The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up

Investigate the Sea?

  • Yes

    Votes: 593 80.4%
  • No

    Votes: 145 19.6%

  • Total voters
    738
@Durin
1. We have a lot of witch hunters, cultist hunters, really a lot of experienced anti-chaos personnel. Could we get an Arbites conference hosting all of these personnel, so that they could pool their job's specific knowledge and experience?
2. Could we have Saint Lin do a research action on Avernus?
 
We shouldn't kill the local chaos leaders unless we are aiming to take their territories.

If we kill their leader and them leave them alone, ideally lesser leaders would replace them.

But on the other hand there is also a chance that some bigger chaos polity would use this opportunity to expand into our area.
 
I think your missing the other 5 things that I brought up that would make it possable to have a stardock in orbit around the moon WITHOUT nixxing normal laws of physics.
your even admitting it.
o_O
You realise that I can agree with parts of an argument while thinking other points are weak?
I didn't address the other five points because I didn't have much to add.
 
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@Durin
You said that the leader of Dark Crusades are per definition scary. Despite other missgivings the leader of what hit Avernus was quite cable.
How does that affect your throws for the statistics of a chaos leader? Do they get minimal statistics or something else?
 
And remember Durin has told us repeatedly we're in the safest regions of Avernus. If you want natural disasters as a real issue, we'll have to go beyond them.

I seriously doubt that natural disasters are even a problem for us considering that we have DAoT and our cities are designed in such a way to make Imperial Era armies serious trouble and even hold them off if they just focused on Avernus. It would be kind of dumb if our cities weren't designed to handle natural disasters.

3 would it be possible for Ridicully to divine the local chaos polities and figure out the best way to get them into civil wars?
4 would we be able to convince the Inquisition to start assassinating chaos leaders?

I'm against us starting shit with chaos polities just because. Our mission from the Emperor was to survive, not start shit with everyone. As is we just had a major war literally a few moments ago. Not to mention our colonies haven't quite updated yet. Finally the Trust is tiny compared to all the major factions. Don't think we can afford chaos finding out that we are deliberately fucking with any and all chaos polities just because and it is likely considering that they have seers as well.

If we are going to start shit with chaos polities it should be with ones we are actually planning to directly deal with while we are at full strength.

@Durin
You said that the leader of Dark Crusades are per definition scary. Despite other missgivings the leader of what hit Avernus was quite cable.
How does that affect your throws for the statistics of a chaos leader? Do they get minimal statistics or something else?

Imagine that there is a huge difference between the random chaos lord we faced and the ones in Abbadons Imperium. That being that due to the Black Imperium being massive he is able to recruit a ton of paragons including martial ones. And despite what people think Paragons aren't actually that rare in the grand scheme of things with us being unusual in that we have so many in a polity as small as ours and most of them are from the same planet.
 
I seriously doubt that natural disasters are even a problem for us considering that we have DAoT and our cities are designed in such a way to make Imperial Era armies serious trouble and even hold them off if they just focused on Avernus. It would be kind of dumb if our cities weren't designed to handle natural disasters.
We were able to fend off entire crusades (according to a general whose been in said crusades) solo well over one hundred years ago.

Imagine that there is a huge difference between the random chaos lord we faced and the ones in Abbadons Imperium. That being that due to the Black Imperium being massive he is able to recruit a ton of paragons including martial ones. And despite what people think Paragons aren't actually that rare in the grand scheme of things with us being unusual in that we have so many in a polity as small as ours and most of them are from the same planet.
Actually I'd wager paragons are rare in the grand scheme of things, its just the grand scheme is enormous. And any paragon level person is likely to gravitate towards people who can do stuff and give them the best stuff...like old Abaddon.

We are weird though :)
 
Ok I want the chaos polities in audited and fighting each other because they are the enemy. They attacked the Trust when we were fighting a Waagh. They are hostile and Keep sending spies to attack the trust. They are cuter musteer points for a black crusade against us. I can go on but it is best if they are fighting a civil war.

Why because they are the enemy and out to destroy the trust. I want the border of the trust secured because eventually they will attack the trust when the trust is weak or distracted. Liked when they recently sent raids against the Trust when the trust was busy fighting a Waagh ( to beat a dead horse).

Paragons are rare in the galaxy it is just that the trust is extremely lucky that the Emperor caused for these too happen. And Avernus seems to bring out the best in people or kills them.
 
Actually I'd wager paragons are rare in the grand scheme of things, its just the grand scheme is enormous. And any paragon level person is likely to gravitate towards people who can do stuff and give them the best stuff...like old Abaddon.

We are weird though :)

Note that there could literally be thousands of Paragons and it would still be less than even a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of the whole galaxies population. Example, there are around a 60-100 billion people in the Trust with only around 40 planets and we ourselves only have around 15 human paragons out of all those people with around 9-10 of them being on the same planet(Avernus) and it should be noted that most of the worlds outside the core wolrds we have are only starter colonies.

The Imperium of man was noted to have had around one million worlds. The galaxy is freaking huge and the other polities that are truly massive have thousands of developed worlds and have been in war for ages. Chaos themselves have an immensely unfair advanatage in that their guys can be revived if they are high level unless they are killed with some serious fire power or bullshit like ours so we can guarantee that they have warriors that are thousands of years old and at least hundreds of paragons spread out all over the galaxy.

For Transcendants imagine that there would be around a hundred at the least. Though it should be pointed out that even if a 100 sounds like an insane amount that is when compared to the numbers of the whole galaxy with sapients in it numbering around quintillion IIRC. So there would be maybe 100 Transcendants out of 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 sapient population of the galaxy.

So yeah, several thousand paragons spread out throughout the galaxy doesn't seem crazy in my opinion with us only being weird in that we have so many in one place which is a very small polity when countring the whole trust with it being even more insane that most of them are from one planet. And that's not counting the crazy races created on Avernus which is an Old Ones bio lab that were the ones that created the Eldar and their gods and the Krork.

Ok I want the chaos polities in audited and fighting each other because they are the enemy. They attacked the Trust when we were fighting a Waagh. They are hostile and Keep sending spies to attack the trust. They are cuter musteer points for a black crusade against us. I can go on but it is best if they are fighting a civil war.

Why because they are the enemy and out to destroy the trust. I want the border of the trust secured because eventually they will attack the trust when the trust is weak or distracted. Liked when they recently sent raids against the Trust when the trust was busy fighting a Waagh ( to beat a dead horse).

Paragons are rare in the galaxy it is just that the trust is extremely lucky that the Emperor caused for these too happen. And Avernus seems to bring out the best in people or kills them.

Yes chaos is our enemy in general but that doesn't mean we should start shit with chaos in general by declaring war on chaos in general. Truth is that the closest chaos polities are at most an annoyance at the moment with it taking them a very long time to get to us and vice versa with them at the very best sending token raids. It's also extremely impractical for us to go to war with them due to the distance issue and us invading places that would take us ages to reach which would leave us vulnerable as hell because our armies and fleets would be away from the core worlds leaving us vulnerable to other enemies. And that's not taking into account grabbing way too much attention to us when they figure out we are involved and it spreads throughout the galaxy that we are picking fights with all of chaos which seems like it would get a Black Crusade sent after us because having a Ridcully tier seer along with DAoT messing with them seems like it would warrant that.

There is a reason even the canon Imperium of Man despite being extremely fanatical and xenophobic was pragmatic enough to not try to fight everyone and pick their battles. We are likely going to deal with the ones nearest to us in the future anyway when we start expanding but for the moment it's not really practical.
 
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How many relevant polities do you think there are though?
I think there are probably fewer the 100 transcendants just because they'll probably be canon characters.

I doubt that they would all be named characters considering that Arathea is one and she is an OC and it was noted that she isn't even the scariest thing on Avernus. We also have things like the Krok with the war hero leading them and we've seen that even in canon the highest tier Orks could give even the Primarchs a very hard fight. The Beast is an example of a high tier ork and he wasn't even a Krork and that was before the Orks awakened.

So thinking that while a large number Transcendants are mostly canon that we would be seeing OC ones as well. Especially taking into account places like Avernus.
 
As for refuting your earlier points, here goes:
  1. The 'assuming you're right, so what, we don't have any of them so it's not a problem' is wrong because we've been told we could make them and they would be practical. If we could make them and they defied how orbital mechanics in our world work, then that would mean that they don't apply here.
  2. Those are two Lagrange points (more on these later)—L1 and L2 under most common nomenclature—and the 'only' issues with having our shipyard there would be that you couldn't have minefields and defense stations around it effectively, as the spread needed to have coverage would mean you'd have mines going off in all sorts of odd orbits around either the moon or the planet, made worse by the fact that they're unstable Lagrange points. Some active stationkeeping by the yards in question would also be required. The main issue here is that we were told that the lifts themselves would be vulnerable, not that it would require moving our shipyard into a more vulnerable location (to say nothing of the issue if that would move the shipyard out from 'over' a city).
  3. If a moon isn't tidally locked it's a different matter, but that just means it goes from obviously and ludicrous impossible for a traditional geostationary orbit (which lets you be 'over' any part of the moon's equator) to merely highly unlikely. The Hill Sphere (which is the formula I used for figuring out the maximum distance of a stable orbit around a moon of a planet) is still fairly small for a moon, and unless it is itself spinning rapidly it's unlikely to be within it. As an aside, if the moon is NOT tidally locked, the Lagrange point cheat for a pseudo-geostationary orbit doesn't work.
  4. In this point you're either talking about the Lagrange points again or just orbiting the moon. There is nothing stopping you from orbiting the moon in workable orbits. The issue is that none of those keep you 'above' the same part of the moon (a requirement for any sort of spire/elevator). By orbiting the moon you are also orbiting the planet, as the moon is orbiting the planet. The issue is that if you get too far from the moon the forces the planet puts on you and the moon start to diverge beyond the ability of the moon's gravitation pull to compensate for, which causes you to transfer into a different orbit of the planet than the moon's.
  5. This point is that with the super-advanced reactors we can have our stuff be unstable orbits, which is true. However, as I pointed out, if lift/boosting was free there would be literally no point to an orbital elevator. If we have our shipyards in an unstable orbit, we would need to constantly boost all of our shipyards. Now, a bit of stationkeeping for something on that scale is fine, but to be enough to significantly change what orbits are okay would be far, far more thrust than taking parts up would be. Like, absurdly. All the time.
  6. You can orbit multiple objects at once—for example, the sun orbits the center of the galaxy, the earth orbits the sun, the moon orbits earth and the sun. The caveat is that effectively each object has a limited area where they are the thing that gets orbited, known as the Hill Sphere, and if you're outside of that you're just going to be orbiting the thing it orbits. Small (relatively speaking) moons around big gas giants do not have a very big Hill Sphere.
Now that I've hopefully cleared up any ambiguity on the points you brought up last post, let's move on to the current post's issues.

My point was not that having the docks in orbit around the moon of the gas giant was impossible, it was that having them in a geosynchronous orbit was, as no traditional stable geosynchronous orbits exist. The shipyards could be placed in a Lagrange Point (which is what the lunar elevator you linked uses), but in addition to mandating exactly what part of the surface of the moon they're 'above', generally speaking the stable members of these points (which would be required for any major defenses to be in place on location) are also far enough away from the moon in question that they would not be 'close' to the moon from a defensive (and to some extent a logistical) standpoint, and the limited size of the relevant points means that mining the approaches would be effectively impossible.

My understanding for how the current setup could work with our orbital mechanics would be if the space docks etc were in a relatively low and fast orbit around the moon, with higher orbits and the like holding defense stations and minefields. Even then you run into some issues with scale, but if you don't look too closely it seems okay. No need for rule of cool until you start talking about orbital lifts/spires from the surface of the moon to the heavily defended shipyards, at which point things start to get quite a bit more complicated.

As for the 'most moons' issues, this is the rule. There are, of course, exceptions to the rule. The thing is, an exception to the rule is the unlikely outcome. The idea of an orbital lift for our shipyards was not treated as something that a unique confluence of events made theoretically feasible, it was treated as something that could easily be on the upgrade path of any shipyard orbiting something, be it a moon of a gas giant or a planet.

Also, as I pointed out earlier, the Lagrange point approach flat out doesn't work for moons that are not tidally locked, and with the very limited size of the Hill Sphere of a moon orbiting a gas giant combined with the fact that the tidal forces are still going to have increased its rotational period even if it hasn't yet started to reach the point of tidal lock, the odds of a relatively stable geostationary orbit are still damn near nil.

alright, I think we are done, you have clarified what you are arguing I think

your point was on the practicality of it, I thought you were talking about the physical restrictions on mechanical stress's on space elevators caused by orbital-shinanigins.
 
Note that there could literally be thousands of Paragons and it would still be less than even a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of the whole galaxies population. Example, there are around a 60-100 billion people in the Trust with only around 40 planets and we ourselves only have around 15 human paragons out of all those people with around 9-10 of them being on the same planet(Avernus) and it should be noted that most of the worlds outside the core wolrds we have are only starter colonies.

The Imperium of man was noted to have had around one million worlds. The galaxy is freaking huge and the other polities that are truly massive have thousands of developed worlds and have been in war for ages. Chaos themselves have an immensely unfair advanatage in that their guys can be revived if they are high level unless they are killed with some serious fire power or bullshit like ours so we can guarantee that they have warriors that are thousands of years old and at least hundreds of paragons spread out all over the galaxy.

For Transcendants imagine that there would be around a hundred at the least. Though it should be pointed out that even if a 100 sounds like an insane amount that is when compared to the numbers of the whole galaxy with sapients in it numbering around quintillion IIRC. So there would be maybe 100 Transcendants out of 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 sapient population of the galaxy.

So yeah, several thousand paragons spread out throughout the galaxy doesn't seem crazy in my opinion with us only being weird in that we have so many in one place which is a very small polity when countring the whole trust with it being even more insane that most of them are from one planet. And that's not counting the crazy races created on Avernus which is an Old Ones bio lab that were the ones that created the Eldar and their gods and the Krork.
Yeah, pretty much what I'm thinking.

To add onto a few of these though.

1. Not only can chaos revive their mates they can also move them to where they need to be much more reliably than we can at least on a grand scale.
2. Also the revive thing means that they've potentially got a lot of old veterans. GC old.
3. Seems about right on the transcendent numbers, though I will note that many of these won't be things in the materium. Exalted Daemons are Transcendent, so that's a large chunk of them, the Phoenix Lords are transcendent, the remaining Primarch's (Daemon or otherwise) have apparently gone transcendent as well. And of course there's the Silent King. It's perhaps unsurprising that I can only think of three "mortal" transcendents, Bjorn, Eldrad and Areatha, and only a handful of transcendent candidates. Unfortunately most of them are chaotic.

I think there are probably fewer the 100 transcendants just because they'll probably be canon characters.
Not necessarily, the Abomination ain't cannon and he's got trancendents :D

But, yeah 100 is basically the maximum I'd say.

But, I don't think a lot of the people I think you're thinking of are Transcendent. Though Chaos does likely have the largest number of them followed by the Eldar.

I doubt that they would all be named characters considering that Arathea is one and she is an OC and it was noted that she isn't even the scariest thing on Avernus. We also have things like the Krok with the war hero leading them and we've seen that even in canon the highest tier Orks could give even the Primarchs a very hard fight. The Beast is an example of a high tier ork and he wasn't even a Krork and that was before the Orks awakened.
Actually Gahrozane isn't a Transcendent. Pretty sure he's paragon, but Durin was very clear on that.

Also the Krork are not the Beast of M32, neither for that matter are they the Beasts of now.

According to him the M32 Beast was effectively a trauma induced defence mechanism against the Ork's getting their asses kicked so hard at Ullanor, which reawakened dormant Krorky bits. Essentially a monstrous combination of Krork and Orks...so not really an ork, but...well you get the point.

Also explains why the Eldar had to kill a Beast every few hundred-thousand years, cause everyone once in a while they'd be humiliated so thoroughly and a new Beast would arrise.

There is a reason even the canon Imperium of Man despite being extremely fanatical and xenophobic was pragmatic enough to not try to fight everyone and pick their battles. We are likely going to deal with the ones nearest to us in the future anyway when we start expanding but for the moment it's not really practical.
Nah it is practical, it just may not be advisable.

There maybe better investments of our time ect.
 
Others we may not, like those termites you created.
Actually, that was a Durin invention. He told me to add the stuff in that line in the omake to make it canon.

However, these are all events on a lesser, but similarish scale to the Daemonic incursion, so what I think you're really asking is why are not getting more events like that? Cause none of these are related to the wildlife, not really.
They're all related to Avernus, though. The point is to make living on Avernus something we have to put more of our focus into because of how deadly it is.
 
Actually, that was a Durin invention. He told me to add the stuff in that line in the omake to make it canon.
Oh really? Sorry about that then.

They're all related to Avernus, though. The point is to make living on Avernus something we have to put more of our focus into because of how deadly it is.
More of our focus, mate we already spend most of our time and budget with the view of making the place liveable and clamping down on the problems setting foot on planet causes.

That it translates well to things like seeing off an Abomination invasion is really just a side benefit in the grand scheme of things, its not what the walls or wards were built for (The Vegetation/Herbivores/Turtles/ect and Daemonic Incursions/Beta psykers usually respectively.)

I personally don't feel the need for a reminder that we're the bottom of the food chain, and if an event comes along to remind us in a harsher way, well I guess we'll have to make do. If Durin's random event spitter outer has a thing for Incursions, it almost certainly has multiple for "Avernus does something nasty...ier than normal" our number just hasn't come up yet, when it does Planet Mind be merciful.
 
Oh really? Sorry about that then.


More of our focus, mate we already spend most of our time and budget with the view of making the place liveable and clamping down on the problems setting foot on planet causes.

That it translates well to things like seeing off an Abomination invasion is really just a side benefit in the grand scheme of things, its not what the walls or wards were built for (The Vegetation/Herbivores/Turtles/ect and Daemonic Incursions/Beta psykers usually respectively.)

I personally don't feel the need for a reminder that we're the bottom of the food chain, and if an event comes along to remind us in a harsher way, well I guess we'll have to make do. If Durin's random event spitter outer has a thing for Incursions, it almost certainly has multiple for "Avernus does something nasty...ier than normal" our number just hasn't come up yet, when it does Planet Mind be merciful.
"The planet has found out poetry, lose Dis to insanity and gibbering."
 
They're all related to Avernus, though. The point is to make living on Avernus something we have to put more of our focus into because of how deadly it is.

...We have literally spent hundreds of years and a fuck ton of resources just to survive on Avernus. We have had to deal with things like having insane amounts of cultists for the first centuries and it's still a big problem each time a chaos invasion happens, we have had immense problems with psykers over our vey long time on Avernus to the point that they are the ones responsible for the biggest kill count with hundreds of millions of kills over the centuries. Hell, literally all our casualties are caused by wildlife with no one dying of old age which is horrifying when you think about it.

It says a lot that the greatest armies of the Trust have nearly always suffered more casualties from the wildlife than from other wars to the point people have joked that fighting wars away from Avernus is practically a vacation. Avernus is so dangerous that the other planetary rulers are reluctant to have their people sent their due to them suffering heavy casualties from just the wildlife. Avernus is so dangerous that it was noted that if the rest of the Trust were forced into a war with us that even if they did win it would take them centuries to recover.

So yes, we have indeed spent literally centuries focusing on our defenses and it shows with how insanely strong our defenses are and the fact that an eliter DAoT outfitted elite army still suffer millions of casualties a year from just the wildlife.
 
@Durin
1. Barring the War in the Void do Trust experts think we could make an intergalatic trip, if needed to abandon galaxy?
2. Theoretically is there a point outside of the galaxy where the Warp is placid like it was prewar in heaven, as there was not enough sentient emotions to stir it up and corrupt it like it is in the galaxy.
 
As far as trying to assassinate the leaders of nearby Chaos polities goes, I'd like to hold back until we're actually in a position to follow up.

Our last few defensive wars have really highlighted just how important kill squads/battlefield assassinations are for us, and the attrition rate there is substantially worse than our normal troops, with the replacement time longer as well. Given that assassination missions to an external polity are basically a one way trip, I'd really prefer to just keep our own numbers up rather than the debatable benefits from a lack of stability in the neighboring Chaos polities without any plans to move in and take advantage of it.

Given the internal power struggles that are the norm for Chaos, as well as the general situation of the galaxy, I imagine that while the realms aren't exactly ignoring us (we're a clear and present existential threat to them), they're also tied up with more immediate concerns. I'd rather they continue to only make probing attacks of opportunity, which we've been able to handle without issue, than to potentially trigger a more effective response.
 
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@Red Bovine the best battle is one you do not have to fight. I do it want to make war on them. I want to keep them to busy to do anything else. Constantly fighting with each other and for them to waste resources.

They may just be a annoyance but if we get a Waagh with War Boss as dangerous as Headcrusha with intelligents we are going to take a beating that would make the Trust vulnerable. Vulnerable enough for chaos to be a major threat. We just lost a fourth of the fleet and will need decades to rebuild. What we have can take on either but death from a thousand cuts is a real strategy.

The chaos polities are actively trying to hurt the trust. You may consider them a annoyance but every raid we do not fight is a raid that we do not have to rebuild. If we can get 50 years of peace real peace we could get a fleet and military strong enough to actually to be a major threat to the trusts enemies.

The point of killing the leaders and starting civil wars and infaction fighting is so that we do not have to worry about that. We do not have the resources right now to reclaim all those worlds because of the effect of chaos corruptionmd limited logistics. Which is why I want to take on a addendum to the Credit union bill for the subsideries for forges, Avernus Goliath ships, ship yards and merchant ships through a VATs (consumption) tax on luxury goods. So the trust can eventually get powerful enough to take Tugozak realm. A realm that does not have chaos corruption but many worlds we can use to grow more powerful. In order to do that we will need a large fleet, a good logistics chain and for the enemies of the trust to be too busy to attack the trust.

One of the best strategies is to keep your enemy fighting themselves or fighting someone else. Because that is resources they cannot turn against you. Like how use one faction of a war in order to insure that they cannot become powerful enough to hurt you. Also I cannot stress enough how both of those polities can be used as a base to attack the Trust in the event of a black crusade. But if they are bombed out shit holes they become less valuable.

Also thes epart is pure speculation but I think that Turoq realm has some weapon that is sending the Waaghs at the Trust. The Trust has gotten hit by two different waaghs after the Green awakening and not other polity we know in the region has been hit. Not even the other ork realm that both waaghs passed to attack the trust.
 
@Red Bovine the best battle is one you do not have to fight. I do it want to make war on them. I want to keep them to busy to do anything else. Constantly fighting with each other and for them to waste resources.

They may just be a annoyance but if we get a Waagh with War Boss as dangerous as Headcrusha with intelligents we are going to take a beating that would make the Trust vulnerable. Vulnerable enough for chaos to be a major threat. We just lost a fourth of the fleet and will need decades to rebuild. What we have can take on either but death from a thousand cuts is a real strategy.

The chaos polities are actively trying to hurt the trust. You may consider them a annoyance but every raid we do not fight is a raid that we do not have to rebuild. If we can get 50 years of peace real peace we could get a fleet and military strong enough to actually to be a major threat to the trusts enemies.

The point of killing the leaders and starting civil wars and infaction fighting is so that we do not have to worry about that. We do not have the resources right now to reclaim all those worlds because of the effect of chaos corruptionmd limited logistics. Which is why I want to take on a addendum to the Credit union bill for the subsideries for forges, Avernus Goliath ships, ship yards and merchant ships through a VATs (consumption) tax on luxury goods. So the trust can eventually get powerful enough to take Tugozak realm. A realm that does not have chaos corruption but many worlds we can use to grow more powerful. In order to do that we will need a large fleet, a good logistics chain and for the enemies of the trust to be too busy to attack the trust.

One of the best strategies is to keep your enemy fighting themselves or fighting someone else. Because that is resources they cannot turn against you. Like how use one faction of a war in order to insure that they cannot become powerful enough to hurt you. Also I cannot stress enough how both of those polities can be used as a base to attack the Trust in the event of a black crusade. But if they are bombed out shit holes they become less valuable.

Also thes epart is pure speculation but I think that Turoq realm has some weapon that is sending the Waaghs at the Trust. The Trust has gotten hit by two different waaghs after the Green awakening and not other polity we know in the region has been hit. Not even the other ork realm that both waaghs passed to attack the trust.

First off we aren't even sure if Turoq is actually responsible for the Ork attacks, in fact it was implied that it was just bad luck and a sort of new normal. Speculating that any random enemy may be behind any attack is a bad idea since that is just going off of pure speculation and for all we know the weapon doesn't work like anything we expect. If they did send the Orks I'd assuem that Ridcully would have noticed when we had him do actions looking them over.

Second you are really underestimating how hard it would be to actually send assasins to a polity that is extremely far away from us. It would be a collosal issue in that our assasins would likely be corrupted before they got anywhere near their targets since theye would need to actually find a way to get them and chaos corruption makes it hard. There is also the fact that we would need to likely spend a ton of Ridcully actions to make the whole thing practical and it's honestly a waste on a polity that isn't even hostile to us.

Third the distance thing means that the chaos polities also have a hard time reaching us as well which isn't any easier for them to solve since they don't have supply lines either. They also don't have our high production either so they are likely to be more reluctant to risk getting their navy destroyed by sending them against a well fortified area like the Trust worlds. It would also likely have the same problem in that they would make themselves vulnerable by sending enough ships to actually be a threat which is actually a lot and it runs into the supply problem from distance.

Fourth I mentioned that chaos polities have seers with them and us continuing to mess with them is likely going to get noticed. It also may run into the issues that we may end up accidently making things worse unless we dedicate a ton of actions to it. We can do fanning the flames against the orks easily enough because they are kind of dumb and don't have people that can actually tell if something is messing with them and they are actually a threat that we can't ignore and are more immediate. If they notice us messing with them then they are pretty much forced to act since we are actively starting shit with them.

Fifth the raids don't actually seem to do much damage at all. Likely because they are aware of how fortified our worlds are to the point that they had to result to do it when we had our fleet fighting a war at the time.

Sixth, if we are going to get attacked pretty sure the Order of Omens would give us at least a decades warning at which point it would actually warrant us sending assasins and having Ridcully fan the flames since there wouldn't be a need for subtlety anymore.

So once again I say that it would probably be more practical to just wait until we expand a bit and only start shit with them if we have to.
 
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Third the distance thing means that the chaos polities also have a hard time reaching us as well which isn't any easier for them
Yes it is. Chaos is way, way faster in Warp than we are, all of the nearby Chaos polities can reach us in weeks.

EDIT: According to Durin it would take weeks for fleets from Atlas (which is 500lys away), so Turoq (which is 130lys away) and Demagoye (which is 110lys away and controls a daemonworld 40-50lys away) will have even easier time reaching us.
 
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First off we aren't even sure if Turoq is actually responsible for the Ork attacks, in fact it was implied that it was just bad luck and a sort of new normal. Speculating that any random enemy may be behind any attack is a bad idea since that is just going off of pure speculation and for all we know the weapon doesn't work like anything we expect. If they did send the Orks I'd assuem that Ridcully would have noticed when we had him do actions looking them over.

Second you are really underestimating how hard it would be to actually send assasins to a polity that is extremely far away from us. It would be a collosal issue in that our assasins would likely be corrupted before they got anywhere near their targets since theye would need to actually find a way to get them and chaos corruption makes it hard. There is also the fact that we would need to likely spend a ton of Ridcully actions to make the whole thing practical and it's honestly a waste on a polity that isn't even hostile to us.

Third the distance thing means that the chaos polities also have a hard time reaching us as well which isn't any easier for them to solve since they don't have supply lines either. They also don't have our high production either so they are likely to be more reluctant to risk getting their navy destroyed by sending them against a well fortified area like the Trust worlds. It would also likely have the same problem in that they would make themselves vulnerable by sending enough ships to actually be a threat which is actually a lot and it runs into the supply problem from distance.

Fourth I mentioned that chaos polities have seers with them and us continuing to mess with them is likely going to get noticed. It also may run into the issues that we may end up accidently making things worse unless we dedicate a ton of actions to it. We can do fanning the flames against the orks easily enough because they are kind of dumb and don't have people that can actually tell if something is messing with them and they are actually a threat that we can't ignore and are more immediate. If they notice us messing with them then they are pretty much forced to act since we are actively starting shit with them.

Fifth the raids don't actually seem to do much damage at all. Likely because they are aware of how fortified our worlds are to the point that they had to result to do it when we had our fleet fighting a war at the time.

Sixth, if we are going to get attacked pretty sure the Order of Omens would give us at least a decades warning at which point it would actually warrant us sending assasins and having Ridcully fan the flames since there wouldn't be a need for subtlety anymore.

So once again I say that it would probably be more practical to just wait until we expand a bit and only start shit with them if we have to.
The inquisition is willing to send teams to kill chaos leaders, Durin already states that. We need Ridicully setting the work up years or decades in advance in order to find out who needs to be killed and where they will be. Than position kill teams in place to do that. These will take several turns to put into place. But with the best mortal seer it becomes a lot easier.

If we wait till the Trust is ready to expand that is far too late to expand. The trust is far too passive and if not for the tech gap and hero's the trust would have been wiped out already. These will literally take decades to set up and needs the council approval.

The ideal situation would be civil wars started in the chaos polities decades in advance followed by tanking a Waagh from Orks than invasion while Ridicully draws out the civil wars securing the flanks on the Trust while the Trust expands. The Trust has been far to passive to survive and just waiting while they grow stronger is a strategic mistake. You do not accomplish anything by being passive. You get stuff done by having a plan and doing them.

Edit. It has been stated but chaos has a mobility advantage that the trust does not have.
 
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First off we aren't even sure if Turoq is actually responsible for the Ork attacks, in fact it was implied that it was just bad luck and a sort of new normal. Speculating that any random enemy may be behind any attack is a bad idea since that is just going off of pure speculation and for all we know the weapon doesn't work like anything we expect. If they did send the Orks I'd assuem that Ridcully would have noticed when we had him do actions looking them over.

I do kinda think its valid to think that we are getting hit by orks a little too often.....the orks are bigger/more common/badder/whatever, so they should be hitting other targets more too....not just us
...so the fact that we have gotten hit twice since the awakening but not heard of the others getting hit does seem a bit suspect ......actually.......@durin ......actually ....HAVE we heard of our neighbors getting hit and it just did not come up?

plus, when we search for this we will likely find other information about what exactly the secret weapon that tzeeach has (I vaguely recall that we were told that they have one) and I think that DEFINITELY deserves a divination turn.....maybe two since we know tzeetch thinks that we are a galatic threat for some reason......

to be honest, I'm not entirely sure whats going on with this whole discussion so I'm probly not going to vote for anything when it comes up.......I'm just going to bring it up and hope other people duke it out on this ....and hope people actually explain this stuff properly.....
 
Speaking of people getting hit by WAAGHS, while it stinks of pulling an Eldar to me, we really need to trade tech with the other human remnants. They probably have stuff we want, and empowering them so that that one WAAGH working towards Beast-levels doesn't wreck the galaxy before we can do anything about it is only in our best interest. Er, how do we do that exactly by the way?

I checked, and the Diplomacy and Telepathica options don't have anything on that.
 
The inquisition is willing to send teams to kill chaos leaders, Durin already states that. We need Ridicully setting the work up years or decades in advance in order to find out who needs to be killed and where they will be. Than position kill teams in place to do that. These will take several turns to put into place. But with the best mortal seer it becomes a lot easier.

Just because they are willing doesn't mean it's a good idea at the moment unless we actualy plan to act immediately. And kind of proving my point with Ridcully needing to spend a lot of time on something that isn't an immediate problem. And like I said, it's way more complicated compared to Orks who are pretty simple. Made even more complicated in that chaos has seers and killing their leaders is still complicated. Hell the time we needed to kill that Ork warboss was complicated itself with it taking a Ridcully action to kill one guy and we still lost high level agents, against chaos we also have to deal with corruption memetic bullshit.

Don't think it's worth all the Ridcully actions spent on that that could be spent on other things. Like working on stuff that would make us more effective or looking into actually more immediate threats.

Edit. It has been stated but chaos has a mobility advantage that the trust does not have.

It's still quite a bit away for them and they still have no supply lines. There is a reason we don't have to worry as much about getting invaded by the rest of the nearest chaos polities. Not to mention that the last time they sent a raid they got wrecked so they likely don't think it's worth it unless they send a real fleet and we likely would see that coming.

If we wait till the Trust is ready to expand that is far too late to expand.

Why? We have insane growth and we are likely to make a tech trade that would boost us and all our worlds including their defenses making an invasion from the nearest chaos polities even harder. Especially taking into account that we may form a real allience with Dragons Nest.

The trust is far too passive and if not for the tech gap and hero's the trust would have been wiped out already. These will literally take decades to set up and needs the council approval.

The ideal situation would be civil wars started in the chaos polities decades in advance followed by tanking a Waagh from Orks than invasion while Ridicully draws out the civil wars securing the flanks on the Trust while the Trust expands. The Trust has been far to passive to survive and just waiting while they grow stronger is a strategic mistake. You do not accomplish anything by being passive. You get stuff done by having a plan and doing them.

...What? The Trust is not at all passive. So far the Trust has decided to try to contact the nearest human polities to make defense pacts and potential future alliences when the warp storm ended, made it so that the core worlds would all have armies ready to defend them, decided to warn every other polity including the non human ones minus chaos, went on the offensive and wiped out all the nearby Ork domains they can, voted to go to war with Valinor after they pissed off the Trust by trying to kill Ridcully and to take advantage of their weakness then claiming many of their worlds, several members are pushing for progressive views including the head of the AdMech and finally we are looking to convince them to do tech trade with the major human polities including the Primarchs. Not to mention the Roksilde expedition coming up.

Waiting to get stronger isn't a terrible strategic mistake. It just makes perfect sense since as has been mentioned many, many times before we are freaking tiny compared to most of the long term players in the rest of the galaxy due to us being mostly trapped in a warp storm for the equivelent of a 1000 years to the rest of the galaxy which likely helped out a lot ironically since it meant we couldn't get invaded by everyone else until we were way more developed. Avoiding doing things that would put a huge target on our backs while we build up makes perfect sense since grabbing too much attention too soon is a good way to get curbstomped by the way bigger players.
 
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