than its parent moon.

As far as the engine adjustment idea goes, while basically any orbit is possible with enough adjustment, the absurd amount needed for the kinds we're talking about defy logic—it would be far easier and cheaper to just have the damn shipyards in their own separate orbit around the gas giant than to keep them in a geostationary orbit around the moon that's low enough to benefit from being close to the moon in question. I mean, we know that boosting isn't exactly a free action just from the fact that we would potentially benefit at all from a space elevator.

And yeah, we don't have an orbital elevator there breaking traditional orbital mechanics now, but we've been told that it's possible and that the downside would be of the defensive issues type.

A massive amount of the practical effects of orbital mechanics are counterintuitive and take a fair bit of time to work out. For example, it's pretty easy to name the planets 'in order' and say that Earth is 'between' Venus and Mars, but that doesn't always mean they're the closest planets, and depending on where they are in their orbits the actual distance between Earth and Mars can and does change by about a factor of eight.

 

[Dragon_352]

Is this a sort of Halo Rampant AI type thing?

You mean one thats still forming from a stellar debris cloud? That poses its own problems.

Click to shrink...

it is possable for a moon to form without being tidal locked...there is a period of time between the moons formation and when tidal forces force the moon to rotate with its orbit around the planet(IE: become tidal locked)

Tidal locking is more to do with the relative mass of the planet to the moon, since gas giants are really massive, even earth sized planets could become tidally locked if they fell into a close enough orbit.
I think the key thing here, is that if we can't get a geosynchronous orbit around the moon then we could probably find one around the planet that is parallel and has the same orbital period as the moon (pretty much what you said about being opposite or away from the gas giant.)
I don't think tidal locking is an insurmountable problem here, for starters 40k employs rule of cool and even besides that I feel it could be done anyway, however it would probably require a lot more micro thrusting and management than one over a spherical object in a vacuum otherwise would.

Click to shrink...

I think your missing the other 5 things that I brought up that would make it possable to have a stardock in orbit around the moon WITHOUT nixxing normal laws of physics.
your even admitting it.

You know, you're kinda proving my point here.

The radius of a tidally locked moon's geostationary orbit equivalent would be the distance between it and the planet it orbits. The maximum distance from a moon for an object to be and orbit the moon instead of the planet is r * (m/(3M))^(1/3), with r as the distance between the planet and the moon, m the mass of the moon, and M the mass of the planet. Given that a 'normal' ratio of m and M for a gas giant is on the order of 1:5000, that means that the highest orbit allowed around the moon should be about .04r—or 4% of the geostationary orbit's theoretical height. Thus, no geostationary orbit—instead you just get something else orbiting the gas giant. And even if you could get it to orbit the moon instead of transferring to the gas giant's orbit, it would be so far away from said moon as to receive effectively no benefit from being in orbit around it—odds are pretty decent that it would spend a decent amount of its time actually closer to the other moons than its parent moon.

As far as the engine adjustment idea goes, while basically any orbit is possible with enough adjustment, the absurd amount needed for the kinds we're talking about defy logic—it would be far easier and cheaper to just have the damn shipyards in their own separate orbit around the gas giant than to keep them in a geostationary orbit around the moon that's low enough to benefit from being close to the moon in question. I mean, we know that boosting isn't exactly a free action just from the fact that we would potentially benefit at all from a space elevator.

And yeah, we don't have an orbital elevator there breaking traditional orbital mechanics now, but we've been told that it's possible and that the downside would be of the defensive issues type.

A massive amount of the practical effects of orbital mechanics are counterintuitive and take a fair bit of time to work out. For example, it's pretty easy to name the planets 'in order' and say that Earth is 'between' Venus and Mars, but that doesn't always mean they're the closest planets, and depending on where they are in their orbits the actual distance between Earth and Mars can and does change by about a factor of eight.

Click to shrink...

you are completely dodgeing my other 5 points that I brought up.........the entire issue is made moot by some of them. also, where did you get that formula?

second, you stated "most moons" ......so maybe this is NOT in that catagory.
third, without any numbers to place on how big the moon is, we could say that the moon is hypothetically a very small mass OR a very big mass......as well as being very far away and very close by.......
so your estimate is useless here.

and you did not actually explain here what the issue with the space elevator.....why would there be any strutural/mechanical/orbital problems with a moon?

infact......Futuristic Moon Elevator Idea Takes Aim at Lunar Lifts
is a article saying that space elevators are actually MORE practical on a moon (which in earths case is tidally locked).....

and we have plenty of things orbiting the moon as well
Who's Orbiting the Moon? | Science Mission Directorate

this is all getting away from the point anyway......
my ultimate point that I am trying to commuicate here is that the rule of cool is not needed to have a stardock orbit a moon. (edit: or have a space elevator/proposal for one)

 

[Andres]

I could believe our daot tech was fragile enough to be killed by 1G but an imperial era ship?

Click to shrink...

Dark Age tech isn't fragile. It's as or more reliable and robust as all other human tech. Eldar tech is what's characterised by fragility.

 

[Doomed Wombat]

Dark Age tech isn't fragile. It's as or more reliable and robust as all other human tech. Eldar tech is what's characterised by fragility.

Click to shrink...

And isn't either.

 

[Andres]

And isn't either.

Click to shrink...

Yes it is. The easiest way to get your ships blown up in BGA when you're Eldar is to get into a ramming match with Imperium or Orks.

 

[Doomed Wombat]

Yes it is. The easiest way to get your ships blown up in BGA when you're Eldar is to get into a ramming match with Imperium or Orks.

Click to shrink...

Eldar hoboships mate, but yes they're fragile only in comparison to other things that are designed to be tough like Imperial ships.

The Eldar ships are not designed to be tough.

 

[sabreFather]

Remember, current Eldar war vessels are the merchant marine and coast guard, not Eldar Empire war vessels. Otherwise they would be tougher than the actual Craftworlds, which are NOT meant to engage in combat.